How do you make (AG) wort for a starter?

[Dan]

When you pressure can something, you boil water (and your jars) in a somewhat sealed vessel and the pressure builds up inside. There is always some sort of pressure relief that regulates the pressure. Different foods need to be held at a certain pressure for a given amount of time to properly preserve. 15 psi for 15 minutes will render the wort sterile. For yours, I'm not sure what the settings correspond to in terms of pressure. If you knew what model it was I might be able to look it up.

Cool, thanks BBL. The stamp on the bottom of the pot is Vagor, made in Spain and says "Vitro Induction" I appreciate the help but feel a bit guilty asking any one to figure out what type of pot this is.. But hey! if you want to i won't turn down help.

to you BBL!

 

[Revvy]

When you can, and you don't need a pressure cooker to do it, any boiling waterbath can do. You are in essence pasteurizing/sterilizing everything, the container and contents at once. Then as the jar cools, you are also creating a vacuum in the jars which further protects the contents from anything getting in. A pressure cooker really just speeds up the processm but it's like a stirplate where making starters are concernd, it's nice to have if you have one, but you can do it without it.

You can do it in any pot that can hold your jars in.

 

[adamreef]

So it's 10:22 pm, I have a gallon of water and 4 cups of crushed two row (my scale died so had to do basic volume measurements) sitting in a crockpot which for the time being is set on high. I didn't realize it was so late so thinking about setting the crockpot to low before I go to bed and just let it mash away till morning.

How did this work? I would be shocked if it didn't blow right by mash temp (even on low) too fast to get effective conversion.

Adam

 

[adamreef]

When you can, and you don't need a pressure cooker to do it, any boiling waterbath can do. You are in essence pasteurizing/sterilizing everything, the container and contents at once. Then as the jar cools, you are also creating a vacuum in the jars which further protects the contents from anything getting in. A pressure cooker really just speeds up the processm but it's like a stirplate where making starters are concernd, it's nice to have if you have one, but you can do it without it.

You can do it in any pot that can hold your jars in.

With all due respect, this is dangerous advice. Boiling does not sterilize it sanitizes. Proper pressure cooking effectively sterilizes. Improper canning techniques can lead to spoilage of the canned product, possibly by disease causing organisms including botulism.

If you are going to can wort, please research and understand proper canning techniques. For most of us, freezing is safer and easier.

Adam

 

[Revvy]

With all due respect, this is dangerous advice. Boiling does not sterilize it sanitizes.

With all due respect, you do know that people have been canning by the boiling method for hundreds of years, right????????? It's hardly dangerous if it's considered one of the best methods of preserving food, is it?

And if you google Boiling and Steralization you will find plenty of citations that reference boiling as a means of steralization. Like this- http://www.mhcs.health.nsw.gov.au/publication_pdfs/669/HTS-669-ENG.pdf

According to the National Center for Home Food Preservation...To steralize jars prior to canning you boil them. Sterilization of Empty Jars

How To Sterilize Canning Jars

You may want to quibbile on some microbiological level, but it canning food, which canning wort is the same thing, the commonly accepted term for boiling something to render it usable for canning IS sterilization.

 

[Revvy]

From Simply Canning.....

In Water Bath Canning sterilizing jars is not needed IF processing time is more than 10 minutes Most recipes call for at least 10 minutes processing time or more.

You don't need to sterilize for pressure canning. Everything will be well sterilized by the high heat involved in pressure processing.

Read more: http://www.simplycanning.com/sterilizing-jars.html#ixzz1kqrqOud6

You must however start with clean jars so be sure and always wash your jars before you do any type of canning. I am assuming you would know that all equipment needs to be clean before any canning.

I don't personally use any recipes that call for less than 10 minutes, I am at high altitude and everything has time added.

If you do have a recipe that calls for less than 10 minutes you might consider adding time to your processing. This way you can simply skip this step. It is up to you.

Go ahead and check your recipe, does it call for less than 10 minutes processing time? Don't forget to figure you altitude. If so you should be sterilizing first.
Here's how:

Place empty jars right side up on the rack in a boiling-water canner.
Fill the canner and jars with hot (not boiling) water to one inch above the tops of the jars.
Bring to a boil and boil 10 minutes.
Carefully remove hot, sterilized jars one at a time and drain.
They will be hot!
Leave the hot water left in your canner for processing filled jars.

