How much hops/dry hops to generally make a pale ale be considered a India Pale Ale?

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An American PA is closer to an English IPA than an English IPA is to an American IPA. Regardless, it really depends on the hops and the way you use them. Some of my PAs have more hops than some of my IPAs, where I incorporate contact time with wort. It's a mine field! Or was it a hop field? :rolleyes:
 
You won't get a clear answer. I have heard some people say that Pale Ales should not be dry hopped, but I dry hop most of my Pale Ales. I have made some beers with a good amount of hops that I call a Pale Ale, but mostly because they are in the 5% ABV range. I have a beer fermenting now that got 8.6 oz of homegrown hops into the kettle. It will not be dry hopped, but I will call it an IPA because it should be in the 6.5% to 7% ABV range. Zombie Dust is sold as a Pale Ale, but at 6.2% and heavily hopped, it would clearly be an IPA in my book. Some say IBUs determine the style, but plenty of IPAs are made these days with 40 or less IBUs.

I guess in my view, ABV is the biggest factor.
 
Abv - that does make a lot of sense - high Abv with moderate amount of hops - IPA - back in the original IPA days - 19th century- how much hops
Adj was added for the trip to India?
 
CascadesBrewer said:
You won't get a clear answer. I have heard some people say that Pale Ales should not be dry hopped, but I dry hop most of my Pale Ales. I have made some beers with a good amount of hops that I call a Pale Ale, but mostly because they are in the 5% ABV range. I have a beer fermenting now that got 8.6 oz of homegrown hops into the kettle. It will not be dry hopped, but I will call it an IPA because it should be in the 6.5% to 7% ABV range. Zombie Dust is sold as a Pale Ale, but at 6.2% and heavily hopped, it would clearly be an IPA in my book. Some say IBUs determine the style, but plenty of IPAs are made these days with 40 or less IBUs.

I guess in my view, ABV is the biggest factor.
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A Venn diagram of IPAs vs APAs have a good bit of overlap. And then there are these "session IPAs" that seem suspiciously like dry-hopped APAs to me.

The lines are blurred. Style labels only matter if you're entering it in a comp. If you brew it and you like it, that's all that matters.
 
MaxStout said:
The lines are blurred. Style labels only matter if you're entering it in a comp. If you brew it and you like it, that's all that matters.
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Agreed... @Cappeter 's reason for asking the question might help. I'd say if you are looking to have both on hand you probably want to emphasize differences when these two beers are tasted side by side and so might make a smaller APA with more complex malt character complementing the hops while the comparison would be a bigger IPA with lots of bright late hops over a very clean malt background.

On other hand, If you are brewing for competition, you have to think about how the beer will come across in a flight of other similar beers and you may end up brewing an APA that would easily fit into the stats and description of the IPA category.
 
When everyone comes to a consensus make sure to post so we know for sure what to call what. 😃 I brew what I consider to be an Imperial Pale Ale that is at 10% ABV if that helps factor into the decision making. I literally might change my description from IPA to Pale Ale after tasting if the hops don't come through enough for it to be considered an IPA ( IMO ) and that is why I have a delicious Imperial Pale Ale on my roster.😉
 
MaxStout said:
A Venn diagram of IPAs vs APAs have a good bit of overlap. And then there are these "session IPAs" that seem suspiciously like dry-hopped APAs to me.

The lines are blurred. Style labels only matter if you're entering it in a comp. If you brew it and you like it, that's all that matters.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know of a freely available list of recipes that target the "mid-point" (or "mid-points") of common styles?

If such a list does exist, it would be a good way learn more about styles "by example and sampling".

For those willing spend a few dollars on a book, Simple Homebrewing (chapter 7: Simple Recipe Design) has a number of recipe templates for various styles.
 
I certainly wouldn't consider dry hopping to be a defining characteristic that demarcates whether a beer is an IPA or PA.

Dry hopping is a technique whereas IPA and PA are styles. It's kinda like asking "What kind of engine is needed to generally have a car be considered a sports car?" Inline engines, V-engines, horizontally opposed engines, Wankel engines, there's all kinds of engines in cars that are generally accepted as being sports cars.

Writing from the US, and as a native of the West Coast that has spent 20 years on the East Coast, I agree with eric19312's assertion that the grist is more likely to be the defining characteristic. In my brewery, my US pale ales tend to be have more modest OGs and they emphasize a bit of medium C-malt (usually C40) and a bit more flavor from the base malt (typically pale malt rather than straight 2-row). The overall effect is to create a beer that is within the realm of "balanced," but unambiguously hop forward.

