How long does beer made with Windsor yeast take to carb in the bottle?

[KonureKing]

Hello I was just wondering since Windsor Ale yeast is so rapid at fermentation is it also really fast at carbing the bottle? Thanks!

 

[dmtaylor]

Great question. I believe the answer is probably yes. Should be well carbonated in 7 to 10 days I would think. But I could be wrong. Hmm... I'll look up some of my past notes with Windsor yeast, maybe I have some good notes on this..... yes, I was right! Fully carbonated in 7 days, and probably less.

 

[RM-MN]

Carbonated but with poor head retention or no heading, about 24 to 36 hours. Starting to get good heading, about a week. Decent heading at 2 weeks, really good heading with good lacing, about 3 weeks. Most ale yeasts will work at about this schedule if kept at room temp. Cooler temps mean longer times.

 

[dmtaylor]

Here's my exact cut & pasted notes from the first batch I used Windsor on (yeah I get carried away with my notes, but as you can see, they come in handy sometimes):

It wasn't over-primed, either. Months later I was still enjoying it, and submitted some to competitions that scored well:

Well, huh..... looks like I liked it better with age. But I think that was mainly because the bitterness had mellowed out more by then. This was a Pete's Wicked clone (recipe from Pete himself).

 

[KonureKing]

Thanks for all the information, I appreciate it!

 

[chungyfied]

I tested M15 yeast (which should be similar to Windsor) by priming for 2.0 vol in a keg and then attaching a pressure gauge to the in post. Sitting at 28C, the pressure reached max at 72 hours.

So what I do now for that recipe is let it carbonate for 4 days (28C, 2.0 vol) then chuck it in the fridge for a minimum of 24 hours before drinking. If bottle conditioning at lower temps and / or higher volumes, I'd say 7 days is a safe bet

Edit: Forgot to mention, a large part also depends on how much yeast you manage to floc out during primary fermentation. But so far, the only yeast I've found taking a long time to carb in the bottle is S04. Every other yeast I've used does the job within 5 - 7 days even with cold crash and gelatin fining.

 

[Miraculix]

Carbonated but with poor head retention or no heading, about 24 to 36 hours. Starting to get good heading, about a week. Decent heading at 2 weeks, really good heading with good lacing, about 3 weeks. Most ale yeasts will work at about this schedule if kept at room temp. Cooler temps mean longer times.

I found this to be true.

But I cannot explain to myself why this is happening. Why is a fully carbonated drink with no foam, retaining foam much better after two or three more weeks? I do not understand this.

Really, I don't, but I do want to know.

 

[chungyfied]

I found this to be true.

But I cannot explain to myself why this is happening. Why is a fully carbonated drink with no foam, retaining foam much better after two or three more weeks? I do not understand this.

Really, I don't, but I do want to know.

Interesting.. I too find that beer can be fully carbonated but foam would be subpar. I assume certain compounds are messing with the foaming properties of the beer and giving it time to precipitate out of solution and settling means it wont interfere with the foam?

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting.. I too find that beer can be fully carbonated but foam would be subpar. I assume certain compounds are messing with the foaming properties of the beer and giving it time to precipitate out of solution and settling means it wont interfere with the foam?

I don't think so. If that would be the case, head retention would be bad again, once the bottle is shaken. But that's not the case.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Maybe I still suck at fermentation, but I've found it best to let the bottles sit for a full month before tasting to fully get rid of any remaining diacetyl and acetaldehyde etc. Bottle conditioning is more than just carbonation as I understand it.

 

[RM-MN]

I found this to be true.

But I cannot explain to myself why this is happening. Why is a fully carbonated drink with no foam, retaining foam much better after two or three more weeks? I do not understand this.

Really, I don't, but I do want to know.

How many bottles of poorly carbonated beer with no heading did you have to sacrifice to learn this? I've tried a couple at 24 hours at room temp followed by 24 in the refrigerator to find out about the carbonation without heading, a few more at a week to see how the heading had progressed, and more yet with the two week at room temp.

 

[Miraculix]

How many bottles of poorly carbonated beer with no heading did you have to sacrifice to learn this? I've tried a couple at 24 hours at room temp followed by 24 in the refrigerator to find out about the carbonation without heading, a few more at a week to see how the heading had progressed, and more yet with the two week at room temp.

Entire batches

I was thinking that my beer just sucked regarding head retention and just drank it almost all before it fully developed. Left a few bottles, had them one or two months later and guess my surprise.