Continue with your canning recipe.

Read more: http://www.simplycanning.com/sterilizing-jars.html#ixzz1kqrycrcv

 

[adamreef]

Revvy,

Yes, people have been water bath canning for hundreds of years... with certain foods. Foods that are highly acidic or that have large amounts of added sugar are included in this group. Most foods DO require pressure canning. If this wasn't true, why would anyone own a pressure canner? The section of the canning website that you quoted about water bath canning is specifically for the high acid foods that can be safely canned this way. There is another section on that website (which I quote below) that deals with pressure canning for low acid foods.

If you google boiling and sterilization, you will find many references that say "sterilization" when they mean "sanitation". Frighteningly, this includes the health department link that you listed. Not only does boiling not sterilize to begin with, once the items are removed, any part of the item exposed to air would no longer be sterile. When you properly pressure can, the lids seal to the jars before the lid is removed from the pressure canner, preventing non-sterile air from contacting the food.

From the pressure canning page of the site you referenced:

These directions are for pressure canning low acid foods. This includes any meat and most vegetables.

Pickles, jam jelly, or fruits are all high acid foods. If you are preserving these you need to be on my Water Bath Canning Page.​

Wort is not a high acid food. a pH in the low 4's is required to safely can without pressure.

From the Sterliziation wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)) Not that even here, they incorrectly use the term "sterilization". In any case, the point is that they go on to correctly state that pressure canning effectively sterilizes.

Although imperfect, cooking and canning are the most common applications of heat sterilization. Boiling water kills the vegetative stage of all common microbes. Roasting meat until it is well done typically completely sterilizes the surface. Since the surface is also the part of food most likely to be contaminated by microbes, roasting usually prevents food poisoning. Note that the common methods of cooking food do not sterilize food - they simply reduce the number of disease-causing micro-organisms to a level that is not dangerous for people with normal digestive and immune systems.

Pressure cooking is analogous to autoclaving and when performed correctly renders food sterile. However, some foods are notoriously difficult to sterilize with home canning equipment, so expert recommendations should be followed for home processing to avoid food poisoning.​

So, I will freely admit that part of my motivation for my initial reply was because the whole Sanitation vs. Sterilization thing is a major pet peeve of mine (I work in surgery, sanitized doesn't cut it!) but also because I truly believe that improperly canning wort (which is made to be a great growth medium) can be potentially dangerous.

Adam

 

[MalFet]

Revvy,

Yes, people have been water bath canning for hundreds of years... with certain foods. Foods that are highly acidic or that have large amounts of added sugar are included in this group. Most foods DO require pressure canning. If this wasn't true, why would anyone own a pressure canner? The section of the canning website that you quoted about water bath canning is specifically for the high acid foods that can be safely canned this way. There is another section on that website (which I quote below) that deals with pressure canning for low acid foods.

If you google boiling and sterilization, you will find many references that say "sterilization" when they mean "sanitation". Frighteningly, this includes the health department link that you listed. Not only does boiling not sterilize to begin with, once the items are removed, any part of the item exposed to air would no longer be sterile. When you properly pressure can, the lids seal to the jars before the lid is removed from the pressure canner, preventing non-sterile air from contacting the food.

From the pressure canning page of the site you referenced:

These directions are for pressure canning low acid foods. This includes any meat and most vegetables.

Pickles, jam jelly, or fruits are all high acid foods. If you are preserving these you need to be on my Water Bath Canning Page.​

Wort is not a high acid food. a pH in the low 4's is required to safely can without pressure.

From the Sterliziation wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)) Not that even here, they incorrectly use the term "sterilization". In any case, the point is that they go on to correctly state that pressure canning effectively sterilizes.

Although imperfect, cooking and canning are the most common applications of heat sterilization. Boiling water kills the vegetative stage of all common microbes. Roasting meat until it is well done typically completely sterilizes the surface. Since the surface is also the part of food most likely to be contaminated by microbes, roasting usually prevents food poisoning. Note that the common methods of cooking food do not sterilize food - they simply reduce the number of disease-causing micro-organisms to a level that is not dangerous for people with normal digestive and immune systems.

