How to calculate efficiency? Why is mine so low!

[Lithobid]

What's my efficiency?

So I'm a new AG brewer, I previously brewed with extracts, but that was over 10 years ago, and never made anything very good. I just competed my AG brew a few months ago, and it is fabulous! I'm shocked at how good it turned out. I've brewed a few times since and my efficiency doesn't seem to be what it should.

I just finished my Tangerine Wheat, and had a 12 lb grain bill, but only ended up with a pre-boil SG of 1.040 (first runnings 1.040 2.9 gal, second runnings 3.5 gal @1.020). Single batch sparge, and I'm using all the tricks. Stir the mash well, good mash temp 154 and even throughout the tun. I'm slowly draining the mash and the sparge, < 1 liter/ min. Strike water 190 degrees, calibrated thermometer, ph 5.0, stir the mash occasionally during mash period. Using 1.5 liter per pound for mash volume.

Just don't know why the SG is so low. I'm using the 10 gallon Home Depot round cooler with a bazooka screen. I would appreciate any help! I'm thinking of switching to fly sparging to see if that helps.

Also how do I calculate my current efficiency 12lbs for 6.5 gallon boil at 1.040

 

[Staestc]

I can't help, but want to subscribe to this thread, since I am about to do my first all grain brew, using batch sparging and a rectangular cooler with a manifold. I am anxious to see the responses to this thread!

 

[Lithobid]

Yes, I've done a ton of research, and set myself up right from the get go. I'm making great beer, right out of the gate, which for hobbies such as this, is rare. I'd just like to get .020 more point of efficiency to my mashes. I think I'm doing everything right, talked with my local brew guy, and he suggested raising my temps, he said raise everything by 5 degrees, which couldn't hurt, but it doesn't seem to match what I've read.

Lithobid

 

[solbes]

I do BIAB, so I won't comment on your sparging technique. You didn't mention anything about the crush you are getting on your grains. Grain mill, if so what setting is it at? 1x through the local brew shop crusher, 2x? Thats usually the first place to start with efficiency issues.

Also strike water of 190F? Mine is usually somewhere in the 163-168F range based on style. Does the 190F really give you a mash temp of 154F? Maybe this is where mash tun vs brew in a bag is different, but I can't account for that much difference.

 

[blizz81]

I'd maybe try a different LHBS if that was their suggestion for higher efficiency...

 

[NTXBrauer]

Also how do I calculate my current efficiency 12lbs for 6.5 gallon boil at 1.040

Here is a good calculator to use online:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

 

[soupfist]

You'll want to go here.

Probably what you're looking for is pre-boil efficiency. Plug in the grains you're using and the quantities, then the pre-boil volume you collected from the sparge. Your SG divided by the gravity that represents 100% efficiency = your pre-boil efficiency. The calculator linked above will give you all that.

That being said, it doesn't make sense that you said your SG is 1.040 AND your first running is 1.040. In batch sparge you're combining the two runnings into a single volume, so the only thing that really matters is the gravity of the total volume. Which I'm thumbnailing is probably around 1.027, which sight unseen on your grain bill probably puts you around 40%, give or take 5%.

Obviously that's hellishly low. Conventional wisdom sez the most common source of low efficiency is bad grain milling so you might consider that. "Tangerine Wheat" also makes me suspect you're using a high quantity of flaked wheat as is common in Belgian Wit recipes... I have yet to delve into the finer points of cereal mashing but you might want to read up on how best to handle that. If you're not getting any conversion out of the wheat that might be your problem.

 

[Bobby_M]

12 lb grain bill, but only ended up with a pre-boil SG of 1.040 (first runnings 1.040 2.9 gal, second runnings 3.5 gal @1.020).

I'm slowly draining the mash and the sparge, < 1 liter/ min. Strike water 190 degrees, calibrated thermometer, ph 5.0, stir the mash occasionally during mash period. Using 1.5 liter per pound for mash volume.


Also how do I calculate my current efficiency 12lbs for 6.5 gallon boil at 1.040

The makeup of the grain bill is important as the potential sugar contribution is a little different between various grains. It would also be good to know that you had an effective mash with the appropriate level of malted grains. For giggles, let's say it was 12lbs of 2 row with an 36 PPG.


That's 432 gravity points at 100% efficiency. Since you got 6.4 gallons preboil (are you sure?), that's 432/6.4 and that would be 1.0675 at 100% efficiency. Since you got 1.040, the total points you got out was 6.4*40=256 so that's 59% lauter efficiency.