Had to do this two or three times and had to read about it here to fully process it it and draw conclusions though

... Not my brightest moment I must admit.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

This whole process of carbonation/head development is a mystery to me as well...
Interestingly, I found that it happens the same no matter at what temperature you store the beer after the initial conditioning phase.
I usually just keep my ales about 1 week at room temp and then I will store them in my basement (temps between 55-68 depending on the season). For hoppy brews I will try to refrigerate as many bottles as I can after 1 week of conditioning at room temp.
Also there, the head and carbonation continues to develop while in the fridge. IME it dosn't even take necessary longer compared to the bottles stored in the basement (as others here stated, it usually takes 4-5 weeks to reach max. head retention and lacing).
So is the yeast a player in this process, or does it depend on other factors? (Yeast should actually go dormant at fridge temperatures...).
What are the experiences of the force-carbonating folks? Many claim that their beer is ready to enjoy as soon as carbonated...is there no more
positive development beyond that point? Why should there be a difference between bottle conditioned and force carbonated beer, if "CO2-is-CO2"?

The head development is visually obviuos, but I believe that the mouthfeel also improves significantly over this time period. The carbonation does not necessarily increase, but it somehow changes...

If someone has insights into this process, I'd be seriously interested, too...

 

[Miraculix]

This whole process of carbonation/head development is a mystery to me as well...
Interestingly, I found that it happens the same no matter at what temperature you store the beer after the initial conditioning phase.
I usually just keep my ales about 1 week at room temp and then I will store them in my basement (temps between 55-68 depending on the season). For hoppy brews I will try to refrigerate as many bottles as I can after 1 week of conditioning at room temp.
Also there, the head and carbonation continues to develop while in the fridge. IME it dosn't even take necessary longer compared to the bottles stored in the basement (as others here stated, it usually takes 4-5 weeks to reach max. head retention and lacing).
So is the yeast a player in this process, or does it depend on other factors? (Yeast should actually go dormant at fridge temperatures...).
What are the experiences of the force-carbonating folks? Many claim that their beer is ready to enjoy as soon as carbonated...is there no more
positive development beyond that point? Why should there be a difference between bottle conditioned and force carbonated beer, if "CO2-is-CO2"?

The head development is visually obviuos, but I believe that the mouthfeel also improves significantly over this time period. The carbonation does not necessarily increase, but it somehow changes...

If someone has insights into this process, I'd be seriously interested, too...

I also witnessed this moutufeel development in conjunction with the development in head retention. It's also a complete mystery to me.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Couldn't it be proteins decomposing and forming new compounds, the same with sugars and dextrins, altering foam and percieved taste/mouthfeel?

 

[Miraculix]

Couldn't it be proteins decomposing and forming new compounds, the same with sugars and dextrins, altering foam and percieved taste/mouthfeel?

Probably!

Maybe glycoproteins forming over time?

 

[dmtaylor]

But I cannot explain to myself why this is happening. Why is a fully carbonated drink with no foam, retaining foam much better after two or three more weeks? I do not understand this.

Really, I don't, but I do want to know.

In engineering processes, we use terms for this phenomenon including "step change", "equilibrium", and "steady state". The way I see it, what is happening here when we prime a bottle is:

First the yeast starts eating the priming sugar, which produces CO2. This partially carbonates the beer but more than that it pressurizes the air space above the beer.

As the priming sugar continues to be consumed, more and more pressure builds up in that air space. If you open a bottle at this point, you will often hear quite a loud "POP", while the beer may or may not be well carbonated yet, and I think this just depends on the yeast strain and how active it is, the timing of opening it, several variables. The loud "POP" is because the head space was quite well pressurized, but the gas and liquid had not yet reached equilibrium.

Then after the air space is well pressurized while the priming sugar is mostly gone or all gone, then the CO2 from that space will steadily dissolve back into the beer until it reaches and equilibrium state with partial pressures in the gas and liquid phases. At this point of equilibrium, the beer is "fully carbonated". This takes the usual ~2 weeks.

So when we pop a bottle a little too fast, look for that loud "POP" and know that the beer is really not fully carbonated yet.

You might also hear a lack of any pop whatsoever. In that case, the yeast is sluggish and it will just take an extra week or two to finish eating the priming sugar and finish the job.

In the case of Windsor (or M15, which is very closely related), I do think you'll get full carbonation quicker than many other yeasts, since this yeast is such a major beast, finishing any fermentation in 40-48 hours. But then like I said it still can take a few days for the CO2 produced to dissolve back into the beer until it reaches the end state of equilibrium.

Hope this helps.

 

[Miraculix]

In engineering processes, we use terms for this phenomenon including "step change", "equilibrium", and "steady state". The way I see it, what is happening here when we prime a bottle is:

First the yeast starts eating the priming sugar, which produces CO2. This partially carbonates the beer but more than that it pressurizes the air space above the beer.

As the priming sugar continues to be consumed, more and more pressure builds up in that air space. If you open a bottle at this point, you will often hear quite a loud "POP", while the beer may or may not be well carbonated yet, and I think this just depends on the yeast strain and how active it is, the timing of opening it, several variables. The loud "POP" is because the head space was quite well pressurized, but the gas and liquid had not yet reached equilibrium.

