How to offset a high FG.....ahead of time.

[sfrisby]

I am doing a big brew with 12 lbs LME, 2 LBS DME, 3 lbs grains, and 3 oz hopps with 32 IBUs.

The calculators give a OG of 1.12 and FG of 1.035. I expect that to be a little too sweet so I was looking at replacing a lb of DME with a lb of corn sugar. However, the calculators say that really won't impact the FG much. I was then looking at lowering my mash temp to about 150 to leave less unfermentables. Would that do enough, or, understanding I am very much not a hoppy beer kind of guy, can I add another oz. or so of hopps to offset the sweetness of the FG a bit?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Yooper]

I am doing a big brew with 12 lbs LME, 2 LBS DME, 3 lbs grains, and 3 oz hopps with 32 IBUs.

The calculators give a OG of 1.12 and FG of 1.035. I expect that to be a little too sweet so I was looking at replacing a lb of DME with a lb of corn sugar. However, the calculators say that really won't impact the FG much. I was then looking at lowering my mash temp to about 150 to leave less unfermentables. Would that do enough, or, understanding I am very much not a hoppy beer kind of guy, can I add another oz. or so of hopps to offset the sweetness of the FG a bit?

Thanks for any help.

Brewing software is useless for predicting FG anyway. It just gives you the same number for the FG whether you are using crystal malt, extract, or sugar. Of course, we all know that you will NOT get the same FG with different ingredients. So forget that any calculator ever gave you a predicted FG. Lowering the mash temp in 3 pounds of grain will have a negligle effect, since you have 15 pounds of extract!

32 IBUS in an over 1.100 beer will give you a very sweet beer to begin with. It that's what you want, that's fine but I'd definitely suggest using some simple sugars in place of some of the extract, using a very attenuative yeast strain and a humongous starter, and making sure to aerate well.

 

[rjwhite41]

That is a very large brew and without going all grain and I would fear that you would stall out even before 1.035. I also think that your recipe calculator is off since it is figure the same fermentability for corn sugar as it does for extract, which is most certainly not the case. The corn sugar would help dry it out a bit. You could add more hops to balance the sweetness as well. What kind of yeast are you using? Are you making a starter or pitching onto a yeast cake? These are very important parts of the equation. I'm an all grain guy so has anyone else here tried to make an extract that big? If so, what was the result?

Edit: Yooper's faster than I am.

 

[sfrisby]

The plan was 2 packs of Nottingham yeast, rehydrated.

So maybe replace 1 lb of DME with 1 lb corn sugar and upping to 4oz hopps (3 oz Mt Hood for 60 min, 1 oz EKG 20 mins) which raises the IBU's to 46.

 

[Frodo]

1) Use a high attenuating yeast
2) Raise the fermentation temp a little nearing the end of fermentation so it ends at the high side of the yeasts temp range, usually close to 70F for ales
3) Add some highly fermentable sugar like corn sugar
4) Use the lightest LME and DME you can find

I looked up some high gravity ale recipes in Zainasheff's book Brewing Classic Styles. The book is awesome BTW, highly recommended. It's based around brewing with extract.

An example recipe American Barleywine is OG 1.115, FG 1.022. 99 IBU for this particular style and recipe. He uses 16.7 lbs Light LME, 1 lb corn sugar, and 2.5 lbs of steeping grains. 21 grams of properly rehydrated dry yeast or 4 vials of liquid yeast (or an appropriate starter - probably nearly a gallon for this high an OG). Ferment at 68F with California ale yeast like WLP001 (liquid) or US-05 (dry). This was just an example. In his Belgian dark strong ale recipe (OG 1.103 FG 1.024) its 11.5 lbs Pilsener LME, 2 lbs Munich LME, 1/2 lb Wheat LME, and 1 lb cane sugar, with 3.5 lb of steeping grains, Begin fermenting at 68F and let rise to 72F for the last third of fermentation, using abbey ale yeast or Safbrew T-58.

 

[sfrisby]

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I really appreciate it and I absolutly expect it to help.

Two questions:

1) Reading, it seems I want to give the carboy a good swirl every now and then to help keep the yeast in suspension. Once fermentation has forced the oxygen out of the carboy, I assume there is no real risk by agrivating the brew.

2)If I find fermentation stalls, would adding a packet of champaine yeast offer any help in getting it restarted?

