How to make AMAZING IPA

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If it's like bong water though there could be some wild yeast in there maybe?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew
 
beerkench said:
Maybe you are over carbonating?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew
Click to expand...

beerkench said:
If it's like bong water though there could be some wild yeast in there maybe?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew
Click to expand...

Over-carbonating wouldn't lead to a bittering taste. At least, not that I've ever heard of.
It's not an infection. Guaranteed.

I know all brewers say "I'm so OCD about sanitization", but we are, and for that to be true, it would've had to have been across multiple batches (since this has been a reoccurring problem).
I also have a kitchen lab I use for yeast propagation/testing, and I'd dare to say that the yeast/fermentation side of things is my strong suit in brewing. (whereas the water chem is obviously my weakest point, and likely to be why the beer is suffering)
We have not had any (unintentional) infections to date. *knocks on wood*
 
StopTakingMyUsername said:
So I could look into something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J2DGTD8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Now if we run our water through that, should I assume that all mineral profiles are at 0, and build up to my target water profile from there?

This is probably a dumb question, but how do you buy RO water from the store? Can you just go into Safeway and they have gallon jugs of it?
I'm pretty confident that no one will know what I'm talking about if I ask lo

Yes RO levels are at zero that's why a lot of people use it because they can then build the water to fit whatever beer they are making. I only use gypsum and cal chloride and so far it's worked out.

The RO dispenser in the store is the one where you fill your own jugs. It should say on the machine what the water is but 99% of the time it's RO water.
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Last edited by a moderator:
^Ok cool, thank you.

So I'll just get the necessary amount of RO water from the machine, then build it up with salts from 0.

There's an artesian well about 30 mins from me. I genuinely considered going there to get water, and getting a test done at the local health department water testing site.

but I guess if I can just buy RO that'd save a lot of time haha :)
 
My guess would be the result of the dry hop begin so big. If you do the dry hop experiment with bud light you will notice significantly increased bitterness from polyphenols and suspended hop particles. My guess is its this bitterness you are tasting and not isoalpha acids. If I was you I would bottle some of your next beer without dry hop and dry hop the rest, then compare.
 
I would guess then from reading the posts that it's your Mash pH running to high. Try 5.3 at room temp. That works a treat.
Another thing I noticed you use a whole yeast cake to ferment your batch. Maybe you're overpitching?
I went through a period of pitching 2 packets of US-05 in and fermenting low (62) and imo the results were too clean and pilsner like with no ale character. They were turning out like overly bitter lagers. I think it needs yeast growth to help the flavour profile and help balance the beer.
 
A lot of posts here but I saw that your hop storage is a potential issue. If you love hops so much I would spend the money on a vacuum sealer. Keeping them frozen slows the process of oxidation but it is still going on. You need to remove the o2 completely. You could also use large mason jars and flush them thoroughly with co2.
 
What is the pH of your sparge water? It's nice that your mash pH is where it needs to be, but that is all negated when sparking with water that is near pH 7. Your sparge water should be acidified to near the pH of your mash. Tannin extraction is pH dependent. This may help with your bitterness issue. You have the pH meter, all you need is some flavor neutral acid (phosphoric acid and to a lesser extent hcl). Something to think about.
 
It could just be that 250 sulfate is too high for your tastes. There are quite a few people on here that will do their IPAs at less than 100 sulfate, they'll leave the chloride lower to compensate.

If you ferment very dry, dry hop very heavily, and have very high sulfate levels you'll be getting out of this world hop character and bitterness. This might be causing you to pick up flavor/aromas from the hops that you might now pick up in an IPA thats doesnt finish as dry, has lower sulfate, and maybe has a lower amount/shorter duration dry hop.

I don't acidify sparge water and don't have issues with pH going into the boil, if your mash pH is spot on you dont necessarily have to acidify your sparge (as long as the sparge runnings pH doesn't go above 7 I think is the rule of thumb and if your mash is appropriately acidic it would take a lot of sparging to hit that). I generally shoot for 60-70 sulfate, 2-3oz (5 gallons) dry hop for 3-6 days (6 days max), and try to hit 1.010-1.014 (14 max) for finishing gravity and I don't get the same bong water character you are getting.