First thing, I agree with the previous poster that you can't get a 1.040 preboil when you combine 1.040 and 1.020 wort. Simple averages says that.

Second, you didn't mention stirring the heck out of the grain after you added the sparge water. Did you stir after adding the sparge water?

Third, stop draining the runnings so slowly, you're wasting your time.

 

[Lithobid]

Here's a photo of the crush. I'm possibly going to purchase my own mill, if a finer crush helps. Also my bad my strike water is not 190, my sparge water is 190, my strike is about 172 for 12 lbs to get to 154 after pre-heating the tun to 120 degrees.

Grain Bill
9lb 2-row
3lb wheat u.s.
1lb caramel 10L

I apologize again guys, I'm being a real idiot here, when I drained the mash tun I got 2.9 gal @ 1.060 my sparge drain was 3.5 gal at 1.020, my final pre-boil gravity was 1.040. Sorry for the confusion, I need to proof read my posts!

 

[seefish]

I wouldn't spend the money on a mill quite yet. I would brew again and double check your volumes, or whatever you are using to take volume readings. That would be the easiest to fix and imo the most likely cause, especially if you are making good beer.

 

[myndflyte]

I'd maybe try a different LHBS if that was their suggestion for higher efficiency...

My thoughts exactly. What kind of advise is that?

 

[blizz81]

That crush could be more fine, for sure. I don't know if that's your only culprit, but if you can run it through twice at the LHBS, it's worth trying. To me having your own mill is worth it, to be able to measure and consistently know your crush width. With conditioning grain, I've gone all the way down to .028mm, which is pretty aggressive, but I usually maintain enough husk material from conditioning to where I don't run into flow issues (and I recirc). I think this pic was at .030mm (grain bed post-mash):

There's a sticky in this section for maximizing efficiency when batch sparging, and if you search "efficiency" here and do some reading you'll see some tips and opinions.

 

[Yooper]

View attachment 228642

Here's a photo of the crush. I'm possibly going to purchase my own mill, if a finer crush helps. Also my bad my strike water is not 190, my sparge water is 190, my strike is about 172 for 12 lbs to get to 154 after pre-heating the tun to 120 degrees.

Grain Bill
9lb 2-row
3lb wheat u.s.
1lb caramel 10L

I apologize again guys, I'm being a real idiot here, when I drained the mash tun I got 2.9 gal @ 1.060 my sparge drain was 3.5 gal at 1.020, my final pre-boil gravity was 1.040. Sorry for the confusion, I need to proof read my posts!

That doesn't even looked crushed. If they won't mill it finer, they need to run it through again. You don't want to pulverize the grain, but each grain should be crushed. You have mostly intact husk there- that's a recipe for very poor efficiency.

Wheat is especially an issue, and nearly 1/4 of your grainbill is wheat. Wheat doesn't have a husk, and it can fall right through a grainmill with a wide gap, so it can be a pain to crush.

It's been said already, but a better crush and stirring your sparge water into your grain like it owes you money (and drain fast, not slow when you batch sparge!), and your problems should be solved.

 

[ajdelange]

Also how do I calculate my current efficiency 12lbs for 6.5 gallon boil at 1.040

Your numbers make it pretty easy to calculate as 1.040 is very close to 10 °P. You have 6.5 gallons of boiling wort which, when cooled, will have a volume of about 96% of that or about 6.24 gal. The density of this is 1.040 times the density of water which, at room temp is about 8.3 pounds per gallon (you can look up the exact numbers for your actual temperatures) so your wort weighs 6.24*1.04*8.3 = 53.86 lbs of which 10% (10°P) or 5.386 lbs is extract. You got this from 12 lbs of grain so your efficiency is 5.386/12 = 0.448 or 44.8% which isn't too good. In the laboratory you would probably get around 80%, in a commercial brew house perhaps 78% and a home brewer would hope for 70% or more.

 

[Lithobid]

Bliz81 yours looks much finer than mine. Perhaps the next brew I'll see if my LHBS can adjust their mill or perhaps run it through twice. I'm quite careful when I begin to Vorlauf so I don't anticipate stuck mashes.

Seefish, I don't understand how double checking volumes will help. I followed the general instructions I've found here of 1.5liter/lb of grain, minus grain absorption, then the sparge water makes up the difference for the boiled volume. Correct?

Yooper, I sir the sparge water in for about 8 min.