Thanks again for your ideas.

 

[flabyboy]

that is a ton of extract. I think I would decrease the LME before the DME.

 

[sfrisby]

After all the reviews and recommendations I did some tweaking and came up with the following. Thanks to everyone who offered ideas and suggestions. I really appreciate the feedback. For the $ going into this one, I really want it to come out well.

6 lb light LME
4 lb Amber LME
2 lb light DME
1 lb 2-row
1 lb 40L
2 lb german munich
1 lb corn sugar
1/4 lb Special B.
2 packs dry Nottingham rehydrated

Changing to more Munich, 2 row, ect...really is lightening up the beer so I am adding the 1/4 special B to darken it just enough to give it a nice orangish/copperish color for a pumpkin beer.

I was orginally planning on 2 oz mt. hood (60 min) and 1 oz EKG (20 min). However I was thinking of upping it to 3 oz. mt. hood if it ends at a higher FG to balance out the sweetness a bit. With the above changes, it may have a lower FG and end up with a beer that is (for me) to hoppy at 88 IBU's according to the software (which you already said is mostly useless). So, I thought I would wait until it is ready to bottle, do a FG and if it is to high, dry hop into the bottling bucket. Never tried dry hopping before, but this may be a good time to, if it is needed.

 

[Frodo]

I didn't realize you were doing a partial mash. In case you didn't know, the 2-row and Munich need to be mashed to convert the starches to sugars. (If you do a partial mash just throw the other grains in with the partial mash too by the way). Mashing requires close attention to temperature; steeping on the other hand is more simple - you're just dissolving sugars and flavor compounds that are already there when you're steeping. Mashing is converting starches to sugars, and temperature is a major factor in determining enzyme activity and the ratio of fermentable sugars produced vs unfermentable sugars. If you do your partial mash closer to 149F for 1 hour (mash at between 1 and 2 qts of water per lb of grain), that will make the sugars from the 2-row and munich more fermentable than if they were mashed at a higher temp; however, that said the 2 lbs of base malts (2-row and munich) aren't going to be contributing a high percentage of the sugars anyway, so it really won't matter a whole lot in comparison to the percentage fermentables vs. unfermentables coming from the LME and DME...

I was a bit confused about your "hoppiness" comments and FG/IBU. In my opinion, "hoppiness" isn't measured in IBUs... I don't think anyone has developed a system for quantifying "hoppiness". Bittering hop additions contribute to IBUs, and they help balance out the sweetness of the beer. If it's a hop that's a "clean" bittering hop, in my opinion it contributes no flavor or aroma; it only adds bitterness. I've made extremely bitter beers that have basically no "hoppiness" since all of the hop additions were at 60 minutes with none for flavor or aroma. Flavor hop additions are typically added at less than 20 minutes left in the boil, and aroma hop additions at less than about 10 minutes. These timescales are on a continuum though; some flavor will come from a 40 minute addition, and some will come from a 5 minute addition; but it's really a matter of degree. Dry hops are very much just an aroma hop. They might help balance out a cloying sweet beer, but not by much... It's important to figure out how much bitterness you need to balance the sweetness for the particular style you're going for, then determine how much "hoppiness" you want and add taste and aroma hop additions accordingly. "Hoppiness" to me is taste and aroma, not bitterness (i.e. IBUs).

 

[sfrisby]

Frodo-

I guess I have always related hoppiness to the amount of hopps in the brew, which gives the IBU's. To me the bitterness level is what makes a beer hoppy. From my persepective, I guess I would relate it to Sierra Nevada Hoptimum that just hit shelves. With 100 IBU's I would expect it to be very bitter and "hoppy". I guess I need to hit the beer bars more and learn a little more about the difference between bitter and hoppy.

Thanks for the input, suggestions, and recommendations. I know it will all help in getting this brew done right.

 

[indigi]

Get some amylase enzyme and pour a teaspoon or two of that into the brew pot with the extract for about a half hour at 150* while your grains steep in another pot, then combine and fire up the boil. I did this with a 100% extract saison with a 1.070 OG and it finished at 1.004. You wouldn't even need to thin it out with sugar.

 

[sfrisby]

Indigi- Thanks for the tip. And if you don't mind me bouncing ideas around....