I know that there is a population that swears by the 250 sulfate but that just seems out of this world to me. (I am in no way saying I know better than the experts, 250 just seems out of this world when I look at my own person taste)

Edit: Also as you mentioned the city seems to change its water sources constantly. If you shoot for 250 sulfate off a water report saying base level is around 3, but the city changed sources and the sulfate level was actually around 50, you'll sky rocket past the 250 level. Also if other categories are much higher you could be ending up with astronomical amounts and cause major flavor issues. Try an IPA recipe you got the really bad bong water flavors from (if you can use the same year hops if at all possible), and try only adjusting the water a tiny bit, such as only increasing the sulfate by 70-80, but leave everything else the same, and see if you get the same bong-water-effect.

Edit:Edit: I wanted to share an experience the first time I fiddled with water chemistry. I managed to confuse myself on the difference between sulfate and chloride. Was making a strong scotch ale and my city water chloride levels are around 19. I wanted to bump that up particularly with how dry S04 tends to ferment for me. Went to add 1 tsp of magnesium sulfate cause I got them all backwards. The beer ended up fermenting only to 1.015 but tasted like it dropped way below 1.010 because of the super drying puckering effect high sulfate and magnesium levels can create.
 
I really appreciate all the well-thought out responses so far! Let's keep this going!

I'm going to try that same recipe with pilsner, carapils, and c40. I did like the light body profile of the last IPA. I will likely add 5-8% wheat berries (or would flaked wheat be better? Step mash?) to give more of a creamy smooth mouthfeel like the Trillium/Tree House beers

This time I will:
reduce sulfate and Cl levels.
sparge with 170 F water.
aim for mash PH of 5.2-5.6
use RO water from the store and build with a lighter version of the profile i listed.
avoid a 60 min addition and either add 0.5 oz of something at 30 min, or use FWH.
avoid columbus as the bittering addition. I am considering fuggles or magnum
only use 6 oz total (max) for dry hop, and only dry hop 6 days max
leave beer to ferment for 2 full weeks prior to dry hop
cold crash, force carb, enjoy

Might also just use citra or citra+amarillo since I have quite a bit of both left, and I know neither of those contributes grassy bong flavors.

Thoughts?
 
Cleaning - I would make sure and take apart all your gear and clean out the gunk. This can lead to off flavors.
Sparge water temp and length - you only need to sparge at the temp you did for your mash. Higher and you may extract tannins. Also I only soak the grain for max 10 mins when I sparge.
Old Yeast Cake - Don't use a full yeast cake. You should be letting the yeast have a growth cycle. Read other articles on the downside of over pitching.
Old Yeast Cake - There is a fair amount of hops / trub material in that old yeast cake (hops would add grass funk, and perhaps bitterness)., using the same yeast cake will probably transfer that nastiness to the new beer. ( I had used an WLP568 too long and it did not taste good; something bad had started being in every saison I brewed with this washed yeast I used from batch to batch)
Dry Hopping time - I do this only after 2 weeks plus of primary, for 4 days. I have in the past dry hopped for 7 days and it created a lot of grassiness . You can also dry hop in a nylon bag in the keg itself.
Water - use Brew'N water and this will help you figure out how to get to the ideal 5.2 - 5.4 ph. I have found the mouth feel and dryness is not "tasting right" if the ph is off. The same beer at 5.8 ph is not going to taste as dry and the hops will not pop compared to one that is in the 5.2-5.4 range.
 
^thank you. all very good points.

Another question:

If you are lowering PH in an IPA recipe, do you prefer to use a small portion of acidulated malt, or just dose the strike water with the 88% lactic acid?

I'm very paranoid of adding any "Tangy" or tart flavors to this style.

(Tried a sacch trois IPA once, and absolutely loathed the tangy-ness)
 
StopTakingMyUsername said:
^thank you. all very good points.

Another question:

If you are lowering PH in an IPA recipe, do you prefer to use a small portion of acidulated malt, or just dose the strike water with the 88% lactic acid?

I'm very paranoid of adding any "Tangy" or tart flavors to this style.

(Tried a sacch trois IPA once, and absolutely loathed the tangy-ness)
Click to expand...

I usually use 4-6oz of acid malt. Ive used up to 8oz a few times without any tang in the final beer. Youd need like 20% or more im guessing
 
m00ps said:
I usually use 4-6oz of acid malt. Ive used up to 8oz a few times without any tang in the final beer. Youd need like 20% or more im guessing
Click to expand...

