How to build a control panel (part 1)

[joety]

Thats true, I didn't think about it.

What kinda ramp are you getting?

I haven't gone balls out, as it kinda scares me at half throttle, but it takes about 45 minutes in my HLT to go from 55ish to 170. My BK goes from 150 to boil in about 30 minutes.

To change the temp in my MLT using the RIMS tube (1500w), I'm looking at about 1 degree/minute.

 

[pola0502ds]

So the HLT and BK are direct fired correct? how many gallons is your figures based on?

 

[brewhokie]

Kal I noticed that you don't use any fuses or breakers inside your control panel. I've seen lots of other wiring diagrams with these elements included. Are the breakers and fuses used to prevent damage to the components in the control panel? Is there a reason you didn't use this kind of protection within your panel?

Thanks for all the information, and I loved you interview on the BN.

 

[kal]

Kal I noticed that you don't use any fuses or breakers inside your control panel. I've seen lots of other wiring diagrams with these elements included. Are the breakers and fuses used to prevent damage to the components in the control panel? Is there a reason you didn't use this kind of protection within your panel?

Thanks for all the information, and I loved you interview on the BN.

I do use one 7 amp fuse to protect the 14 ga (15amp) wiring (where it is required):

You may fuse every component if you like of course, and have seen many people do this. I just feel it's overkill and not needed and have never seen it done like that on every component in commercial/industrial panels.

Kal

 

[pola0502ds]

Kal,

So you don't have a fuse on any of your elements? I wired a 7amp fuse in my control panel just like yours. I did purchase a 15 amp fuse for my element but have not installed it yet because I don't know if I really need it or not?

 

[kal]

Kal,

So you don't have a fuse on any of your elements? I wired a 7amp fuse in my control panel just like yours. I did purchase a 15 amp fuse for my element but have not installed it yet because I don't know if I really need it or not?

No, no fuse on any of the elements. The elements are about the last thing that I'd fuse since they're not sensitive electronics.

I'm not sure what element you're using but the 5500W ones I use draw 22.9 amps. The 15 amp fuse you mention would only work if you had a ~3000W element (assuming 240V).

Kal

 

[joety]

No, no fuse on any of the elements. The elements are about the last thing that I'd fuse since they're not sensitive electronics.

I'm not sure what element you're using but the 5500W ones I use draw 22.9 amps. The 15 amp fuse you mention would only work if you had a ~3000W element (assuming 240V).

Kal

He got the idea from me. We are both using 1500W elements for a RIMS setup. I put the 15 amp fuse in to allow for the use of lighter guage wire than my 20 amp supply would call for.

 

[kal]

He got the idea from me. We are both using 1500W elements for a RIMS setup. I put the 15 amp fuse in to allow for the use of lighter guage wire than my 20 amp supply would call for.

That makes sense! That's the same reason I use a fuse: To protect the smaller wire.

Kal

 

[hatfieldenator]

Hey Kal, Can you think of any reason why I'm having problems with my yellow heating element lights buring out on me? I've gone through 2 of these now. They work fine initially, but by the end of the brew day they burn out? Do you think I should just try a light from a different manufacturer?

 

[kal]

Hey Kal, Can you think of any reason why I'm having problems with my yellow heating element lights buring out on me? I've gone through 2 of these now. They work fine initially, but by the end of the brew day they burn out? Do you think I should just try a light from a different manufacturer?

If you wired up your panel as per my instructions, make sure you're using a 220V-240V light and not a 120V light. Look at the markings on the light itself, not the order link where you ordered to make sure you (a) ordered the right one, and (b) you were sent the right one.

Other than that I have no idea. It could be any number of issues from defective parts, to incorrect wiring, to just plain bad luck with defective components.

Kal

 

[hatfieldenator]

Thanks for answering that Kal. I think it may have something to do with the constant flickering on and off from the PID cycling the heating element on or off to maintain temps. I perhaps need to make some adjustments to the PID to make it do that less often?
Another question about the boil. If you run the PID in manual mode and set it to like 85% like you suggest on your site it seems to cause the boil to stop and start a lot. Its full blast, hard boil when its on, then it stops boiling completely momentarily while its off.
I did a test 5 gal water boil yesterday on my system and this is what it seemed to do. Is that typical for this sort of set up and something I should just get used to?

