How does flavour change with long ageing in brett 2ndary beers?

[Twinkeelfool]

Hey guys, a few weeks ago I kegged a saison, but bottled a few with some orval dregs. I planned on leaving for months, but couldn't help it and tried one the other night. Really didn't know what to expect but it was quite nice, and the fruity saison went well with the nice earthy funk. Anyway, if I leave them for a few more months, any ideas how the flavour will change ??. Does it get stronger? Or smoother ?. I really quite like how it is now!.

 

[sweetcell]

you'll get more funk.

if you liek them now, drink them now... but save a few for a few months from now, so you can kick yourself at having drank all those beers while they were so young

 

[badlee]

You may well find that the tartness increases with time.
I try to have one each of my 3 ways split every month,but it would be so easy to just kick the case now.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

you'll get more funk.

if you liek them now, drink them now... but save a few for a few months from now, so you can kick yourself at having drank all those beers while they were so young

I have one more bottle left!, quite liking it at the moment. I have more planned though so when I have a few different batches it'll be easier for them to age. Only problem I have is that my "normal" beers don't quite do it for me at the moment.

 

[spenghali]

this might help (should probably be stickied):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/

 

[sweetcell]

You may well find that the tartness increases with time.

just brett, in a bottle, won't give you tartness. brett needs to oxygen to produce acetic acid... and even that appears to be fairly rare.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Thanks guys. Been really loving playing around with brett. I always keep some orval around, just in case i want to funk up a few bottles of each batch. Eventually I'll get a wyeast smack pack, but at the moment it's so easy to play with the orval dregs. I have a 1.073 porter which will be ready for secondary before Christmas, and I'm definately going to hit it with some more dregs, probably 10 litres ( 2.5gallons? ). Though I'll have to leave to longer than my belgian ales, they finish so low I'm not scared of blowing bottles up, but the porter will probably finish around 1.015, so I'll have to keep an eye on the fg before bottling.

 

[sweetcell]

but the porter will probably finish around 1.015

don't tell brett what to do!!! :cross:

seriously tho, why do you think it'll FG at 1.015?

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Before I put brett in yeah it should be close to that, based on other big English ales I've brewed.

After brett goes in I have absolutely no idea haha, i plan on taking gravity readings once a week til it stays constant.

 

[sweetcell]

ah ok, i thought you were saying that the brett will take the beer down 1.015

take weekly readings if you like, but you could probably give it a few months on its own and save yourself the time, effort (and potentially beer, depending on how you're measuring). with 1.015 to work this, it's going to take a while for the brett to do it's thing. to me, taking weekly reading is kinda like the kid asking "are we there yet" a million times when you've barely pulled out of the driveway. yes, that kid was once me.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Ok mate, thanks, I'll do monthly readings. Sucks though coz it'll tie up my funky fermentor. Might need another one haha

 

[sweetcell]

one always needs more funky fermenters

i'm about to fill my third one shortly. brew, fill, and forget.

 

[TNGabe]

one always needs more funky fermenters i'm about to fill my third one shortly. brew, fill, and forget.

I'll second the need for more fermenters. I've got a dozen tied up now.

OP, have you thought about what your Orval'd porter will taste like? If you have, great, but I can see the flavors clashing. Dark funky beers take more planning than pale ones, at least for me. Roasted grains and/or malts need to be chosen thoughtfully as their astringency can often be magnified by or just clash with the critters. Orval dregs tend to create an aggressive flavor profile. I'm hesitant to suggest wlp645 Brett c as it is famous for 'tire fire' smells that may or may not resolve, but a milder Brett would be my choice for a porter. Ecy04 might be a good one if you can track it down.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I'll second the need for more fermenters. I've got a dozen tied up now.

OP, have you thought about what your Orval'd porter will taste like? If you have, great, but I can see the flavors clashing. Dark funky beers take more planning than pale ones, at least for me. Roasted grains and/or malts need to be chosen thoughtfully as their astringency can often be magnified by or just clash with the critters. Orval dregs tend to create an aggressive flavor profile. I'm hesitant to suggest wlp645 Brett c as it is famous for 'tire fire' smells that may or may not resolve, but a milder Brett would be my choice for a porter. Ecy04 might be a good one if you can track it down.

I was hoping for just some of the funk I normally get from orval dregs. My porters are usually more malty roasty than full on astringent/bitter/roasty.

I'm in Australia and don't have access to the Ecy yeast. Most of the home brew shops here only have a limited supply of brett strains. Brett c does seem to be the historical choice I suppose. I might have to look around and see if I can get a smack pack of proper brett, rather than use the orval dregs.


Which is more mild, brett b or brett c?. Would brett L be ok?, from reading I'm not sure it'd go well with porter, but I'm new to funk!.

Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated!

 

[TNGabe]

I was hoping for just some of the funk I normally get from orval dregs. My porters are usually more malty roasty than full on astringent/bitter/roasty. I'm in Australia and don't have access to the Ecy yeast. Most of the home brew shops here only have a limited supply of brett strains. Brett c does seem to be the historical choice I suppose. I might have to look around and see if I can get a smack pack of proper brett, rather than use the orval dregs. Which is more mild, brett b or brett c?. Would brett L be ok?, from reading I'm not sure it'd go well with porter, but I'm new to funk!. Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated!

Getting ECY here is difficult, so getting it in Oz would probably be impossible. Read up on Brett c in secondary, I've only used as primary strain so I can't speak from experience, by I think I've read about some serious potential for off phenols. I've also read suggestions for lambicus with darker beers as the pie cherry flavors would go well with dark malts. Brett c is more mild in theory, but read up on folks experiences. Even if your porters tend towards malty/roasty, you may find aggressive funk from Orval dregs will change that. Please keep us posted with what you do and how it turns out over the months. I'd like to start using English yeast for a brown ale and a stout and I'm sure that will lead to me experimenting with a brett barleywine at some point.

 

[Austin_]

I have a darker beer going right now that's being secondaried with a B. claussenii/lambicus mix (Primaried with Belle saison). Not quite as dark and roasty as a porter, but darker than a brown. The darkness came from a dose of chocolate rye I subbed for part of my normal rye percentage. I'm several months in and the jury is still out. Sometimes I pull a sample and really like it. Other days I'm ready to dump it to free up space. Will be interesting to see how it goes. I knew it would be a gamble when I tried it, but figured there's only be one way to find out.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I added the dregs of a 3 year old homebrewed lambic to my beire de garde brune, as well as orval dregs. It's only a few weeks old, but oh man it is quite nice. There is some brett funk, but there is a huge sour cherry aroma and a slight sourness to the flavour. I can't believe how much the lambic dregs have added to the beer. It is going to be very hard to let the other 5 or 6 champagne bottles age haha.

My porter is chugging long nicely, and I have ordered wyeast brett b to pitch in secondary. Hopefully end of next week it'll be on the bugs.

 

[sweetcell]

Which is more mild, brett b or brett c?. Would brett L be ok?

from least to most funky: C --> B --> L. so if you want mild, go with C.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

So, my porter finished at 1.020. I hit it with a vial of brett b, and various bottle dregs ( cantillon rose de gambrinus, lindemans cuvée renee among others ). Also added rum soaked oak chips. Left it for a few months til gravity was stable over a month. Just bottled it at 1.009. Half carbed them, as i plan on leaving for a year before I taste. Finished up at 8.5%.

In the meantime I'm drinking my beire de garde brune + funky dregs. The cherry aroma and flavour is so nice.

Looks like one of the home brew suppliers here is stocking the white labs funky range. Woo hoo!