+1 to this

If I do a very very pale grist (aka 100% pilsner) with my city water's pH I need up to 8oz of acidulated malt to get my mash pH within acceptable ranges. You can get away with less if you plan decoctions since they will lower the overall mash pH by .1-.2 points, though this isnt really something you'd use for an IPA (normally). It's tough to get the sour tang from acidulate malt unless you are using a very large percent, or you happen to be super sensitive to the presence of lactic acid (even if you used a large percent it would be lost to any specialty malts/yeast character/alcohol presence/hop character and bitterness).
 
StopTakingMyUsername said:
Could you explain how it would be water or tannins?
Click to expand...

One issue I had for a little was that I was recreating the McDole profile which is up there in Sulfates and mis-using the Beersmith Water mineral addition calculator.

I was adding to achieve the desired ppm based off of my Total Water vs. (correctly) post-boil volume.

After correcting the numbers, I saw I was getting up to over 600ppm of sulfates that was giving me this coarse bitterness. (Distilled water was always my base water)

I know there's only a slight chance this is your issue
 
Going to try this IPA again this weekend.
Here's what I'm planning:

11# pils
1# Maris Otter (for a bit of mouthfeel)
6 oz acidulated malt
4 oz c40
4 oz Carapils
1 lb dextrose (added to primary on day 2)

0.5 oz Magnum @ 30 min
2 oz. Citra @ 10 min
3 oz. Citra @ flameout (let steep while whirlpooling)
4 oz Citra, dry hop 5 days

US-05 starter, I'm guessing it will be around 200 bil. cells by the time I brew

water - RO water, 1g gypsum, 1.5g CaCl2 - 25 ppm sulfate, 32 ppm Cl, 28 ppm Ca


I'm figuring I'll just use the citra I have since theres plenty left and I don't want it to go bad. Plus a single hop beer might make it easier to pinpoint issues.

Also, I have a RO/DI unit that we use for a saltwater fish tank. It's pretty slow, but I'm guessing I could just whip up the amount of water I need using that, right? Instead of paying for water at the store?

Any suggestions?
 
Maris Otter doesn't give you mouthfeel BTW. It will give you a slightly breadier taste, but not any mouthfeel like carapils or crystal would. Also if you really want any kind of effect from it, I'd bump up to 4 or 5# since only 1# would just get lost in this recipe.
 
Several people have mentioned first wort hopping which I was also going to suggest as well as adding hops to the mash. The hop character seems to be enhanced by mashed hops without affecting the bitterness level.
To avoid oxidation I keep my hops vacuum sealed in barrier bags and stored in a freezer between uses and they seem to hold up well for months this way.
 
Ok I'll forget about the Maris otter for now.
Does the water look ok?

Also, I don't have access to a vacuum sealer, so for now I'm trying to use the hops ASAP. They are stored in a freezer in sealed bags with the air squeezed out.
I'll do more research on fwh
 
The first time i got the bitterness right in an IPA:

- ditched tap water, used store bought bottled water
- water was fairly soft, added CaCl2 for more chloride (overall was something like 100ppm Ca, 10ppm SO4, 100ppm Cl2)
- mash ph set @ 5.2 with phosporic acid
- for a 1.050 OG beer there were only 15-20 IBUs in the boil
- formulated the recipe to use new, unopened packets of hops
- huge whirlpool additions, with a 30min below 180F steep
- kegged it instead of bottling
 
Brewed above recipe today. Hit all targets dead on, and PH was 5.38, so just a tiny bit shy of 5.4 that I was aiming for. Should be ok.

also used 1# of wheat instead of the maris otter. Figured that'd give a better chance of some smooth mouthfeel than the maris would.

I didn't do FWH, because the more I researched, the more it stated that they "increase IBU by 10%", and that bugged me out. I know it also said the bitterness is "different" and more pleasing on the palate, but I'll try that again next time. Decided to just do the 30 min addition of 0.5 oz magnum instead of at the 60.
If that comes out good, I'll try FWH next batch.

undershot the whirlpool temp a bit, but got in a good 30 mins from 160 F down to 145 F, with 3 oz citra in the hopstand.

Everything else looked great, so we'll see in a couple weeks! I'll keep everyone posted.
 
StopTakingMyUsername said:
Going to try this IPA again this weekend.
Here's what I'm planning:

11# pils
1# Maris Otter (for a bit of mouthfeel)
6 oz acidulated malt
4 oz c40
4 oz Carapils
1 lb dextrose (added to primary on day 2)

0.5 oz Magnum @ 30 min
2 oz. Citra @ 10 min
3 oz. Citra @ flameout (let steep while whirlpooling)
4 oz Citra, dry hop 5 days

US-05 starter, I'm guessing it will be around 200 bil. cells by the time I brew

water - RO water, 1g gypsum, 1.5g CaCl2 - 25 ppm sulfate, 32 ppm Cl, 28 ppm Ca


I'm figuring I'll just use the citra I have since theres plenty left and I don't want it to go bad. Plus a single hop beer might make it easier to pinpoint issues.