By contrast, my US IPAs tend to have a more generous OG (north of 1.060) and a much simpler, dryer, grist that leaves a clear pathway for the hops to take center stage. These beers tend to discard any notion of balance and are assertively hop forward.

As a technique, dry hopping can be used in either of those recipes.

Anyway, that's what I think and it only actually matters in my brewery. What you decide is, ultimately, the best answer for you.
 
Bramling Cross said:
I certainly wouldn't consider dry hopping to be a defining characteristic that demarcates whether a beer is an IPA or PA.

Dry hopping is a technique whereas IPA and PA are styles. It's kinda like asking "What kind of engine is needed to generally have a car be considered a sports car?" Inline engines, V-engines, horizontally opposed engines, Wankel engines, there's all kinds of engines in cars that are generally accepted as being sports cars.

Writing from the US, and as a native of the West Coast that has spent 20 years on the East Coast, I agree with eric19312's assertion that the grist is more likely to be the defining characteristic. In my brewery, my US pale ales tend to be have more modest OGs and they emphasize a bit of medium C-malt (usually C40) and a bit more flavor from the base malt (typically pale malt rather than straight 2-row). The overall effect is to create a beer that is within the realm of "balanced," but unambiguously hop forward.

By contrast, my US IPAs tend to have a more generous OG (north of 1.060) and a much simpler, dryer, grist that leaves a clear pathway for the hops to take center stage. These beers tend to discard any notion of balance and are assertively hop forward.

As a technique, dry hopping can be used in either of those recipes.

Anyway, that's what I think and it only actually matters in my brewery. What you decide is, ultimately, the best answer for you.
Click to expand...
Very good info-and it is information that helps me better understand the pale ale vs IPA - realizing there is no absolute definition of pale ale vs IPA- thanks for your detailed input
 
There is overlap between the styles. Pale ale is usually lower in alcohol, 5% range. IPA is usually higher, near 7% range. Bittering unit to gravity unit ratio is higher for IPA. .7 for pale ale, .85 for IPA.

Trying commercial examples helps. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale has long been held as one of the classic examples of the style. There are many other good ones.

IPA is further convoluted by NEIPA, which is everywhere now and is likely what you’ll get today if you just ask for IPA, especially at so called “hip and trendy” places. When you are looking for commercial examples of IPA you have to know if you want NEIPA or West Coast IPA. NEIPA is cloudy, most of them look like a glass of orange juice or like the sludge we pour out of the bottom of our fermenters. West Coast IPAs are clear beer. And many commercial IPAs are not labelled correctly. So its difficult to talk about IPA today. One of my favorites is Lagunitas IPA. I generally avoid any IPA that is sold in a can if I don’t want NEIPA. Best advice I can give.
 
Create your own definition and go with it. Drink the best versions of the style commercially brewed around the US and take what you like about them and dislike and create your own guidelines for your beer and the beer you want to make.

At my brewery we can’t serve anything over 5% on draft so none of the standard definitions apply or really make sense.

We serve what we jokingly call a L IPA ( Pronounced Lie P A) which is a 5% beer designed to withstand over 4#/bbl of hops throughout the process. 2.5#/bbl in the DH. It’s feels/tastes/smell like it’s 6.5% but it’s only 5%. It’s not an IPA cause IPA starts at 6% hence the L. Our pale ales are usually 4.5-4.8%, drier, and have a lower overall hopping load. 2.5-3#/bbl of hops overall. 1.5ish in the DH.

IPA starts at 6% in my mind and goes to 7.7. 7.8% and up is Double IPA. The overall hopping load increases accordingly.
 
Cappeter said:
Opinions on IPA vs Pale ale w/r to Hops
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An India Pale Ale should only use Goldings, but for a pale ale then Fuggles would also be acceptable.

Or at least, that would be the late-19th century view in Britain. But it gets complicated - in the 20th century the distinction essentially disappeared.

See, it kinda depends on history and geography - and now we have USians making India Pale Ales that never go to India, are black and made with lager yeasts. So the name is becoming pretty meaningless.

But if you want to go back to the beginning, in 1821 Andrew Ure was saying " It is well known that other things being equal, the liquor keeps in proportion to the quantity of hops. Fresh beer may have from a pound to a pound and a half to a barrel of 32 [imperial] gallons, June beer two pounds and a half, beer for the month of August three pounds and for a second summer three and an half. For India voyages, four pounds."

That 4lb/imperial barrel is the equivalent of 8.3 oz in 5 US gallons.