Also my LHBS has given great advice and care to get me going, the comment of raise the temps by 5 degrees out of context does sound kinda bad. He also mentioned all the aforementioned ideas as well.

Really appreciate the help and opinions thanks guys, glad your here!

Lithobid

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

That picture of your grain - I see a few broken grains but a heck of a lot that look intact or nearly so.

Is anyone else seeing that or am I out in left field (it's been a long week)?

 

[Yooper]

That picture of your grain - I see a few broken grains but a heck of a lot that look intact or nearly so.

Is anyone else seeing that or am I out in left field (it's been a long week)?

That doesn't even looked crushed. If they won't mill it finer, they need to run it through again. You don't want to pulverize the grain, but each grain should be crushed. You have mostly intact husk there- that's a recipe for very poor efficiency.

Yes, that's been mentioned!

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Oops! Sorry about that Yooper. Like I said, it's been a hard week. I guess my comprehension has suffered as well.

 

[Lithobid]

I was also thinking of switching to a fly sparging method to increase efficiency. However if I'm only getting around 50% efficiency then I've got bigger problems.

 

[Yooper]

I was also thinking of switching to a fly sparging method to increase efficiency. However if I'm only getting around 50% efficiency then I've got bigger problems.

Yes. Fly sparging might increase your efficiency a % point or two, or not. I get the same efficiency, roughly, whichever method I use. While it might take you from 79% to 80% in a perfectly done fly sparge, it won't fix this.

 

[Lithobid]

Bobby_M

You say I'm wasting time by draining the runnings too slowly. I've only gotten that information from this forum, and several other resources that tell me to shoot for approximately 1 Liter/min. Do you disagree? Why, and what are your timing suggestions for draining the mash, and then the sparge water? Thanks for you input!

Lithobid

 

[Yooper]

Bobby_M

You say I'm wasting time by draining the runnings too slowly. I've only gotten that information from this forum, and several other resources that tell me to shoot for approximately 1 Liter/min. Do you disagree? Why, and what are your timing suggestions for draining the mash, and then the sparge water? Thanks for you input!

Lithobid

I'm not Bobby, but I agree with him.

When the instructions are to drain slowly, that assumes fly (continous) sparging when the process of diffusion "pulls" the sugars out of the grain as it slowly drains. The water addition is not stirred in, due to the process where sugars diffuse to the highest area of concentration (the grain) to the area of lowest concentration (the fresh water). This process takes time, so the water is trickled in and the runnings are drained at the same speed.

With batch sparging, that is a whole different process. Think of the batch sparging as your washing machine. Stir in the water, agitate it around a lot, then drain. Letting it sit is totally unnecessary and may in fact allow the sugars to settle.

Here's a great explanation on batch sparging by the guy who literally wrote the book on it: http://dennybrew.com/ Denny Conn explains it better than I ever could!

 

[user 141939]

It's hard to tell from a picture but I agree that does not look like a good crush. That could be the whole problem right there.

I'm glad I got my grain mill early on in my all-grain career. I love that thing, i got the cheapest one there is (the cereal killer) and it works like a champ.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Lithobid]

Thanks Yooper, that makes sense to me. Also thanks for another great resource!

 

[Lithobid]

So I've been compiling tons of research, and thanks to this site and Braukaiser.com (all of Kai's hard work unbelievable guy) , it's obvious that my grain crush is not sufficient. I'm planning on doing a test tomorrow, 3 separate lbs of grain mashed each in 1 gallon of water, with different grinds at my LHBS. 1 normal crush, 1 run through the mill twice, and the third I'm going to condition and then run through twice. I'm not gonna mash in my mash ton, but a separate pitcher, and see what kind of gravities I end up with. Any suggestions for this little science experiment?

 

[Gunfighter04]

Personally I wouldn't bother with experimenting. To me it's obvious that it's a poor Crush. I would ask them to mill it, and then look for how many husks are not cracked open. I'd then respectfully show them to the sales person and ask them to adjust the mill until nearly all the husks are cracked open. That's your starting point. You can go finer as you're understanding of your equipment increases. As a prior LHBS owner, I always kept an old plastic card by the mill that I'd check before each milling. I know that periodically that one side of the mill would back off slightly and cause poor crushes. Not all owners have the same level of detail and if it's just a temp employee he may not even know to check. Just go when you're not in a hurry and when the store isn't packed and you'll have a relationship where you can get it exactly as you want it.