 

[kal]

Thanks for answering that Kal. I think it may have something to do with the constant flickering on and off from the PID cycling the heating element on or off to maintain temps. I perhaps need to make some adjustments to the PID to make it do that less often?

Nope. I wouldn't change a thing in that respect. These LED pilot lights could be left to blink on and off and they'd run for years I suspect.

Another question about the boil. If you run the PID in manual mode and set it to like 85% like you suggest on your site it seems to cause the boil to stop and start a lot. Its full blast, hard boil when its on, then it stops boiling completely momentarily while its off.

I did a test 5 gal water boil yesterday on my system and this is what it seemed to do. Is that typical for this sort of set up and something I should just get used to?

85% doesn't really start/stop for me. If it does for you, run it at 90% or 95% or even 100%. All depends on how much wort you're boiling and how fast heat is escaping so every setup will be slightly different in that respect.

I did a batch at 100% power a few months ago and the boil off was the same. (14 gallon pre-boil).

It may also be that with 14 gallons there's more mass that retains the heat better so there's less of this 'on' 'off' action. I'm not sure.

Kal

 

[hatfieldenator]

It may also be that with 14 gallons there's more mass that retains the heat better so there's less of this 'on' 'off' action. I'm not sure.

Kal

That's what I'm thinking. I only had 5 gallons of plain water in there and the boil was definitely very vigorous. I'm sure when I do a full 7 gallons or even a full 12 gallons (for 5 or 10 gallon batches) it will be a little more stable.

I can't wait to try this system out for my first indoor boil next weekend! I'm so excited that I won't have to deal with wind blowing my flame around or having to worry about rain, etc, etc. Plus, the best part is I won't have to lug a full pot of wort outside for the boil like I've been doing up until now.

I'm using a penrose kettle for my BK. Built pretty much as your blichmann's except I had a 1/2 coupler welded on for the heating element. I also added a temp probe according to your instructions. Those greenlee punches do an amazing job. I was very impressed with how clean the hole was.

 

[stevehaun]

"Another question about the boil. If you run the PID in manual mode and set it to like 85% like you suggest on your site it seems to cause the boil to stop and start a lot. Its full blast, hard boil when its on, then it stops boiling completely momentarily while its off. "

You need to shorten the cycle time on the PID. With my omega pid, I need to keep the cycle time at 1 second to keep from having a "pulsatile" boil.

 

[hatfieldenator]

Thanks, I'll try that. I'm guessing my cycle time must be somewhere close to like 20 secs or so, because at 85% it stays on for like 15 secs then goes off for 2 or 3 secs? Thanks for the advice, I'll try that.

 

[P-J]

Set your cycle time for 2 seconds (t=2) and see how that works for you. At that setting the element would be on for 1.7 seconds and off for 0.3 seconds when set @ 85%.
IMHO 20 seconds is way to long for what you are doing.

 

[kal]

Yup. 20 second cycle is way too long. The default on the ones I use are 2 seconds for SSR output (what we use for electric elements) or 20 seconds for relay output.

Kal

 

[pola0502ds]

He got the idea from me. We are both using 1500W elements for a RIMS setup. I put the 15 amp fuse in to allow for the use of lighter guage wire than my 20 amp supply would call for.

Joe,

Thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot about it. My brain is almost burnt up from this build but I have had so much fun.

 

[joety]

Joe,

Thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot about it. My brain is almost burnt up from this build but I have had so much fun.

You know what's funny; I have never seen the amperage spike above 13.5 amps, so I could have gotten away with a 15 amp circuit. That said, it has enabled me to plug my exhaust fan into the same circuit. It pulls about 2.5 amps or so.

 

[pola0502ds]

You know what's funny; I have never seen the amperage spike above 13.5 amps, so I could have gotten away with a 15 amp circuit. That said, it has enabled me to plug my exhaust fan into the same circuit. It pulls about 2.5 amps or so.

Joe, that's funny is right.

I went through the trouble of running a new line and installing a 20 amp breaker. Well, one day I was running tests with my 1500 watt element and both pumps on and all along I had it in the wrong outlet which was a 15amp circuit with a lot of other things on it. Not once did the breaker blow.

Point is, I never had to waste my time and money installing a 20 amp breaker.

 

[Gussymo]

I found these and was wondering if they would work for the power input for the control panel. Leviton L19-30 Locking Flanged Inlet 30A 277/480V 3ØY. I know you said that going bigger is fine and these are 30 amp and 277/480 with 4 wires. I am just not sure about the 3 phase thing. It is $19.