Frodo-you were the one, on another topic, suggested corn sugar. Do you share Indigi's opinion that I can add some amylase enzyme with the extract at the beginning and accomplish the same thing as using corn sugar with out thinning it out?

 

[Frodo]

I've never used amylase enzyme, so no advice. But it sounds like something you might want to be really sure you know how to use (amounts, timing, etc) if it can bring a 1.070 extract batch down to 1.004. Seems like it'd have potential for leaving the alcohol pretty hot to me if it went too low.

 

[indigi]

There's not too much solid information out there about it, unfortunately. The big breweries and brewpubs usually turn to it as an option of last resort because unless you can boil it or pasteurize/otherwise remove the yeast from the beer, it won't stop fermenting until the beer is bone dry. Since it's the last defense to dumping out a batch of beer, it usually means something else has gone wrong. Brewpubs can add it to the fermenter and as it nears their desired FG, keg it and put it in the fridge to slow down enzyme/yeast activity so it won't become too thin.

The enzyme I got was from Austin Homebrew and, combined with a high-attenuating yeast strain and warm warm temperatures (78+*), really kicked it into overdrive. You could only treat half the extract, or add the enzyme at 162*+ so it'll denature more quickly and not tear your dextrins to shreds. If you're going to be steeping grains, though, or hold some extract back to add in the last 15 minutes of the boil, you almost certainly won't dry it out to 1.004.

 

[sjbeerman]

I may be a noobie here, but are you making a HUGE starter for this brew? Also, are you using pure O2 to oxygenate because oxygen dissolves less in brews with very high amounts of sugar. Another thing worth mentioning is that according to JZ, restarting a stuck fermentation using dry yeast (i.e., champagne yeast) doesn't really work unless the wort has a high amount of simple sugars (corn or cane sugar). Although I think the ingredients in your brew are important, I would also focus on the health of the yeast going into the wort as that will be the main factor in producing the brew that you are really looking for. Just my 2 cents worth...

 

[bigjoe]

I've got 80% attenuation with notty. I haven't brewed a beer that big with it though. If you did get 80% that would still leave you at 1.024 if my calculations are correct

If it were me I'd up the IBU's. Maybe something like 80 IBU's, and thats not going to give you a very hoppy beer. I'm going on my experience with lower gravity beers. For example my wit beer starts at 1.050 and ends up at 1.010 usually. I have 20 IBU's in that beer. Hops are not noticeable at all. So in a beer that's over twice the gravity at 1.120 I'd go with a lot more than 30 IBU's. On the other hand my APA starts at a slightly higher gravity - 1.056. I don't like an APA that drinks like an IPA so usually I'll go with around 50 IBU's for a beer that has noticeable bitterness and hop flavor.

As for a 100 IBU beer being hoppy and bitter it depends on the reference. In my example above 100 IBU's in either of those beers with the same starting gravity would be very bitter. However, 100 IBU's in a 1.120 starting gravity beer the bitterness might not really be in your face.

I'm just curious what style this beer is going to be?

 

[sfrisby]

Idigi-I will be steeping 4.25lb of grain for 12 lb of extract. Hopefully that will be enough to not dry it out then if I add it to the extract at 162* for 30 min before the boil.

SJBeerman-I am using 2 packs of dry Nottingham, rehydrated for 5 gallons. I oxygenate by putting on the airlock and rigorously rocking the carboy for a couple of minutes.

BigJoe-This is a Bourbon Barrel Pumpkin Ale. Adding Makers, spices, wood chips, and cooked canned pumpkin all in the secondary.

Ok...I think I got everybody! Thanks for all the participation.

 

[bigjoe]

I just plugged your recipe into a calculator. It comes out to 12.1%. That's a lot of alcohol, AND your adding Makers Mark. WOW!!

How long do you plan to let this sit before drinking? I guess I should say how many years do you plan on letting it sit?

I'd still plan to add at least another ounce if not 2 at 60 minutes. The long condition period will mellow the hops even of you add too much.

 

[sfrisby]

Bigjoe-

LOL. The plan is around Halloween so we have a good 9 months before anything gets cracked open. But I think you are right, it will be even better NEXT Halloween!

 

[indigi]

Seconding (thirding?) the recommendation to add more hops. Maybe even double your IBUs. By Halloween, 60-70 IBUs will only taste like 40-50, and by next Halloween it'll be about half that.