**edit**
I guess to summarize what I was trying to get at is that it's not difficult to tell what a good crush looks like after you've seen it a few times. We as home brewers like to turn everything into a science experiment, which is all well and good but can be a bit overwhelming for a beginner. You'll know when it's time to get your own mill so you can get the same exact crush everytime, but I'd start with just improving your starting point.

 

[bbohanon]

100% agree with the posters on the crush. That crush looks really bad.
There are some pics on posts here that show a proper crush and that is not it. I am betting with a proper crush, you would have hit your numbers or exceeded them. Its not your gear or technique.

This issue is exactly why I bought my grain mill..I got tired of the hit or miss crush at the LHBS. They would tend to "fiddle" with their mill adjustments at the previous customers request and would forget to reset them so I may or may not get the crush I was used to getting depending on the setting from the prior customer.

Once I got my own grain mill, I set it once and I have hit my numbers ever since plus it helps save time at the LHBS as I am not waiting in line for grains to be crushed.

 

[Owly055]

I think we are all in agreement about the crush being horrible........ Take a set of feeler gauges with you and measure the roller spacing. If they won't adjust it down to a reasonable spacing, you will have to find another place to do your crush.

I do BIAB. and since I got my own crusher, I frequently go as high as 90% efficiency, and that with mashes that I've reduced to a mere 30 minutes. I've gone as low as 10 minutes, but my attenuation showed that while efficiency was in the high 80's, the long chain sugars had not had time to break down enough. My brew Sunday was 30 minutes, and is now very close to target attenuation..... Crush was .025 double pass. I considered mash and sparge, but abandoned the idea as my efficiency was so high, and you are limited as to your crush.

I believe you have better control with a fine crush. The initial conversion takes place in minutes, so the rest of the time is a break down of long chain to short chain sugars (increasing fermentability). Controlling time and temp allows you to control FG better.


H.W.

 

[Lithobid]

Great info Owly, yes I agree the crush needs to be improved greatly. I'm just confused by this LHBS the guy has been amazing helping me get set up, and claims (and he does a lot of buisness) that his crush is good, and guys are getting good efficiency. If everyone was as low as me I'm sure there would be more complaints. I'm heading over tomorrow to discuss this with him.

 

[EtchyLives]

Thanks for all the comments. I just went all-grain and was SLOWLY batch sparging my grains. And when I say "SLOWLY" I mean 30+ minutes to drain 8 gallons of wort. I was under the same mistaken assumptions as the OP and I will correct my errors in the future. Also, I will make sure to aggressively stir the grains during sparge as I have not been doing that in my last two AG adventures.

 

[Yooper]

Great info Owly, yes I agree the crush needs to be improved greatly. I'm just confused by this LHBS the guy has been amazing helping me get set up, and claims (and he does a lot of buisness) that his crush is good, and guys are getting good efficiency. If everyone was as low as me I'm sure there would be more complaints. I'm heading over tomorrow to discuss this with him.

Maybe take the photo of your crushed grains, as maybe someone (a customer) messed with the mill and your crush is not typical.

The crush in your photo is an absolutely terrible crush. The mill gap in brew stores is usually .039-.040 and generally gives an efficiency of 68-70% for most people. That's tight enough for decent efficiency, but not so tight that people are complaining of stuck mashes and sparges. Your photo has grain that is mostly uncrushed with a few that are crushed.

 

[schiersteinbrewing]

I feel your pain...when I first started AG I had horrible mash efficiency 60%. After 4-5 brews I started to get it dialed in, grain crush was the most important factor. Then mash/sparge temps/times and tons of stirring (till your arm hurts). Finally water chemistry and ph levels. By the time I got it all dialed in I was hitting 75% mash efficiency, occasionally hitting 80%.

It was a personal vendetta to get my efficiency up. Bought a grain mill. Started doing 90 min mashes, batch sparging with 190deg water. Had a water report done and my tap water was awful, so started using RO water and following the water chemistry primer. Then bought a PH meter.

I tried batch sparging and fly sparging, I had better luck with batch sparging.

Then I got tired of cleaning my 3 vessel system and switched to BIAB, (hit 78%-80% routinely) and haven't looked back since.

 

[mlafnitzegger]

I've just recently overcame low efficiency. Ended up being the crush. All systems being different it will take time to dial in your settings (temps, crush, ph) but worth the journey... most of the time.