 

[kal]

I found these and was wondering if they would work for the power input for the control panel. Leviton L19-30 Locking Flanged Inlet 30A 277/480V 3ØY. I know you said that going bigger is fine and these are 30 amp and 277/480 with 4 wires. I am just not sure about the 3 phase thing. It is $19.

It'll work fine. It's rated for 3 phase voltages which are higher than what I use so no issues. You don't *have* to use that plug with 3 phase.

Kal

 

[Gussymo]

Thanks, Kal.

 

[BrewMoreBeers]

Kal: Any update on if you are going to offer a pre-milled version of you control box for sale? Needing to mill the box is stopping me from buying a kit and price is stopping me from buying a completed unit.

 

[pola0502ds]

Brewmorebeers, where are you located in ohio? I milled the holes in my box, I may be able to help you.

 

[jeffmeh]

First, let me join the chorus of thanks for the fantastic write-up. I believe that I learned enough from it to build a control panel of my own, albeit a more modest one.

One of our brew club members built the panel to your specs, and I cannot wait to see it.

I am planning to scale your design down for my single-vessel, BIAB brewing style. Considering that I will be dropping quite a few internal components, I am wondering whether you think I could fit it into a 12 x 12 x 6 box. Lowe's has this for a very reasonable price.

For front-panel controls I would have:
- PID
- Timer
- Power switch
- Pump switch
- Temp alarm switch
- Timer alarm switch
- Timer reset switch
- Power light
- Pump light
- Element light
- Alarm buzzer/light

On the top of the box I would have:
- 40A heat sink

On the bottom of the box I would have:
- Power in receptacle
- Element out receptacle
- Pump out receptacle
- XLR receptacle

For internal components I would have:
- PID
- Timer
- Fuse
- Hot bus
- Neutral bus
- Power relay
- Element relay
- SSR

I think it will fit in the 12 x 12 x 6 box, but my only concern is whether the depth is adequate. I suspect there is enough surface area to spread the components out so that nothing is really back to back depth-wise. Any thoughts on that, or whether I am missing anything absolutely critical for a one element system? Thanks again.

 

[milldoggy]

I think some posted that a 6 in depth is uber snug with the lids, but doable. You will have to make sure nothing is behind them

 

[kal]

I would recommend drawing a layout of the front panel and inside backplate to see if they'll all fit.

6" may work but it depends on the depths of the individual items and they may be slightly different than the ones I used.

Personally I think it would be a nightmare to work in a box like that. I wouldn't do it myself.

Kal

 

[shortyjacobs]

Could be very tight Jeffmeh.

Mine has:
PID
Master Switch, Pump Switch, Heater Switch
Heater Reset Momentary ON
Two 120V outlets
SSR
Contactor Relay to control Heater Reset latching

It's in a 12" x 8" x 5" plastic tupperware container, (stop laughing at me!), and it's decently tight, in spite of the fact that I have very few switches....

Your design will probably work, but you'll have to be VERY good with wiring....wiring is where all the room gets taken up.

Here's mine:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/tips-tricks-tidy-safe-control-box-252580/

Check Post 9 for how mine looks now. Check Post 8 to see how nostalgia crammed a LOT of stuff into a box that looks like yours, (12"x12").

 

[jeffmeh]

I would recommend drawing a layout of the front panel and inside backplate to see if they'll all fit.

6" may work but it depends on the depths of the individual items and they may be slightly different than the ones I used.

Personally I think it would be a nightmare to work in a box like that. I wouldn't do it myself.

Kal

Sound advice, thanks. The front panel would work with no problem, and I may even consolidate by using illuminated switches for both power and pump. I could easily put that on an 8 x 12 face.

It's tough to tell for the back plate, as I am uncertain of the component measurements (my apologies if I missed that on your site). I'm really only putting two relays and the buses on the back plate, before wiring. Do you have rough dimensions of the relays? Also, from the pictures, it looks like you lose about 1 1/2" around the perimeter, so your back plate is about 13" x 13". Is that about right? The box you have also comes in 12 x 12 x 8, so I would not have to worry about the depth if I used that, and I cannot imagine not having enough space in there for my "stripped down" rip-off of your design.

Thanks again for your help.