How do I ferment sugar water ?

[LBussy]

The fermentation smells a lot more nasty than a nice beer fermentation

If your fermentation smells, it means the yeast is not happy.

about two teaspoons of calcium carbonate to the 2 gal wash

I've been using potassium carbonate, it seems to impart much less of a flavor.

add a balanced yeast nutrient

It matters which one you use. I have always used a modified TOSNA + GoFerm to rehydrate my yeast when fermenting challenging liquids. Since trying a couple of BOMM batches, and because honey is a lot like plain sugar + water (if you make the sugar invert,) I'd recommend the OP have a look at that protocol along-side TOSNA.

The best solution will depend on what the end use is (Setlzer is a way different application than a sugar wash for distillation.)

 

[brewman !]

I did a few 2 gal sugar washes this year as part of an experiment to make my own hand sanitizer. I didn't use any grain or tomato paste and was able to ferment to completion in 10 days. @ ~13%.

Interesting What yeast did you use ?

The fermentation smells a lot more nasty than a nice beer fermentation, so pick a suitable place or the SWAMBO may not be very happy.

Yeah, why is that ?

Many sugar washes, including one of mine, experience a drastic pH crash (< 3) around the third day that effectively stops or slows the fermentation to a crawl. The solution to this problem was to add about two teaspoons of calcium carbonate to the 2 gal wash. Some folks use oyster shell for this. While the chalk is largely insoluble at the start, as the CO2 builds up from fermentation, the chalk will dissolve and keep the pH at a steady 4 until the last couple of days where it dropped to 3.5. I used pH strips like the kind for Kombucha to measure this.

My fermentation is bubbling along nicely. I had the same thing happen, though fermentation seemed vigorous. pH was 3 ish the other day. I added some sodium carbonate (baking soda). Just checked and it was 3.1. I added more baking soda. I also added more pancake mix !

I'm feeding it more sugar every time the gravity drops below 1.030. I'm seeing how high I can take it.

So use a sugar wash calculator for grams of sugar to water, add a balanced yeast nutrient ( I used Fermax, DAP is not that good by itself) and use some food grade chalk and it should work well for you.

I'll use the food grade chalk next time. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Birrofilo]

What do I need to ferment a 1.060 water and sugar mix ? Other than yeast, water and sugar...

You need a buffering agent, which normally means calcium carbonate. I have just had a stuck fermentation on a sugar wash (birdwatcher's) with a 3,21 pH (which is a pit below normal) and it woke up dramatically after adding 4 eggshells (without the pellicle).

I am soon buying some calcium carbonate when I find it, but substitutes such as eggshells work and are free after you ate your fried eggs. Alternatively oyster shells or oyster shells fragments or bird egg fragments can be found at certain sellers of chicken food.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I've used this for seltzers. Works like a champ. Sugar, lime, and water. Couldn't be easier.

 

[LBussy]

Again, it depends whether this is for a wash or for a base. Potassium Carbonate is a better choice for a buffer for a drink base.

 

[moorejl57]

Interesting What yeast did you use ?



Yeah, why is that ?



My fermentation is bubbling along nicely. I had the same thing happen, though fermentation seemed vigorous. pH was 3 ish the other day. I added some sodium carbonate (baking soda). Just checked and it was 3.1. I added more baking soda. I also added more pancake mix !

I'm feeding it more sugar every time the gravity drops below 1.030. I'm seeing how high I can take it.



I'll use the food grade chalk next time. Thanks for the tip.

i used DADY from RedStar which starts fast, ferments out dry, is fairly neutral and very cheap.

The smell is a bit sulfery, but if you control the temp, it is greatly reduced. I also may have slightly under dosed the yeast nutrient. I didn't care since I wasn't going to drink the alcohol produced, just wanted to make some some sanitizer.

 

[Birrofilo]

Again, it depends whether this is for a wash or for a base. Potassium Carbonate is a better choice for a buffer for a drink base.

I am interested. I don't know what you mean for "a wash or a base". I am making sugar washes to arrive to a neutral alcohol base, which I will use for mistrà, bitter, sambuca, gin etc.

Please elaborate. Specifically, what advantages would Potassium Carbonate have over Calcium Carbonate?

 

[LBussy]

I am interested. I don't know what you mean for "a wash or a base". I am making sugar washes to arrive to a neutral alcohol base, which I will use for mistrà, bitter, sambuca, gin etc.

