How long is too long in primary?

[Andy_LV]

havent played with gelatin (kinda fail to see need for it since I bottle and end up with yeast sediment anyway), but successfully cold crashed and later bottled directly from primary - beer was crystal clear until I had to tip fermenter back and forth and roused yeast cake too much (last 4 bottles out of 44 bottle batch). Tho its no biggie, settled down in bottles anyway and those last 4 bottles carbed and conditioned faster - got a decent taste after just 2 weeks in bottles.

 

[faroutadventure]

Autolysis is a big boogeyman of brewing. Don't worry about it. It's old teaching that's been pretty much disproved. I have a saison that's been sitting in primary since August and I just sampled it last night and there's no sign of off flavors from the yeast cake breaking down whatsoever.

What kind of yeast are you using on that saison?

 

[Justibone]

havent played with gelatin (kinda fail to see need for it since I bottle and end up with yeast sediment anyway), but successfully cold crashed and later bottled directly from primary - beer was crystal clear until I had to tip fermenter back and forth and roused yeast cake too much (last 4 bottles out of 44 bottle batch). Tho its no biggie, settled down in bottles anyway and those last 4 bottles carbed and conditioned faster - got a decent taste after just 2 weeks in bottles.

*gently strokes goatee*
*shreds of a wisp of a hint of an idea form in his maleficent brain*

Bwahahahaha!

I feel like Barney from "How I Met Your Mother"... challenge accepted! :rockin:

 

[dkreidler]

I have the worst primary fermenter tale to tell...though its woefully unfinished. Started a homebrew using a VERY OLD Mr. Beer kit we had given my dad, but which he gave back after being bored with the process. I forget, its the 1.5-2 gallon kit? Either way, I took the basic lager/pale ale(?) mix, added in brown sugar and ginger, and set it fermenting. Fermentation was slllllooowwwww, so I moved the fermenter to a few different places, found one that seemed warm enough to kick-start it a bit... and then promptly forgot about it. That was in... May.

It's still in there.

I'm frankly terrified at this point. Whole thing might hit the trash, since I have a full 6 gal, and won't ever be buying supplies for a mini-kit. Still, might be interesting to draw some off and see what happened over THAT long a time-scale. Probably nothing good...

 

[Revvy]

I'm frankly terrified at this point. Whole thing might hit the trash,

Why are you "frankly terrified?"

Since nothing pathogenic can grow in beer, you can't get sick from it. So there is no reason to fear it. And to contemplate tossing it without even considering tasting it is idiotic...you may be tossing away the best beer you ever tasted...Hell it may be the best mr beer beer ever made.

Like I said I just bottled a 5 month old beer that sat in primary, and it tasted amazing.

 

[dkreidler]

Why are you "frankly terrified?"

Since nothing pathogenic can grow in beer, you can't get sick from it.

You make great points. I left out one key point: There was never great evidence of fermentation. Hence, there is no great evidence of alcohol content. Hence, there is no great evidence of the beer not being able to make anyone sick.

Not even worried about that, in all honesty. It's more the **ASSUMED** (i know...) outcome of old, most likely crappy ingredients, left for 5 months in a crappy fermenter (no airlock...the lid just "vents" air... wtf?!).



I promise I'll at least taste it, and report back. If its fine, great! If its ok and sweet, I'll even toss in some fresh yeast and see what happens! If it gives me the trots, out it goes! :cross:

 

[dcHokie]

I left out one key point: There was never great evidence of fermentation. Hence, there is no great evidence of alcohol content. Hence, there is no great evidence of the beer not being able to make anyone sick.

Gravity readings should give you all the evidence you need.

 

[sportscrazed2]

question i'm brewing a beer that the directions say 2 weeks in primary 2 weeks in bottles. will i see any benefit or downside to letting it sit for a week or two longer?

 

[Hang Glider]

question i'm brewing a beer that the directions say 2 weeks in primary 2 weeks in bottles. will i see any benefit or downside to letting it sit for a week or two longer?

after all the posts you've read to get here ???


forget your directions. They were written by people who want to sell you more beer. (well, forget the timing, anyway).