Also, I have a RO/DI unit that we use for a saltwater fish tank. It's pretty slow, but I'm guessing I could just whip up the amount of water I need using that, right? Instead of paying for water at the store?

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

I just read through the thread and here is my 2 bobs worth;

- use 2 row malt, it's designed for ales, Pilsner is designed for light beers, eg lagers, kolsch etc etc if you insist on using pils, do a 50/50 spilt with pils and Maris with 3% C40
- drop the carapils, it's has no place in an IPA.
- add the dextrose to the last ten minutes of the boil.
- aim for lower pH, 5.2. Beer made at this level is much crisper and cleaner than higher pH.
- go back to a simple hop schedule....30ibu from the bittering with magnum because it's clean. Massive 5min addition and whirlpool addition to make up the remainder of your Ibu and dry hop heavy like you do.

Hope fully some of these can help, sure does work for me.
 
Pratty said:
I just read through the thread and here is my 2 bobs worth;

- use 2 row malt, it's designed for ales, Pilsner is designed for light beers, eg lagers, kolsch etc etc if you insist on using pils, do a 50/50 spilt with pils and Maris with 3% C40
- drop the carapils, it's has no place in an IPA.
- add the dextrose to the last ten minutes of the boil.
- aim for lower pH, 5.2. Beer made at this level is much crisper and cleaner than higher pH.
- go back to a simple hop schedule....30ibu from the bittering with magnum because it's clean. Massive 5min addition and whirlpool addition to make up the remainder of your Ibu and dry hop heavy like you do.

Hope fully some of these can help, sure does work for me.
Click to expand...

1) If you were right, every commercial brewery would be using only 2 row and that's 99% not the case. See Troegs Perpetual, Bells Two hearted, it goes on.

2) See Pliny the Elder and blind pig. Both have carapils and are hallmarks of their respective styles.

3) This is fine but it doesn't make a difference when it's added.

4) 5.38 is great

5) It's pretty well agreed upon (commercially and in homebrewing) that a 30 minute addition volatilizes most flavor and aroma while not utilizing alpha extraction. I.e. it's an inefficient addition and you're better off adding less bittering hops earlier in the boil for the same IBU contribution.
 
Another question I've been kicking around:

What happens if you use a hop that's predominantly used for aroma/dry hop for bittering at the 60?
For example, if I used citra, mosaic, or azacca as the 60 min addition?

I've stayed away from this because at the brewery I used to work at, the brewer made a beer where he used the normal amount of bittering hops, but used Citra (at the 60) and it was ungodly bitter and astringent, almost had a medical burning taste to it.

What would happen if I ditched the Columbus/CTZ/Magnum/Fuggles/Whatever entirely and just used Citra, mosaic, or azacca as a FWH?
 
I was reading past pasts in this thread and it seems that your sparge temp is too hot. At max it should be 170 not over, any hotter and tannins can be released. Also allowing enough time for the yeast to clear it's self like talked about before will help as well. My father kept rushing the fermentation process until a local hombrew shop finally told him that the fermentation step wasn't long enough. The following beer was not nearly as skunked out or bitter. Your grasyness could also be from they type of hop you are using, like ones that are known to impart a grass like flavor, or using too high and too much of a high alpha acid hop.
You can use just about any hop for any purpose you want. Lower alpha hops should be used in the dryhop, so I have read, however people use Simcoe and that is generally a higher alpha.
 
StopTakingMyUsername said:
Another question I've been kicking around:

What happens if you use a hop that's predominantly used for aroma/dry hop for bittering at the 60?
For example, if I used citra, mosaic, or azacca as the 60 min addition?

I've stayed away from this because at the brewery I used to work at, the brewer made a beer where he used the normal amount of bittering hops, but used Citra (at the 60) and it was ungodly bitter and astringent, almost had a medical burning taste to it.

What would happen if I ditched the Columbus/CTZ/Magnum/Fuggles/Whatever entirely and just used Citra, mosaic, or azacca as a FWH?
Click to expand...