Pressure cooking is analogous to autoclaving and when performed correctly renders food sterile. However, some foods are notoriously difficult to sterilize with home canning equipment, so expert recommendations should be followed for home processing to avoid food poisoning.​

So, I will freely admit that part of my motivation for my initial reply was because the whole Sanitation vs. Sterilization thing is a major pet peeve of mine (I work in surgery, sanitized doesn't cut it!) but also because I truly believe that improperly canning wort (which is made to be a great growth medium) can be potentially dangerous.

Adam

+1. My wife the physician and my mother the canning enthusiast both endorse the contents of this message. It's not as if every improperly canned food will automatically kill its consumer, but botulism is nasty, nasty stuff.

 

[pernox]

or you could always brew a beer and save some of the runnings for yeast starters. boil it, cool it and refrigerate it in a sanitized container or freeze

This.

Increase your batch size by a half gallon or whatever you need, then you will have a starter wort ready for your next brew day.

 

[jldc]

Not being an expert, it was also my impression that wort needed to be pressure canned prior to long term storage. Freezing would probably work for a few months, and refrigeration for a week or two.

I routinely can wort for starters. I try to make it pretty concentrated (1.070 or so) so I can use smaller mason jars/more per batch.

When I make the starter I put a pint of water in my starter flask, boil to sterilize, cool and add the canned wort. Pitch and go.

I don't particularly do it to save money. I do it because I want to keep complete control of my beer. Well, and because if I wanted to do it the easy way, I'd just go buy some beer.

L

 

[pernox]

Not being an expert, it was also my impression that wort needed to be pressure canned prior to long term storage. Freezing would probably work for a few months, and refrigeration for a week or two.

I routinely can wort for starters. I try to make it pretty concentrated (1.070 or so) so I can use smaller mason jars/more per batch.

When I make the starter I put a pint of water in my starter flask, boil to sterilize, cool and add the canned wort. Pitch and go.

I don't particularly do it to save money. I do it because I want to keep complete control of my beer. Well, and because if I wanted to do it the easy way, I'd just go buy some beer.

L

That's a great idea to save space. So a pint of water and a pint of 1.070 wort gets you to what, 1.035?

 

[bdjohns1]

Pressure cooking is analogous to autoclaving and when performed correctly renders food sterile. However, some foods are notoriously difficult to sterilize with home canning equipment, so expert recommendations should be followed for home processing to avoid food poisoning.

Correct. However, at some point, you get into diminishing returns.

In my day job, I'm a manufacturing engineer for a big food company. On one project I worked on, I was dealing with the processes for retort sterilization of low-acid products (in this case, the milk discs that are part of the Tassimo coffee/tea system). A retort is basically a pressure cooker.

Knowing that you've rendered something sterile requires a couple of things - knowing how effectively heat penetrates your product (ie, know where the cold spot in your container is and measure it), and how much thermal treatment a product sees (we use a quantity called F0, which is based on the fact that the sterilization effect is exponential with respect to temperature.

Even then, we only consider products "commercially sterile" - that just means that there's been a certain order of magnitude reduction in the population of pathogenic organisms/spores. Typically, we're talking about a 5-9 log reduction of pathogens. So, if you had a flask full of C. botulinum with a population of 1 billion cells and commercially sterilized it, there could still be viable spores.

Sterilization relies on a sanitary process before-hand to reduce the risk of growth in a medium before it's sterilized.

 

[Hermit]

Nope, no DME on hand. I used some old LME on the last starter I made and dumped the whole 2000 ml starter into a 10 gallon batch, should have decanted. The final product had a twang to it, like burnt LME.

This time just want to make a starter out of fresh grain.

Hard to get an answer when people insist you use an alternative method. Boiling for one hour is used to drive off compounds we don't want in our beer. DMS? Don't remember but if you are going to pitch the starter, I'd say boil it for the one hour. If you boil too much off just add some water back for at least the last 10 minutes.

 

[Hermit]

Foods that are highly acidic or that have large amounts of added sugar are included in this group.
Adam

Wort would be somewhat acidic and high sugar, but I wouldn't recommend water bath unless I KNEW that testing had been done on the medium. A later post points to proper sanitation prior to sterilization so using these techniques might help here. At minimum if I were going to do this I'd take the precaution of doing a healthy boil of the starter prior to using it.