4 weeks would be better, then 3 in the bottle. you WILL CERTAINLY see a benefit to letting it sit longer - cleaner, clearer, better beer!

 

[lamarguy]

you WILL CERTAINLY see a benefit to letting it sit longer - cleaner, clearer, better beer!

Disagree. Once a beer has matured, that's it; more time does NOT necessarily equate to "better" beer.

Some beers mature in a week, others two, and still others six weeks or longer. The key is to provide a proper fermentation (sufficient healthy yeast, temperature control, etc.) and sample the beer periodically.

 

[dcHokie]

4 weeks would be better, then 3 in the bottle. you WILL CERTAINLY see a benefit to letting it sit longer - cleaner, clearer, better beer!

Disagree. Once a beer has matured, that's it; more time does NOT necessarily equate to "better" beer.

Some beers mature in a week, others two, and still others six weeks or longer. The key is to provide a proper fermentation (sufficient healthy yeast, temperature control, etc.) and sample the beer periodically.

I believe the disagreement here is based on different interpretations of ‘mature’ (correct me if I’m wrong guys).

True, some (but not many) beers may reach their desired FG in one week, but I think what many here are saying is that even after reaching FG, additional time in primary allows the yeast to finish more completely. The result is most often a cleaner, clearer, better beer. This is my experience

 

[sportscrazed2]

I think I will give it 3 weeks probably not 4. 2 weeks as per directions and 1 for clarifying. can't hurt anything and will give me more time to drink as many bombers as possible for bottling

 

[mikeysab]

I believe the disagreement here is based on different interpretations of ‘mature’ (correct me if I’m wrong guys).

True, some (but not many) beers may reach their desired FG in one week, but I think what many here are saying is that even after reaching FG, additional time in primary allows the yeast to finish more completely. The result is most often a cleaner, clearer, better beer. This is my experience

I've read about beers going from grain to glass in a little over a week. Maybe a simple cream ale, or a steam beer. Obviously has to be kegged, but those aren't very complex beers. I think a beer that's a little more complex NEEDS time to mature. If you take a beer that just finished fermenting, kegged it, and drank it the next day, most beers would be drinkable, but you'd rather let them mature and be ready. Yeasts are more complex than just eating sugar and making alcohol. They're polite, and clean up after themselves, and turn our wort into glorious beer. They need a chance to do it though. Once fermentation is over, that doesn't mean the whole process is over.

Revvy, please tell me this isn't your dog:

 

[lamarguy]

I believe the disagreement here is based on different interpretations of ‘mature’ (correct me if I’m wrong guys).

The disagreement is about making a blanket statement such as "4 weeks in primary will result in a better beer". Once a beer is mature (i.e., flavor stable), there is no benefit to leaving it on the yeast. Every beer is different.

My point is, you should sample your beer periodically throughout fermentation, especially during maturation. If it's not ready, give it more time or take evasive steps to correct an undesirable flavor/aroma issue (e.g., high FG, diacetyl, etc.).

Fermentation isn't like waiting for paint to dry. It's a biological process that should be monitored.

 

[ChshreCat]

What kind of yeast are you using on that saison?

Wyeast 3711

 

[notjustgc]

I just came across this Q&A with John Palmer that addresses this issue directly. He couldn't be more crystal clear in his response.

Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:
John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:
These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

 

[Revvy]

I just came across this Q&A with John Palmer that addresses this issue directly. He couldn't be more crystal clear in his response.

Thanks for finding this and posting this!!!! It's his most direct answer yet!!!! Though it seems he's been reading my writing for the last 5 years...he kinda took some of that stuff verbatum from here. LOL.

 

[mikeysab]

Can that single post be made into a sticky? Or can every new member of HBT be made aware of this post? The question is still asked daily on HBT, even though it's all over the place. Instead of a decal, every new member should be sent a poster with that statement on it.