 

[sfrisby]

Well today was brew day! I want to thank everyone for the input that went towards the brew. After everyone's tips, the final recipe was as follows:

Bourbon Barrel Pumpkin Ale

6 lb light LME
4 lb Amber LME
2 lb light DME
1 lb 2-row
1 lb 40L
2 lb german munich
1/4 lb Special B.
2 packs dry Nottingham rehydrated
3 oz. Mt. Hood (60 min)
1 oz. Liberty (60 min)
1 oz. EKG (20)

The main difference from the last ingredient list was an extra oz of hopps. The Liberty brought the total to 67 IBU's. And as sweet as the wort was, wow! Maybe should have used more.

Taking the suggestions here as well some tips from a local homebrew club that met a couple of nights ago.....

The biggest concern was the risk of the yeast crapping out too early and I was told to add 1 lb. corn sugar (which would dilute the beer) or add amalyse enzyme (which could extremely dry out the beer). I decided to split the difference and use 1/2 lb corn sugar and 1/2 the recommendation of amalyse enzyme.

Steeped grains at 150 for 60 min
Sparged with another gallon of 160* water
In a second pot put 1/2 tsp amalyse enzyme with the liquid and dry extract and held at 162 for 30 min, then added to the brew pot along with the 4 oz. bittering hopps to begin the boil.

At 40 min. added the EKG hopps
At 50 min. added irish moss

Shook the carboy like it owes me money for a few min.

Reydrated the nottingham and pitched the yeast

3-5 days into fermentation, will dissolve 1/2 lb corn sugar in some water and add to carboy

1 month later, I will move to secondary and add 60oz canned pumpkin baked at 350 for 30 min and then dissovled in some water to be able to get it into the carboy along with 1.5 oz oak chips, 2 cups Makers that at that point will have been marinated for 6 weeks with vanilla beans, cinn sticks, fresh nutmeg, and whole allspice. Also in the secondary will be separate vanilla beans, cinn sticks, and fresh nutmeg.

OG by design was about 1.12. Actual was 1.10. Wort was 3 gallons, needing 2 gallons of bottled water. I never get the expected OG.....I suck. As long as it tastes good in the end....

Did a second chicken choke on the carboy at 3 hour post pitch mark.

Will do a third 3 hours later, right before bed.

 

[bigjoe]

Good to see you added more hops. Did you take into consideration that you only added half the corn sugar on your gravity reading? A beer that big whats .005 anyway

 

[JNye]

might research the bourbon addition. I did Denny Conn's Bourbon Vanilla Imperial Porter with 1.5 cups on a 5 gallons batch, and although it turned out great, the bourbon was by far the most upfront flavor. With all that you got going on in this recipe, you may want to back that off. I know when I do the BVIP again I'll use 1 cup. Good luck, if nothing else this beer will prolly make good hottie totties.

 

[sfrisby]

If anyone is interested, I bottled this beer today. Ended with a FG of 1.024.

"I've got 80% attenuation with notty. I haven't brewed a beer that big with it though. If you did get 80% that would still leave you at 1.024 if my calculations are correct"-BigJoe

Ahhem, not bad BigJoe. That's some pretty good math.

If anyone is interested should anyone try to do a big beer like this, my method was as follows:

OG 1.10 FG 1.024 Est. 10.1%ABV

Added 1 tsp amayse enzyme to dissolved extract and held at 150 for 30 min while performing mini mash. Then, added it to brewpot.

Pitched 2 packs of rehydrated Nottingham and shook VIGOROUSLY.

After 3 hours shook it again.

After 6 hours shook it again.

After 3 days I added 1/2 cup of corn sugar, dissolved, to primary and gently swirled to mix it in.

Racked in secondary onto a yeast cake of a second beer with nottingham that I just racked to secondary.

You folks that helped me a couple months ago may already know these tricks, but I am sure someone will be searching one day for a plan that worked like this for a big beer.

I think I would like to try maybe 1 big beer a year and my next one will certainly repeat these steps.

Happy brewing!

 

[Flywheel]

Did you taste a sample?

 

[sfrisby]

I did and it was ok. The bourbon and oak wasn't as noticeable as I was expecting. Certainly drinkable, but not quite the oomph I was looking for.