Funny, I was just about to ask the same question. I have about a pound of citra & mosaic whole leaf hops and was planning to do 2 SMaSH's, 1 of each, using 1 hop from FWH all the way through to Dry Hopping. Curious to know if this is a good idea or not.
 
Thanks Brian! I know I can use any hops for dry hop, but I was more curious about what would happen if I used Citra as the 60 min addition.

The more my co-brewer and I talk about it, the more I'm leaning towards just not using a 60 min addition at all, and just adding from 30 on.
The only thing I worry about there is that if it's not drank fast enough, it'll just be basically water, since our grain bills are so light.

Also, update...

checked on the beer today, it is down to 1.012 and actually the sample I pulled tasted great.

light, with a tiny bit of body... and pretty juicy. Very faint earthiness from the magnum @ 30, but it's not a detractor from the citra at all (way lighter than previous batches too)

Gunna add the rest of the Citra for dry hop on Tues.
I'll let you guys know how it turns out! :)
 
You could use Citra as a bittering hop. It usually has a high alpha so it would be good. Should come through nicely.
 
beernutz said:
Several people have mentioned first wort hopping which I was also going to suggest as well as adding hops to the mash.
Click to expand...

Is that not the same thing? If not, can you please explain the difference?

I am having issues getting a clean, distinct bitterness when I make my IPA. Smell and aroma could also be better. I am thinking I want to try FWH'ing as well as whirpooling/hop standing?
 
Mash hopping involves adding hops to the mash and removing when you remove the grains. First wort hopping is adding hops once you start to heat the wort to boil, and leaving in for the duration of the boil. Personally, I dont find either to be much more effective than just a 60min addition.

If you are looking for actual "distinct" bitterness, you should be increasing you 60min addition. You wont get any flavor or aroma from thsi though. Im guessing you are referring to the pungent hop aroma and flavor of commercial IPAs which also include a bite at the end. For this, you need a large hopstand along with a appropriately sized bittering addition IME
 
As is (maybe) indicated by your preliminary taste test, your problem is probably water related (ie. high mash pH). I produced a slew of mediocre and subpar beers before going full volume BIAB and keeping my mash pH in check with lactic acid (first acid malt, now 88% lactic acid). Astringency from mashing/sparging at too high a pH adds to the bitter sensation to my palate.

My water has high sulfate content too, which enhances bitterness and can make it sharp and overwhelming. The two coupled together meant to some of my paler beers, which didn't have crystal or roast to bring the ph to decent levels, and had a lighter body couldn't balance the bitterness.

I now will use RO water and build up for very pale and delicate beers, (mostly weissbier nowadays, but I'm planning a pils soon) where I don't want the mineral content of my well water.

I have read the entire thread and seen that you don't see a difference from dryhoping at 3 days instead of waiting for fermentation to be over. You have to take into account that yeast in suspension will continue to drive off CO2 as they finish their job on the last few points and that they will also grab some of the flavour and aroma counponds with them as they flocc out.

Miller uses a special hop extract which removes the compoundsfrom the hops that allow for skunking. Dr Bamsforth on the Beersmith podcast has said that even using this extract, if Miller were to reuse yeast from a pitch that was normally hopped, it would be enough to introduce skunkiness in the following beer if it was exposed. It's a good illustration of how much yeast absorbs the hops compounds.

With that in mind, S-05 is not a good flocculator and will remain in suspension after primary fermentation is achieved. I'd wager that dropping it and then adding the dry hop would allow you to reduce the amount of dryhop necessary to achieve good hop flavour and aroma. I do not abide by the dogma that normal fermentations need 3 weeks to complete or need time to clean up or whatever, but waiting for the majority of the yeast to settle before dry hopping will yield better results.
 
mesooohoppy said:
Is that not the same thing? If not, can you please explain the difference?

I am having issues getting a clean, distinct bitterness when I make my IPA. Smell and aroma could also be better. I am thinking I want to try FWH'ing as well as whirpooling/hop standing?
Click to expand...

Mash hops = hops in the mash
FWH = hops in the first runnings of wort in the boil kettle

Whirlpool from 170 F down to 140 ish. Cellarmaker discussed this range in an AMA on another beer site. Add a large dosage of hops during this time, and you'll get a LOT of aromatics/flavor from them.
Also, a good-sized dry hop.




UPDATE:
Apparently I didn't have as much Citra left as I thought. Added 2.5 oz for the 5-day dry hop. We'll see if that's enough. Probably one of the smallest dry hops I've ever done to date.
 

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