A wash is what you are describing. A base would be someone making hard Selzer or something of the like, where the fermented beverage would be cleared and consumed.

Please elaborate. Specifically, what advantages would Potassium Carbonate have over Calcium Carbonate?

Calcium carbonate has a higher impact on taste, takes longer to clear, and will preferentially neutralize tartaric acid which may not be desirable in something that is to be consumed directly. If the fermented liquid is to be distilled, these are not as much a concern.

 

[brewman !]

Great content, people. Thanks for all the replies.

FWIW, the Fast Fermenting Vodka Hand Sanitizer recipe adds wheat bran to the wash. Mine would not ferment, no way, no how, until I added some wheat product to it.

Really interesting to hear about correcting the pH with eggshells and various carbonates.

 

[LBussy]

Agree, it's very interesting to consider different ways to approach it that are more frugal than one would need to consider for a direct-consumed beer.

 

[brewman !]

I don't want to knock the distilling community but the brewing community is a lot more scientific about the fermentation process. It has to be, because beer is a fermented beverage whereas distilling removes a lot of flavor from a fermented mash.

 

[LBussy]

True, yet a bottle of good bourbon goes for $500+.

 

[Stavrose]

What do I need to ferment a 1.060 water and sugar mix ? Other than yeast, water and sugar...

I tried making sugar wash from 1.40 until 1.080. Every time I start doing sugar wash. the fermentation stops working at 1.020 or something. I bought yeast nutrient and it worked.

 

[Birrofilo]

Birdwatcher's Sugar Wash works but it can get stuck, it also happened to me. Besides the tomato paste (or tomato puree) as a nutrient, I now consider mandatory to add calcium carbonate as a buffer. pH can go very low and the fermentation can remain stuck, especially considering that the recipe also contains lemon juice which can aggravate the pH problems.

Another recipe which I will soon try is Shady's Sugar Shine, from the same site.

No tomato paste, no lemon. It uses diammonium phosphate (DAP), a multivitaminic pill (not containing fish oil - the important ones are mostly vitamins of the B complex so one can use a vitamin B pill), and killed yeast as a nutrient, and in certain versions Epsom salts.

"Killed yeast" means yeast from a cake which you collect from under the fermentor, you boil some water, flameout and throw the yeast into the boiling water. The yeast will die and the yeast in your fermentation will use that as a nutrient.

Finally, you can search for Ted's Fast Fermenting Vodka, which uses wheat bran, a multivitaminic pill (not derived from fish oil), Epsom salt, DAP and an acid to reach pH 5.

 

[bracconiere]

damn, forgot about this one...glad the whole wheat got it going!

i wouldn't go too far with multi vite's......the whole wheat is what the yeast need, i tried adding multi-vitamins to sugar washes, no luck....

 

[Toxxyc]

Turns out yeast need the nutrients provided by a grain. Who woulda thunk ? /s

Not really. Yeast doesn't NEED grain. Grain just happens to have what they need.

When you're done with this wash, save the yeast cake and freeze it in 750ml bottles or mason jars. When you start a new wash, boil up the contents of the jar to kill everything in there and use it as the base for your next wash. The dead crap in there is PERFECT nutrients for yeast. I do that with my sugar washes and they ferment great.

 

[bracconiere]

Not really. Yeast doesn't NEED grain. Grain just happens to have what they need.

When you're done with this wash, save the yeast cake and freeze it in 750ml bottles or mason jars. When you start a new wash, boil up the contents of the jar to kill everything in there and use it as the base for your next wash. The dead crap in there is PERFECT nutrients for yeast. I do that with my sugar washes and they ferment great.

that would be creepy, lol

 

[brewman !]

True, yet a bottle of good bourbon goes for $500+.

Believe me, there is a lot that goes into a good bourbon mash.

Mashes don't have to be as clean as beers because you leave 80% of everything, including most bad flavors, in the boiler. Nevertheless, bourbon mashes are finely tailored to get the exact flavor the distiller wants in the spirit.

 

[day_trippr]

I dunno...I'm no spirits connoisseur but from extensive [distillery tour] experience, regardless of the style, it seems nearly all of the actual character that ends up in a bottle was acquired post-distillation. And that's the real art...

Cheers!