 

[benharper13]

Fat people are hard to kidnap your right mikeysab.

 

[Revvy]

Can that single post be made into a sticky? Or can every new member of HBT be made aware of this post? The question is still asked daily on HBT, even though it's all over the place. Instead of a decal, every new member should be sent a poster with that statement on it.

Yeah I wish...but that's why I posted it in this thread and the uber no-secondary thread, and will probably add it to a "blogpost" with what I've written, I wanted to have it in a form where I could search myself and find it.

 

[NorCalAdam]

do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring.

So my question is about dry-hopping. Would I need to rack to a secondary when dry-hopping or wait for fermentation to complete then dry-hop in the primary?

 

[Revvy]

So my question is about dry-hopping. Would I need to rack to a secondary when dry-hopping or wait for fermentation to complete then dry-hop in the primary?

Many folks, including me dry hop in primary these days. I just wait til week 3 of my 4 week primary and drop them in.

 

[jdlev]

Many folks, including me dry hop in primary these days. I just wait til week 3 of my 4 week primary and drop them in.

Blasphemy!!!

 

[Revvy]

Blasphemy!!!

??? WTF ???

I wasn't the first on here to try it either....I was a late convert to trying it. In fact if you read my earliest posts on this subject from 5 years ago, I was saying that I racked only to dry hop...but that stopped at least 3 years ago...but why the "blashpemy" comment? Dryhopping is NOT a form of secondary fermentation...it's a form of ADDING AROMA to the beer.

 

[NorCalAdam]

Many folks, including me dry hop in primary these days. I just wait til week 3 of my 4 week primary and drop them in.

Awesome! I hate moving, cleaning and anything to do with the glass carboy. Going to be stocking up on some cheap plastics this weekend.
I got a 90 min in the primary that I was going to move Friday, so I will leave and dry hop later on.

Thanks for the quick response.

 

[pyrobrew]

Is four weeks in the primary for a cooper's kit with cooper's yeast a good idea?

From what I've read their yeast doesn't seem to be the greatest.

 

[Revvy]

Is four weeks in the primary for a cooper's kit with cooper's yeast a good idea?

From what I've read their yeast doesn't seem to be the greatest.

It's fine, it's one of the ways to improve the quality of the kit beer.

 

[pyrobrew]

It's fine, it's one of the ways to improve the quality of the kit beer.

Perfect thanks for the reply Revvy, that solves it for me

(After reading many posts on this forum I started to wonder if because it's just a cheap coopers kit it might be better not to let it sit too long in the primary.)

 

[mikeysab]

Coopers kits definitely need help, but their yeast is fine. I did three of them before switching to PM's, and they all tasted the same. Their fermenter is a great piece of equipment....best one I have.

 

[Toga]

You can produce drinkable beer with the coopers kits. I have done a few. I personally did not care for the ones I tried. The biggest upgrade on those kits is to swap out the yeast for a better yeast. Leave it in primary for a few weeks at least to let it clean up bottle it up and enjoy in a few weeks when fully carbed.

 

[timbudtwo]

Many folks, including me dry hop in primary these days. I just wait til week 3 of my 4 week primary and drop them in.

I am interested in dry hopping but I never rack to secondary. Will the hops settle in the primary bucket and be okay to rack straight to bottle? I don't want hops floating around in my brew once its bottled and ready for drinkin.

 

[lumpher]

if it's a type that needs secondarying, i go 3 weeks in primary

 

[Justibone]

I am interested in dry hopping but I never rack to secondary. Will the hops settle in the primary bucket and be okay to rack straight to bottle? I don't want hops floating around in my brew once its bottled and ready for drinkin.

You should generally not allow hops to go into the bottles. You can put a mesh bag as a filter over your siphon and siphon to your bottling bucket that way. The bag won't keep out yeast, but it will keep out the larger stuff like hops, raspberries, the Death Star... you know, stuff that might be in your secondary mixed with the trub.