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How many times do you reuse your bottles?

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I suppose it's worth questioning what kind of capper everybody is using.

That's a good question.

I used a wing capper back when I bottled. I suspect it may have had something to do with the bottle failures I experienced. And perhaps I used too much downward pressure in my capping technique.
 
Till they break. I use a bench top capper(super agata), to reduce strain on the neck. I bottle 24(12oz) and keg the rest.
 
I suspect that a large percentage of bottle failures are due to damaged cappers. This has been the case in many threads. The problem disappears when they get a new capper.

I never thought about the cycle life of a bottle, but I have never had one fail either.

I now keg so my several hundred bottles should not get worked too heavily.

As has been mentioned, check the bottles carefully, at least periodically, and recycle any suspect ones.
 
Hi Fionnbharr,I was merely asking a simple question that may involve a bit more thought than you are capable of doing on your own.Every time you reuse a bottle you are putting stress at the weakest point of the bottle.The neck and the ring where the cap goes.I was just asking if the bottlers here on this forum had a limit on the number of times they reuse.Look up glass fatigue on Google.Regardless of what you think "NOTHING LASTS FOREVER"I really do appreciate your psychological critique of me.That will save me a bundle on a shrink.Yea I am a bit weird,but you are an absolute moron and a jerk to boot!

Jesus man, relax.
 
i just use em till they break or if they get dried out, caked gross stuff in the bottom of them. Bottles are easy enough to get so I'm not going to waste time trying to clean one out if it's nasty.

I use one of those orange wing cappers. I've broken a few necks with it but not that many when you count how many bottles I've capped successfully with it.
 
I will add that I use a wing capper. The bottles that I've had break the most with this capper is Anchor teardrop. Seems like the neck is a little weaker since that where they break. No science just my experience.
 
After having trouble with short-neck bottles with the red baron wing capper, not to mention the bell wearing out, I got my super agata bench capper. No more worries, just adjust the height of the capper to the bottle & go for it.
 
My degree is in materials science. Glass does not fatigue or wear out with use. Bottle failures are due to defects or scratches. If you are worried about your bottles, inspect them for manufacturing defects, deep scratches, or nicks/chips. Discard those that are suspect. As long as you don't damage them, they will last longer than you will.

Brew on :mug:

With all due respect to you and your education, one of the first things I was taught in "Strengths of Materials" was that all materials lose structural integrity with fatigue.

Let's assume for a bit that I misunderstood my professor and he was speaking strictly of metals, but if that were the case why would glass be so different?

I speak only from experience that I've had bottles stretch. I over-carbonated a stout and the bottles expediently showed signs of damage like some of my more used bottles.

Let's not forget the legal bit imprinted on so many glass bottles "one time use only": I ignore it because I understand it's over-cautious, but fatigue is a real problem.

Again, I have much respect for your materials science background: I just have to argue so that 1) I get this cleared up or 2) I learn something I didn't know.
 
But you also have to remember that metals & glass have a different structure & the stress/fatigue on them are different. Glass having a crystalline structure is a bit more durable in this instance than metal would be. Metal changes more easily to heat & cold tempering, however slight the effect may be over the course of time. As I stated previously, take good care of the bottles & don't chip them, etc. They'll last for years with no ill effects.
 
With all due respect to you and your education, one of the first things I was taught in "Strengths of Materials" was that all materials lose structural integrity with fatigue.

Let's assume for a bit that I misunderstood my professor and he was speaking strictly of metals, but if that were the case why would glass be so different?
...

Again, I have much respect for your materials science background: I just have to argue so that 1) I get this cleared up or 2) I learn something I didn't know.

I'll take a stab at trying to explain the difference between glass and metals, and also try to keep it as brief as possible (although brief is a relative term.) In order to keep it brief, it cannot be comprehensive. So please, no berry punches for leaving out special cases or second/third order effects. For those of you who get bored reading this, feel free to move on to the next post. There will not be a test at the end ;)

To understand what fatigue is, we must understand the difference between ductile and brittle behavior. In general, metals are ductile, and glass and ceramics are brittle (I'll leave polymers and composites out of the discussion.)

All materials deform when stressed. As long as the deformation is limited to the stretching/compressing of the microstructure, the deformations are reversible, and will disappear when the stress is removed. Fully reversible deformation is known as "elastic" deformation. Elastic deformation does not damage the material in any way.

When stress levels get high enough, the limits of microstructure stretching/compressing are exceeded. For brittle materials, once this stretching/compressing limit is exceeded, the atomic bonds rupture, and the material fails catastrophically (ie it shatters.) For ductile materials on the other hand, the microstructure can undergo additional deformation by altering the microstructure. These deformations are usually irreversible, and are known as "plastic" deformation. Plastic deformation represents damage to the microstructure of the material, and generally results in a weakening of the material. Over time and multiple stress cycles, the plastic damage will build up in the material, continuing to weaken the material. This build up of plastic damage and weakening is what we call "fatigue." Fatigued materials will fail at lower stresses than undamaged materials, and these lower stress failures are called "fatigue fails." If enough plastic deformation stress cycles are accumulated, the material can fail without additional stress.