 

[bdjohns1]

Wort would be somewhat acidic and high sugar, but I wouldn't recommend water bath unless I KNEW that testing had been done on the medium. A later post points to proper sanitation prior to sterilization so using these techniques might help here. At minimum if I were going to do this I'd take the precaution of doing a healthy boil of the starter prior to using it.

Not enough acidity or sugar to get into the high-acid or low water activity categories in wort. pH generally needs to be <4. Don't remember the water-activity requirements off the top of my head, but I imagine you'd have to get up into the >1.1 SG range to even think about enough sugars.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Wow, this thread blew up over night. Dan, I looked up your cooker. I couldn't find "vagor" but I found "Fagor". Typo perharps? Anyway, if it is a Fagor it looks like your model is not meant to can with, just cook. Here is a link to the product manual page for Fagor.

http://www.fagoramerica.com/my_fagor/technical_information

Find your model and download the insturctions and read them. If you can't use it to can, just do as recommended previously and freeze the wort. Boil it before you make a starter with it. Just make sure to leave some headspace in your freezer jars to allow for expansion. If you do end up canning, please pressure can at 15 psi for 15 minutes. Water bathing is not a good idea for wort. This comes up once in a while and I don't know why people even debate it. Might you get away with a water batch, perhaps, but why take that chance. If you do it right the first time, when you pop the top a couple years later you are guranteed to have fresh, sterile wort as long the seal is still good.

 

[jldc]

That's a great idea to save space. So a pint of water and a pint of 1.070 wort gets you to what, 1.035?

Pretty much. Distilled water is 1.000. Drinking/tap water may be slightly higer but you're about right.

L

 

[Dan]

How did this work? I would be shocked if it didn't blow right by mash temp (even on low) too fast to get effective conversion.

Adam

Did I mention my thermometer was also broke? ha ha. So not sure what temp it mashed at but did leave it on the warm setting overnight. This morning I turned off the crockpot let it cool a bit sampled a taste, sweet and tastes like wort. The gravity reading was taken with a refractometer and it came out to be 1.045. I want it lower than that so am boiling some water and will add that to the wort. I think I might boil the wort again anyway because as somebody mentioned earlier no boil will render more trub.

This is kind of a fun experiment for me, I have maybe a dollar worth of grain invested and really nothing to lose.

 

[Dan]

Wow, this thread blew up over night. Dan, I looked up your cooker. I couldn't find "vagor" but I found "Fagor". Typo perharps? Anyway, if it is a Fagor it looks like your model is not meant to can with, just cook. Here is a link to the product manual page for Fagor.

http://www.fagoramerica.com/my_fagor/technical_information

Find your model and download the insturctions and read them. If you can't use it to can, just do as recommended previously and freeze the wort. Boil it before you make a starter with it. Just make sure to leave some headspace in your freezer jars to allow for expansion. If you do end up canning, please pressure can at 15 psi for 15 minutes. Water bathing is not a good idea for wort. This comes up once in a while and I don't know why people even debate it. Might you get away with a water batch, perhaps, but why take that chance. If you do it right the first time, when you pop the top a couple years later you are guranteed to have fresh, sterile wort as long the seal is still good.

Haha, yes it did BBL. And yes your assumption was correct I made a typo it is Fagor. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out in a minute. I think I'm just going to freeze it. There have been some great posts on this thread.!

 

[mthompson]

My process is pretty simple and doesn't really take extra time because I do most of it while brewing. On brewdays, I add a gallon or two to the grains after they are sparged. Three of us usually all brew together, so I do the same with their grains as well. I run off all the wort into a wide canning pot, which has a higher boil off rate because of the surface area.

I measure the starting gravity, and calculate how much I need to boil off to get to 1.020 and then further to 1.040. Once its at 1.020, I fill seven pint jars and continue boiling the rest. Once that gets to 1.040, I fill quart jars until it's gone. I can stack 7 quarts and 7 pints in my pressure canner, and I process for 45 minutes at 15psi and let it cool over night on the stove.

I store the jars on a shelf in the basement and use the 1.020 wort for starters from yeast bank or bottle harvesting, then step up to 1.040 as needed to get the yeast volumes required. No boiling or cooling before pitching, just open a jar, pour it into the flask and pitch.... And they are essentially free, except for the propane.