Then after the air space is well pressurized while the priming sugar is mostly gone or all gone, then the CO2 from that space will steadily dissolve back into the beer until it reaches and equilibrium state with partial pressures in the gas and liquid phases. At this point of equilibrium, the beer is "fully carbonated". This takes the usual ~2 weeks.

So when we pop a bottle a little too fast, look for that loud "POP" and know that the beer is really not fully carbonated yet.

You might also hear a lack of any pop whatsoever. In that case, the yeast is sluggish and it will just take an extra week or two to finish eating the priming sugar and finish the job.

In the case of Windsor (or M15, which is very closely related), I do think you'll get full carbonation quicker than many other yeasts, since this yeast is such a major beast, finishing any fermentation in 40-48 hours. But then like I said it still can take a few days for the CO2 produced to dissolve back into the beer until it reaches the end state of equilibrium.

Hope this helps.

I don't think that this is the case here, as the yeast is not releasing the co2 into the air space but directly into the liquid. So if anything, it would be actually the opposite, the co2 would need time to reach equilibrium in the air space when coming out of solution.

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't think that this is the case here, as the yeast is not releasing the co2 into the air space but directly into the liquid. So if anything, it would be actually the opposite, the co2 would need time to reach equilibrium in the air space when coming out of solution.

Chemical reactions love it when a gas is formed. Molecules love to be gas, I guess.

Any fermentation I've ever seen, there is CO2 coming out of solution vigorously, and out through the airlock. In the bottle, this same CO2 is released but is all trapped in the head space. Over time, some but not all of this CO2 dissolves back into the beer as carbonic acid. That's my thinking on it.

 

[Miraculix]

Chemical reactions love it when a gas is formed. Molecules love to be gas, I guess.

Any fermentation I've ever seen, there is CO2 coming out of solution vigorously, and out through the airlock. In the bottle, this same CO2 is released but is all trapped in the head space. Over time, some but not all of this CO2 dissolves back into the beer as carbonic acid. That's my thinking on it.

Yes, but that is happening not within room pressure but within an already pressurised environment. This means, the co2 that wants to be gas, is only allowed to be gas when the pressure in the head (and within the solution, same pressure) allows this. So only the amount goes out of solution, that is allowed allowed for. Not more. This means, once there is no more co2 being produced, the equilibrium is already there, or, if your want to be really precise, there is a tiny bit more co2 in solution that the pressure actually allows for, so equilibrium is close.

As the pressure builds up, less co2 can get out of solution into the gas state.

Your thinking keg-wise, where the co2 has to get into the liquid, coming from the gas phase. in this case here it's the opposite, the co2 has to get out of the liquid. It won't go out in excess just to get back into solution over time. That wouldn't make sense from a gas law point of view, given that temperature stays the same.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

As the priming sugar continues to be consumed, more and more pressure builds up in that air space. If you open a bottle at this point, you will often hear quite a loud "POP", while the beer may or may not be well carbonated yet, and I think this just depends on the yeast strain and how active it is, the timing of opening it, several variables. The loud "POP" is because the head space was quite well pressurized, but the gas and liquid had not yet reached equilibrium.

Hmm... Am I the only one that observes quite the opposite in my beers? Generally I experience the loudest "POPs" once the beers are fully carbonated and conditioned, i.e. starting from approx. one month post bottling date.
And I observe this no matter at what temp the beers were kept after the initial 1-week conditioning period, be it at basement or fridge temp.

 

[chungyfied]

First the yeast starts eating the priming sugar, which produces CO2. This partially carbonates the beer but more than that it pressurizes the air space above the beer.

I actually think otherwise regarding this. From my experiments priming in a keg and measuring the pressure throughout, the pressure increases and plateaus at a max level similar to the theoretical pressure at a given temperature and carbonation volume. If the the CO2 is produced more in the headspace before dissolving into the beer, we should see the pressure level overshoot the theoretical level before dropping back down to the theoretical level as it dissolves from headspace into the beer.

What i think is happening is because the CO2 produced by the yeast is so fine that it is absorbed into the beer even before entering the headspace

Edit: What is true however, is once carbonation is completed and the beer it stored cold, it would take some time for the beer / headspace to reach a new equilibrium at the colder temperature

 

[RM-MN]

The head development is visually obviuos, but I believe that the mouthfeel also improves significantly over this time period. The carbonation does not necessarily increase, but it somehow changes...

I've noticed that increase in mouthfeel in a robust porter. The first bottle I opened was so disappointing, thin, watery and this continued for a while. Bummer. Then at about 3 months I noticed that the porter really was robust, flavorful, and good mouthfeel.