In some cases the altered microstructure leads to a stronger/harder material. This is known as work hardening. This work hardened material is usually less ductile than the original material and more prone to cracking when the (higher) elastic stress limit is reached.

Now to the punch line: Since brittle materials fail before undergoing any plastic deformation, they don't build up plastic damage in the microstructure. Therefore they cannot "fatigue" in the classical sense.

Now some more on brittle failure:

Brittle materials normally fail at macroscopic stresses much lower than what is required to rupture the atomic bonds. IE their strength is much lower than would be predicted based on the strength of the bonds between the constituents. Why is this? The answer is cracks, most often microscopic cracks.

Stress is load divided by the cross sectional area supporting the load. In the presence of a crack, the cross sectional area is reduced, but the load remains constant, thus the stress is increased wherever there are cracks. And, this stress increase is not uniform. The stress is concentrated at the tip of the crack. The amount of stress concentration is determined by the length of the crack and the radius of the crack tip. Longer cracks and smaller radii lead to higher stress concentrations. The atomic bonds start to rupture when the stress at a crack tip exceeds the bond strength. Once the material starts to rupture, the crack gets longer, which causes the stress at the crack tip to increase even more. The result is sudden and catastrophic fail.

In practice, all brittle materials contain microscopic cracks which determine the engineering (usable) strength of the material. These are taken into account when designing objects made from brittle materials. The objects will continue to function as designed unless a much larger crack develops, and the stress concentration at the tip of that crack exceeds the working stress.

Now, there is a phenomenon known as "stress corrosion" that can affect glass and other brittle materials. Stress corrosion is often referred to as "static fatigue," but that is just lazy and confusing terminology. (The term "static fatigue" was coined before the mechanism of failure under static load was understood.) Stress corrosion is a different mechanism than cyclic stress fatigue or creep fatigue (which hasn't been discussed.)

Stress corrosion is the result of corrosion that is accelerated by the stress concentration at the tip of microcracks in brittle materials. The corrosion at the crack tip allows the crack to grow in length over time. If the crack ever grows to a length where the stress concentration at the tip exceeds the atomic bond strength, then rapid catastrophic failure can occur. Rates of stress corrosion are affected by availability of moisture at the crack tip and pH of the crack tip environment, as well as the particular material.

In theory, beverage bottles can be subject to stress corrosion. However, if the mechanism were operative in practice, we should see older bottles of carbonated beverages exploding on a regular basis, especially bottles with higher internal pressures. Since exploding bottles are rarely observed in the absence of massive overpressure. It is safe to assume that stress corrosion is not a significant factor in the life expectancy of beverage bottles. I did do a limited amount of searching for reports of stress corrosion bottle failures, but was unable to locate any.

I speak only from experience that I've had bottles stretch. I over-carbonated a stout and the bottles expediently showed signs of damage like some of my more used bottles.

As to observable stretching of beer bottles, I really doubt that you have ever seen this. Soda lime glass has a typical Young's modulus of 72 GPa or 10.4 million psi. This means that for every 1000 psi tensile stress in the glass, the glass would stretch ~1/10,000 th of an inch along each 1 inch of length (or 0.01%.) I know I could never detect this without special instruments.

Let's not forget the legal bit imprinted on so many glass bottles "one time use only": I ignore it because I understand it's over-cautious, but fatigue is a real problem.

Single use bottles are designed to be cheaper and lighter than multiuse bottles, so they are manufactured with significantly thinner glass. Because of this they are less able to withstand the rigors of being handled thru recycling and refilling. They are by design, crappier bottles.

Hope the above helps, and sorry it's so long. Feel free to ask questions.

Brew on :mug:
 
I rotate through 8 cases of Sam Adams empties. I have also wondered how many times I can reuse a bottle but I have never had one break or explode (yet). knock on wood.....
 
Hope the above helps, and sorry it's so long. Feel free to ask questions.

Brew on :mug:

That was extremely enlightening, and I read it all with care. To be honest, I wasn't planning on berry punching you but, even if I were, you didn't give me much to work with.

Two questions:
1) So with, say, a bridge: They are designed to stay well within elastic deformation (with large factors of safety), but elastic flexing of certain members causes fatigue damage. Perhaps I have this wrong, but that's what I was to understand. I'm just a naive Mech-E student pretending to know something about structural engineering.

2) I wish I had a decent camera. These fissures on my bottles are concoidal, randon, and appear to look as if the material on the outer surface of the bottle has begun to be stretched apart. Any thoughts on what this actually is? I inspect my bottles before I use them- even on the first use of brand new bottles. I do not believe these are defects or from mishandling.
 
Between commercial bottles, purchased bottles and bottle swaps with friends all in the mix, it's nearly impossible to keep track of what's what. If I have 'em, I use 'em.

That said, I was bottling from a keg on Monday and a bottle shattered when I pulled down on the bench capper. Last time that happened was 3-4 year ago, so it won't change my relaxed approach to reusing bottles.