 

[MattGuk]

I found crush was my problem when starting out, that and also realising i was messing my volumes up, also PH was a factor.
I kept calculating my batch size as 23 litres, but what a didnt realise for some time was that, that was the volume going into the fermenter and not the volume in the kettle post boil.
I have a 3 ltr dead space in the kettle so realised my batch size was actually 26litres meaning my efficiency was what was predicted.
I do no sparge full volume mash and always hit 72%

 

[Lithobid]

So I went to the brew store today, talked with my guy, he's willing to adjust the mill to whatever I like. We ran the Pilsen and specialties through his normal setting of 0.45mm which he said was just below the factory setting of 0.50 that the mill came set on. He said much tighter than 0.45 and he has trouble getting the grains to go through. I looked at the crush and it looked much better than before, he didn't recommend running it through a second time. I did run the wheat through a second time through, and there were no whole kernels left. I've calculated my water for a 6.0 gallon boil at 1.2L/lb. 90 min mash. I'm hoping it turns out! I'll post the SG readings soon!

 

[Yooper]

That's still not a great crush- it's better, but not great.

It's hard to believe that noone else complains at .045"! My barley crusher came with a default of .039", but most people go tighter.

here's a picture I found on the 'net of a good crush:

Mine is a bit more crushed than that, but I didn't think to take a photo today when I brewed.

 

[Owly055]

View attachment 229675View attachment 229676

So I went to the brew store today, talked with my guy, he's willing to adjust the mill to whatever I like. We ran the Pilsen and specialties through his normal setting of 0.45mm which he said was just below the factory setting of 0.50 that the mill came set on. He said much tighter than 0.45 and he has trouble getting the grains to go through. I looked at the crush and it looked much better than before, he didn't recommend running it through a second time. I did run the wheat through a second time through, and there were no whole kernels left. I've calculated my water for a 6.0 gallon boil at 1.2L/lb. 90 min mash. I'm hoping it turns out! I'll post the SG readings soon!

I would not consider this an adequate crush...... The song and dance about not being able to make it feed is utter nonsense........unless it has smooth rolls, which seems highly improbable. Mine feeds at any setting I've tried down to .010........but it takes more torque at the really close settings than the set screw on the handle will pull, so I double crush.... once at a more or less normal crush in the .030 range, and once at my ultra fine crush...... If I'm doing that. Finer than you want to go with a conventional mash tun setup. I do BIAB,and a fine crush isn't an issue except for a bit more trub. Efficiency with a fine crush is tremendous, but the small loss of volume due to trub cancels out that efficiency. I often exceed 90%, but I lose half a bottle of beer, or about 7%. I still get the same number of bottles, I just don't have that half a glass of left over when I rack to bottles. For me it isn't a matter of efficiency........ I pay 50 cents a pound for grain, it's a matter of time. A 20-30 minute mash instead of a 60 minute mash. I'm honing in on a brew day that is under 2 hours start to finish. My heat and chill times are trivial now due to modifications in my process..... a 30 minute mash and a 45 minute boil, fast heat and fast chill, minimal equipment, etc, has put me consistently under 2 hours without compromising quality........... cutting my brew day to less than 50% of where I started. This matters to me as I brew once a week... That's a savings of over 100 hours a year,

H.W.

 

[RM-MN]

This is what my milled grains look like for doing a BIAB batch.

 

[mlafnitzegger]

That's still not a great crush- it's better, but not great.

It's hard to believe that noone else complains at .045"! My barley crusher came with a default of .039", but most people go tighter.

here's a picture I found on the 'net of a good crush:

Mine is a bit more crushed than that, but I didn't think to take a photo today when I brewed.

I also use a barley crusher. I started at the factory setting of .039 and decreased crush after each brew day until I had good efficiency. I ended my gap at .031.

ps; don't forget to dough in super good and stir a lot during sparging if you batch sparge. That was my final process adjustment and now I am getting 75%+ efficiency.

 

[Lithobid]

Well I'm quite pleased this go around.

6 lbs Pilsen
3 lbs wheat
1 lb caramels

3 lbs flaked wheat

For 10 lbs of fermentables I got 2.2 gal @ 1.084 first runnings, stirred the hell outa it and batch sparged 3 .5 gallons in 10 min @ 1.034. Pre-Boil was 1.050 right where the recipe said.

So it's getting better. I agree with the other posters, still could be a finer crush. I'm gonna ask him to dial it down for me on the next batch. The LHBS is very helpful, they say they'll crush however I want it.