 

[LBussy]

I dunno...I'm no spirits connoisseur but from extensive [distillery tour] experience, regardless of the style, it seems nearly all of the actual character that ends up in a bottle was acquired post-distillation. And that's the real art...

If you spend time exploring the varieties within a class of spirit, you really begin to get the differences and many come from the wash. For instance, with just a tiny bit of practice (and we know how hard THAT is), you can easily discern differences in the mash bill of a Bourbon for instance. High corn carries over as sweet, wheated has a distinctive grainy flavor, etc. Maybe these are nuances but it's something I've been focusing on recently.

 

[Birrofilo]

If you spend time exploring the varieties within a class of spirit, you really begin to get the differences and many come from the wash. For instance, with just a tiny bit of practice (and we know how hard THAT is), you can easily discern differences in the mash bill of a Bourbon for instance. High corn carries over as sweet, wheated has a distinctive grainy flavor, etc. Maybe these are nuances but it's something I've been focusing on recently.

This is very interesting. I came to the partial - and open to revision - conclusion that what gives the "flair" of corn, what, oats and, on a different table, the "sugary" taste of sugar wash, is the water component of the ferment which survives the distillation.

Human taste buds are miraculously selective and even 1% or 2% of the final spirit which is the original ferment water (in the case of a neutral, that is. In the case of a whisky or a fruit distillate it is more) is easily perceived with its own taste. Very aromatic substances can be traces as a distinct sample in a three-sample blind test for quantities as low as 1 part per billion actually.

Some numbers:

We ferment a wash which has 9% alcohol. 91% is "original wash water".
We distill it once: we have a wash which is 38% alcohol, and yet, 62% of that wash is "original wash water".
Let's say we dilute that to 20% with tap water and redistill: More or less, after dilution we have 30% of "original wash water" and around 30% of the brew is tap water but 30% of the brew is the "original wash water". Half of the "water" actually comes not from the tap, but from the fermenter.
When we collect let's say some 60% ABV second-round distilled product, 40% of that is water, and of this water, half of it, or 20%, still is "original wash water".
We dilute that again to ABV 20%, increasing its volume to three times the original. After dilution, we go from 40% water to 80% water. Of this water, the "original wash water" goes from around 50% to 13%.
We distill that again to a final product which is 60% ABV that goes to the barrel.
40% of this final product going to the barrel is water. Of this water, 13% still is "original wash water", therefore we still have 5,2% of the final product in the barrel which is original water.
When this 60% product is diluted with distilled water to 40% for final consumption, the "original wash water" goes somewhat below 5,2% but to around 3%.

What I mean is that if you could extract all alcohols from any wash miraculously, and add distilled water, and the last 3% of "original wash water", that 3% is enough to tell you that the distillate came from apricots, pears, apples, oats, barley, corn etc. It's not the taste of the alcohols, but the taste of the water which remains in the product coming straight from the original ferment.

3% water which is "tea" of an ingredient is IMHO clearly perceivable in a distillate.

It is probably for this reason that fruit distillates are often distilled only once (no stripping run and then spirit run). The reason why our forefathers preferred to collect the final product immediately (maybe making tighter cuts, or "aging" the product for more than 6 months to get rid of the nasty heads) is that they wanted to preserve the perfume of grapes, apple, aprcots, pears, plums in the original fermentation. They wanted to avoid the dilutions with spring water.

 

[LBussy]

Seems reasonable - I mean you mention "sugary" taste: A rum has a very distinctive flavor even if it's aged in the same manner. The difference is sugar from grain vs sugar from sugar cane. If you've seen a dunder pit (or smelled one) you'll be amazed anything palatable comes from it.

There have to be volatile aromatics that make up the flavor profiles though. I'm not sure the wash water would give the same flavor, since in theory that would have a lesser percentage of that which makes up the distinct flavors since they are so volatile. You would lose a similar percentage of those flavors from the wash as you do the alcohol during the distillation process.

Maybe?

It's an interesting subject. Let's talk about it over a drink!

 

[Birrofilo]

I am new to distillation and I am trying to obtain good neutral. I always have a "rum" undertone from my sucrose washes. Good or very good once you put herbs in it, but "rumy" when I taste it alone. I will next strip twice before doing the spirit run with the packed column. I think this is the due to the few % points of the original ferment water and which tastes "sugar".