 

[Droot]

I add extra grain and save a few quarts of wort. Can for future use.

I remember reading this about canning in the Home Brew Digest a LONG time ago.
Wort is not low acid like tomatoes.

David

 

[BrewerJack]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but this is how I usually do my starters (I always use them).

I use DME but the same works for AB. So I make about a gallon of wort with the DME. I use some of it to make a starter for my next brew and store the rest away in capped beer bottles in the fridge.

I mean cool it down, rack off what you need now, and bottle the rest just as you would if you were bottling brew. Cap em, toss em in the fridge, and their ready to rock.

Just let warm to pitching temp and go. Its been pretty successful for me.

 

[Dan]

My process is pretty simple and doesn't really take extra time because I do most of it while brewing. On brewdays, I add a gallon or two to the grains after they are sparged. Three of us usually all brew together, so I do the same with their grains as well. I run off all the wort into a wide canning pot, which has a higher boil off rate because of the surface area.

I measure the starting gravity, and calculate how much I need to boil off to get to 1.020 and then further to 1.040. Once its at 1.020, I fill seven pint jars and continue boiling the rest. Once that gets to 1.040, I fill quart jars until it's gone. I can stack 7 quarts and 7 pints in my pressure canner, and I process for 45 minutes at 15psi and let it cool over night on the stove.

I store the jars on a shelf in the basement and use the 1.020 wort for starters from yeast bank or bottle harvesting, then step up to 1.040 as needed to get the yeast volumes required. No boiling or cooling before pitching, just open a jar, pour it into the flask and pitch.... And they are essentially free, except for the propane.

I think my next beer making investment will be a canner. I'm not tight on money but if a few dollars spent will save me money over a lifetime of brewing, I can see a canner being money well invested.

 

[mthompson]

I think my next beer making investment will be a canner. I'm not tight on money but if a few dollars spent will save me money over a lifetime of brewing, I can see a canner being money well invested.

I use my pressure canner for brewing stuff all the time.... Sterilize a lot of stuff and it's ready to use when you need it; Flasks w/stir bar, jars of distilled water for yeast washing, vials with glycerin solution for yeast bank, wort. Just put tinfoil over the flasks and water jars, fill the canner with a bunch of stuff and store on a shelf when cool. No need to rinse with sanitizer before using, and it is sterile (which is necessary with the yeast stuff in my opinion).

I have the 23qt presto, which runs under $100. I use it for food storage as well.... I think everyone should have one.

 

[Dan]

Thanks MT, I'm going to check them out online right now.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

I have the 23qt presto, which runs under $100. I use it for food storage as well.... I think everyone should have one.

I have a presto too, I love it. Canning with a gauge is a huge improvement over the jiggler. When I do large runs I use my old jigglers too, and I always hate it now that I've used one with a gauge.

 

[mthompson]

I have a presto too, I love it. Canning with a gauge is a huge improvement over the jiggler. When I do large runs I use my old jigglers too, and I always hate it now that I've used one with a gauge.

I use the 3-piece weight regulator. My gauge reads a range of 13-15 psi when I use the same 15 psi weight on different days. Always has, so I don't trust it. The weights are precision-milled to be very accurate. It's nice to 'see' what's going on inside with the gauge though. The gauge is also supposed to be checked annually for accuracy if you rely on one.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

I use the 3-piece weight regulator. My gauge reads a range of 13-15 psi when I use the same 15 psi weight on different days. Always has, so I don't trust it. The weights are precision-milled to be very accurate. It's nice to 'see' what's going on inside with the gauge though. The gauge is also supposed to be checked annually for accuracy if you rely on one.

The one I have has a "jiggler" as well as a gauge. The jiggler part lets off excess pressure and the gauge tells you what pressure you're at. The nice thing is, the jiggler does not actually jiggle until you reach 15 psi, so you have two indicators. When you run a batch at 5 or 10, it just vents steam. I also always run mine one or two psi over just to be sure.

 

[Dan]

I found a 23qt presto canner/pressure cooker for 99 dollars and free shipping. Seems like a decent price. What do you think?

 

[mthompson]

I found a 23qt presto canner/pressure cooker for 99 dollars and free shipping. Seems like a decent price. What do you think?

I bet you can find a better deal than that.... A quick search found this

If you might can foods, you should also get the 3-piece regulator.