And a later edition of Ure explains that brewers are forced to go as high as a gravity of 1.055 for tax reasons (between 1830-1880) although they would rather brew weaker : "This impolitic interference with the operations of trade compels the manufacturer of bitter beer to employ wort of a much greater density than he otherwise would do; for beer made from wort of the specific gravity 1042 is not only better calculated to resist secondary fermentation and the other effects of a hot climate, but is also more pleasant and salubrious to the consumer."

So "classic" IPAs were typically 1.055-1.060, although high attenuation took them to 6-6.5% ABV. And by the standards of the time they were weaker than the average beer. And by the 1950s many IPAs were in the low 1.030s.
 
Roll some dices, that's your difference.

Meaning, there is none. It's all about the naming that is given to the beer. One can choose, the borders between both are non existent. I've seen sub 4% abv ipas in the UK and above this post are some pale ales mentioned that have more than 6% abv. Hopping rates also vary immensely.

It's really just what you decide to call it nowadays.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
An India Pale Ale should only use Goldings, but for a pale ale then Fuggles would also be acceptable.

Or at least, that would be the late-19th century view in Britain. But it gets complicated - in the 20th century the distinction essentially disappeared.

See, it kinda depends on history and geography - and now we have USians making India Pale Ales that never go to India, are black and made with lager yeasts. So the name is becoming pretty meaningless.

But if you want to go back to the beginning, in 1821 Andrew Ure was saying " It is well known that other things being equal, the liquor keeps in proportion to the quantity of hops. Fresh beer may have from a pound to a pound and a half to a barrel of 32 [imperial] gallons, June beer two pounds and a half, beer for the month of August three pounds and for a second summer three and an half. For India voyages, four pounds."

That 4lb/imperial barrel is the equivalent of 8.3 oz in 5 US gallons.

And a later edition of Ure explains that brewers are forced to go as high as a gravity of 1.055 for tax reasons (between 1830-1880) although they would rather brew weaker : "This impolitic interference with the operations of trade compels the manufacturer of bitter beer to employ wort of a much greater density than he otherwise would do; for beer made from wort of the specific gravity 1042 is not only better calculated to resist secondary fermentation and the other effects of a hot climate, but is also more pleasant and salubrious to the consumer."

So "classic" IPAs were typically 1.055-1.060, although high attenuation took them to 6-6.5% ABV. And by the standards of the time they were weaker than the average beer. And by the 1950s many IPAs were in the low 1.030s.
Click to expand...
That reminds me of still having to brew a classic IPA. I think Nottingham plus Brett would be ok? 1.055 og and 40-50 ibus bittering additions with Golding's? What do you think?
 
Miraculix said:
That reminds me of still having to brew a classic IPA. I think Nottingham plus Brett would be ok? 1.055 og and 40-50 ibus bittering additions with Golding's? What do you think?
Click to expand...

Works for me, better still with Chevalier - although whilst we're on the subject, Wyeast have just released 9097 Brett/Sacc Old Ale blend as a Q4 Private release. I'd probably go with Brett claussenii if you have the choice.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Works for me, better still with Chevalier - although whilst we're on the subject, Wyeast have just released 9097 Brett/Sacc Old Ale blend as a Q4 Private release. I'd probably go with Brett claussenii if you have the choice.
Click to expand...
Chevallier is a pain to get here in Germany atm. Since brexit, they want obviously import tax. Last time they charged me 49 euros for 60 quid worth of brewing supplies, majority was malt. It was obviously falsely calculated but I still never got my money back. German Zoll....
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Works for me, better still with Chevalier - although whilst we're on the subject, Wyeast have just released 9097 Brett/Sacc Old Ale blend as a Q4 Private release. I'd probably go with Brett claussenii if you have the choice.
Click to expand...
Anyway, I will try it again. The barley wine I made with the last delivery is exceptionally good now. Aged for over half a year now.

And I will also use the brett claussenii you suggested, thanks for that. I just googled it and it looks like what I had in mind. Any other suggestions yeast- and malt-wise?
 
If you're buying then I'd be tempted to just try the 9097 since it's not normally available and it saves you the cost of buying two separate yeasts - I assume the Sacc isn't anything too weird.

Otherwise - yep, anything fairly mainstream British.

One thing to consider that certainly works with dark beers is to blend Bretted and "new" non-Bretted beer 1:2.
 