It was just sad to loose even one bottle of that beer. It was a small (1-1/2 gallon of beer in a 2-1/2 gallon keg) experimental batch that turned out great.

So sorry for your loss Bro! Lol

Inevitably, when I do a small batch (1.75) my beer turns out unbelievable....lol actually most of my beer turns out really good but I'm scared and do a small batch now they are usually awesome.. (Knocking on wood)


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Two questions:
1) So with, say, a bridge: They are designed to stay well within elastic deformation (with large factors of safety), but elastic flexing of certain members causes fatigue damage. Perhaps I have this wrong, but that's what I was to understand. I'm just a naive Mech-E student pretending to know something about structural engineering.
You very likely know more about structures than I do. Not sure off the top of my head about "elastic fatigue." My specialization was ceramics, not metals. It's possible that the bridge members could be undergoing a (stress) corrosion process, or maybe there is some creep going on at less than the measured yield stress. I'll see if I can find anything that looks like a good explanation.

EDIT: Ok I found something on Wikipedia that sheds some light on this:
Another deformation mechanism is metal fatigue, which occurs primarily in ductile metals. It was originally thought that a material deformed only within the elastic range returned completely to its original state once the forces were removed. However, faults are introduced at the molecular level with each deformation. After many deformations, cracks will begin to appear, followed soon after by a fracture, with no apparent plastic deformation in between. Depending on the material, shape, and how close to the elastic limit it is deformed, failure may require thousands, millions, billions, or trillions of deformations.
Because of the type of atomic bonding in metals vs. glass and ceramics, these molecular level faults are more likely to occur in metals.
2) I wish I had a decent camera. These fissures on my bottles are concoidal, randon, and appear to look as if the material on the outer surface of the bottle has begun to be stretched apart. Any thoughts on what this actually is? I inspect my bottles before I use them- even on the first use of brand new bottles. I do not believe these are defects or from mishandling.
They had to have some kind of crack in order to fail. The instigating crack could have been too small for the naked eye to see. Without having good pics it's hard to say where the original crack was. With conchoidal fractures, the ridges often radiate outward from the original crack.

Brew on :mug:
 
I'm slowly replacing my bottles because I might be moving soon but I used most of them for 4 beers before I started replacing them
 
Remember, that in the days of commercially refilling returned bottles, it would have been logistically impossible for a refiller to know how many cycles were on a bottle, or how badly they had been handled. If the bottles had molded in manufacturing date stamps, they would have known how old they were. But, it would have been very expensive to inspect and cull bottles by date codes (and automated vision systems didn't exist back then.)

Brew on :mug:
 
While I've added bottles, I'm pretty sure I still have the first case of used bottles from 36 batches ago. I have no intention of replacing them. I'm still using my grandmother's pie plate, and some lanterns that are decades old. While capping is stressful, so is baking and containing flames. Glass windows last centuries.
 
5 years, I've had to buy 1 additional case to replace give aways. I use a bench capper. Only problems I've had have been with belgian corked bottles, when the wire cage scored the bottle causing it to fail.
 
Save the heavier ones and chuck the real thin ones. I use 22 oz. bottle a lot to save work (who wants a 12 oz beer anyway?) and I have a collection of bombproof swingtop litre bottles. Bottling goes really fast with those.
When I was a kid most beer was in re-used bottles. They were used so many times that the sides looked sand-blasted. The lasted for years and years.
 
Save the heavier ones and chuck the real thin ones. I use 22 oz. bottle a lot to save work (who wants a 12 oz beer anyway?) and I have a collection of bombproof swingtop litre bottles. Bottling goes really fast with those.
When I was a kid most beer was in re-used bottles. They were used so many times that the sides looked sand-blasted. The lasted for years and years.

On tap: Robust chocolate porter, Revelation Pale Ale, Bravo IPA. Bottled- Blueberry mead. Bottles- Murphy's session ale, Porter.
 
9 years brewing and I know I'm still using some of my original 0.5L swingtops I don't know about my 12 or 22oz. I have no way of telling how old they are. I only toss bottles when I can't get them visibly clean.

I've only ever had two bottles explode. They were out of a brett infected beer from previous pLambic bottles I didnt get clean. Hence why I always double check bottles now.
 
All materials fatigue if you apply enough stress. The fatigue stress level for most materials is way lower than the level at which it will deform, so there is no way of knowing how much the material has weakened. Depending on the stress level, a material may last a few cycles, or millions before failure.

I think at normal bottle pressures, most bottles will outlive any of our lifetimes.

If you have a batch which builds up high pressure (infection, referment in bottle, etc), I would recommend tossing the bottles. I had one batch go to 9 volumes (only 1 bottle broke) - I measured the gravity from another bottle to determine the carbonation level. I drank them quick and got rid of the bottles.

While I say most bottles will last a long time, there are some that are weaker than others. I have hundreds of bottles, and for the most part I don't have a problem. I added about 50 New Belgium bottles (bombers) a year ago, and have been finding cracks in a number of them after use. I inspect bottles before and after use, so I know the cracks are developing while pressurized. These cracks are circumferential, so they are not from the molding lines.
 
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