Miraculix said:
Chevallier is a pain to get here in Germany atm. Since brexit, they want obviously import tax. Last time they charged me 49 euros for 60 quid worth of brewing supplies, majority was malt. It was obviously falsely calculated but I still never got my money back. German Zoll....
Click to expand...
I haven't tried mine yet, but this should avoid extortionate import and shipping. They'll do it by the kg, too, if you want to sample.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
An India Pale Ale should only use Goldings, but for a pale ale then Fuggles would also be acceptable.

Or at least, that would be the late-19th century view in Britain. But it gets complicated - in the 20th century the distinction essentially disappeared.

See, it kinda depends on history and geography - and now we have USians making India Pale Ales that never go to India, are black and made with lager yeasts. So the name is becoming pretty meaningless.

But if you want to go back to the beginning, in 1821 Andrew Ure was saying " It is well known that other things being equal, the liquor keeps in proportion to the quantity of hops. Fresh beer may have from a pound to a pound and a half to a barrel of 32 [imperial] gallons, June beer two pounds and a half, beer for the month of August three pounds and for a second summer three and an half. For India voyages, four pounds."

That 4lb/imperial barrel is the equivalent of 8.3 oz in 5 US gallons.

And a later edition of Ure explains that brewers are forced to go as high as a gravity of 1.055 for tax reasons (between 1830-1880) although they would rather brew weaker : "This impolitic interference with the operations of trade compels the manufacturer of bitter beer to employ wort of a much greater density than he otherwise would do; for beer made from wort of the specific gravity 1042 is not only better calculated to resist secondary fermentation and the other effects of a hot climate, but is also more pleasant and salubrious to the consumer."

So "classic" IPAs were typically 1.055-1.060, although high attenuation took them to 6-6.5% ABV. And by the standards of the time they were weaker than the average beer. And by the 1950s many IPAs were in the low 1.030s.
Click to expand...
With 5kg of whole UK Goldings let's just say I 'went to f*cking town' following a claimed traditional IPA hopping rate. And let's just say that 'it's still bloody maturing' after 12 months. I'll give another 12 month, but my patients might be wearing a bit thin by then. Well, I'm not made of kegs!
 
McMullan said:
I haven't tried mine yet, but this should avoid extortionate import and shipping. They'll do it by the kg, too, if you want to sample.
Click to expand...
Sweet, thanks.

.... 3,9 Euros per Kg, that is expensive. Still cheaper than my maltmiller order from last time :D

Just to be clear, maltmiller could not do anything about it. They even were really helpfull when the parcel got stuck in transit, they are nice guys.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
If you're buying then I'd be tempted to just try the 9097 since it's not normally available and it saves you the cost of buying two separate yeasts - I assume the Sacc isn't anything too weird.

Otherwise - yep, anything fairly mainstream British.

One thing to consider that certainly works with dark beers is to blend Bretted and "new" non-Bretted beer 1:2.
Click to expand...

I do not like that they say that it produces sourness over time. I am not a fan of tart beer (unless it is a sour of course). That´s why I liked the description of the claussenii more. Also, it was originaly cultured from the type of beer i want to brew. But these beer must have had multiple bretts inside obviously.
 
CascadesBrewer said:
You won't get a clear answer. I have heard some people say that Pale Ales should not be dry hopped, but I dry hop most of my Pale Ales. I have made some beers with a good amount of hops that I call a Pale Ale, but mostly because they are in the 5% ABV range. I have a beer fermenting now that got 8.6 oz of homegrown hops into the kettle. It will not be dry hopped, but I will call it an IPA because it should be in the 6.5% to 7% ABV range. Zombie Dust is sold as a Pale Ale, but at 6.2% and heavily hopped, it would clearly be an IPA in my book. Some say IBUs determine the style, but plenty of IPAs are made these days with 40 or less IBUs.

I guess in my view, ABV is the biggest factor.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting discussion because I just got into a debate last night with SWMBO regarding this very topic. I recently brewed a SMASH pale ale and she was curious what the difference was and why I called it a pale ale rather than an IPA. I wasn't sure how to respond other than I hopped less aggressively than I would've if I was going to call it an IPA 🤣 -- it's 5.1% and 56 IBUs.

She was less than satisfied with my response and proceeded to ask our Google Home the difference and it's top Pale Ale (I'm not sure what it was citing as the source) was listed as Zombie Dust--to which I promptly replied that I would've considered that an IPA.
 
3 Floyds describes Zombie Dust as a Pale Ale. It finished 3rd at 2012 Great American Beer Festival in the (2012) American-Style Pale Ale category.

In 2021, at 6.5% & 62 IBUs, it may not fit in the 2021 Brewers Association Beer Style Guidelines for American-Style Pale Ale:

• Original Gravity (°Plato) 1.044-1.050 (11-12.4 °Plato)
• Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (°Plato) 1.008-1.014 (2.1-3.6 °Plato)
• Alcohol by Weight (Volume) 3.5%-4.3% (4.4%-5.4%)
• Hop Bitterness (IBU) 30-50
• Color SRM (EBC) 4-7 (8-14 EBC)
Click to expand...
 
Miraculix said:
I do not like that they say that it produces sourness over time. I am not a fan of tart beer (unless it is a sour of course). That´s why I liked the description of the claussenii more. Also, it was originaly cultured from the type of beer i want to brew. But these beer must have had multiple bretts inside obviously.
Click to expand...

MTF suggest that the Brett component of 9097 Old Ale is Wyeast's 5526 Brux "lambicus", and the Sacc is from Thomas Hardy but I've got no other source for that. The cherry pie description would fit 5526.

My vague understanding is that claussenii is probably the best fit, these beers didn't have hit-you-over-the-head horse blanket character.

Quick Google for "Crisp Chevallier €" throws up a couple of options. I would have thought Geterbrewed are probably your best bet as they take advantage of the leakiness of the Irish border.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
MTF suggest that the Brett component of 9097 Old Ale is Wyeast's 5526 Brux "lambicus", and the Sacc is from Thomas Hardy but I've got no other source for that. The cherry pie description would fit 5526.

My vague understanding is that claussenii is probably the best fit, these beers didn't have hit-you-over-the-head horse blanket character.

Quick Google for "Crisp Chevallier €" throws up a couple of options. I would have thought Geterbrewed are probably your best bet as they take advantage of the leakiness of the Irish border.
Click to expand...
Thanks mate, I will have a look on that. Finally a good reason to buy a second speidel :)
 
rgregoryirving said:
I just got into a debate last night with SWMBO

She was less than satisfied
Click to expand...

Not a good combination.....
Happy wife rule.....SWMBO always "wins" debates
I'd be happy she likes beer and likes to talk about them.
Sorry, as usual I'm :off:.

Somewhere I read that an IPA is supposed to be over 40 IBU and have higher alcohol than a normal beer.
So if you want to call your 5.1% 56 IBU smash beer an IPA, you're covered. But, if you want to call it a pale ale, you're also safe.
The easy answer to the IPA/PA label is: all commercial breweries will stretch the IPA definition so they can sell more beer, homebrewers and beer nerds will continue to debate such things to provide something to talk about.
:mug:
 
I find this sort of question funny when asked by homebrews. Brew what YOU want and like to drink. If for a competition, brew within the std guidelines or suffer the expected consequences. But if you Really want to recreate the IPA, brew with lots of hops, and drink it flat with only enough pressure to push out of the keg and at a temperature of no less than 75f. Way worse than export Guinness at 77f in Jakarta, just hold the ice please.
 
Cappeter said:
Abv - that does make a lot of sense - high Abv with moderate amount of hops - IPA - back in the original IPA days - 19th century- how much hops
Adj was added for the trip to India?
Click to expand...

If you want to see brew logs from the 19th century and get some solid information about how much hops, abv, etc then you need to read Ron Pattinson's blog, Shut Up About Barclay Perkins. Shut up about Barclay Perkins (link goes to a search of the term IPA).

Quick work on the hops/India connection... Hops were not so much added at high levels to make the beer survivable. The Alcohol preserves the beer. The high level of hops were to account for hop degradation over the long journey. And a side note on beer sent to India... far more Porter was shipped for the soldiers and was also more heavily hopped. So does that make India Porter a thing?
 
BrewnWKopperKat said:
Does anyone know of a freely available list of recipes that target the "mid-point" (or "mid-points") of common styles?

If such a list does exist, it would be a good way learn more about styles "by example and sampling".

For those willing spend a few dollars on a book, Simple Homebrewing (chapter 7: Simple Recipe Design) has a number of recipe templates for various styles.
Click to expand...

Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles is a good starting point. Otherwise, look at some of his recipes that are available online.
 
tennesseean_87 said:
Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles is a good starting point. Otherwise, look at some of his recipes that are available online.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'm aware of Brewing Classic Styles (it's not free).

What I was looking for was a free list of free quality recipes that could be a shared point of reference when discussing recipes / styles. It may be reasonable to categorize the recipes by "decade" (1980s IPA vs 2020s IPA) and by region (west coast, east coast, north coast, ...).
 

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