Instead of stripping 4 washes separately and then doing a spirit run with the column, I will strip the 4 washes separately, then put all together, dilute with water up to the brim so to speak, and strip again, and then dilute (again up to the brim) and use the column. For a neutral, I want to insert as much tap water as I can in the pot.

 

[moorejl57]

I am new to distillation and I am trying to obtain good neutral. I always have a "rum" undertone from my sucrose washes. Good or very good once you put herbs in it, but "rumy" when I taste it alone. I will next strip twice before doing the spirit run with the packed column. I think this is the due to the few % points of the original ferment water and which tastes "sugar".


Instead of stripping 4 washes separately and then doing a spirit run with the column, I will strip the 4 washes separately, then put all together, dilute with water up to the brim so to speak, and strip again, and then dilute (again up to the brim) and use the column. For a neutral, I want to insert as much tap water as I can in the pot.

You might want to use a barley mash for your wash. Sugar washes are cheap but not very good tasting. You can as you mentioned do multiple strip and dilute back runs to clean out the low wines before doing the final high proof spirit run. You want to hit around 95% to get a clean vodka.

 

[Birrofilo]

You might want to use a barley mash for your wash. Sugar washes are cheap but not very good tasting. You can as you mentioned do multiple strip and dilute back runs to clean out the low wines before doing the final high proof spirit run. You want to hit around 95% to get a clean vodka.

But that's the point: I want them cheap and good-tasting!

I did hit 95-96% with my column and I attribute the "rum" taste to that 5% of non-alcohol content.

In my first and so far only spirit run, I did not dilute. I stripped 4 washes, and then I put the 4 washes in my kettle and made a spirit run with that. Which means that the 5% which wasn't alcohol, was original sugar wash water, and it tasted OK but with a hint like rum, which is OK in a rum but not in a neutral.

Now I am going to add water water water water. Actually for my next stripping run instead of stripping the ferment I will dilute also that with water, which will make a wash around 6% and a longer stripping run, but who cares, I go for quality which in this case means neutrality.

 

[moorejl57]

But that's the point: I want them cheap and good-tasting!

I did hit 95-96% with my column and I attribute the "rum" taste to that 5% of non-alcohol content.

In my first and so far only spirit run, I did not dilute. I stripped 4 washes, and then I put the 4 washes in my kettle and made a spirit run with that. Which means that the 5% which wasn't alcohol, was original sugar wash water, and it tasted OK but with a hint like rum, which is OK in a rum but not in a neutral.

Now I am going to add water water water water. Actually for my next stripping run instead of stripping the ferment I will dilute also that with water, which will make a wash around 6% and a longer stripping run, but who cares, I go for quality which in this case means neutrality.

So what I have done with a sugar wash is:
1. Do a normal set of stripping runs to get about a 35% low wine (distill off 1/3 by volume)
2. Dilute all the low wine back to 7% with water
3. Do another set of stripping runs (1/3 volume) and taste the low wine, if still rum like repeat above
4. After happy with smell/taste of low wine, do spirit run

The main issue is you lose some alcohol with each stripping run since you don't get all of it out. So your cost may not be much better than starting with a better wash. Makes for a good experiment none the less.

 

[Birrofilo]

So what I have done with a sugar wash is:
1. Do a normal set of stripping runs to get about a 35% low wine (distill off 1/3 by volume)
2. Dilute all the low wine back to 7% with water
3. Do another set of stripping runs (1/3 volume) and taste the low wine, if still rum like repeat above
4. After happy with smell/taste of low wine, do spirit run

The main issue is you lose some alcohol with each stripping run since you don't get all of it out. So your cost may not be much better than starting with a better wash. Makes for a good experiment none the less.

Yes that's my official strategy now: two stripping runs with dilution, and a spirit run with dilution.

A Barley wash for neutral seems to me a bit of a blasphemy: barley is for beer or whisky

 

[Bombo80]

Not sure where I read about it, but I purchased a White Labs product called SeltzerMax.
It looks like it has all the nutritional requirements for a sugar wash, for making hard seltzer.

This is from their website ....

" This blend of nutrients has been specifically designed to create a clean, dry, and clear hard seltzer. SeltzerMax™ has been optimized to provide essential nitrogen, vitamins, and minerals for yeast health resulting in a fast and complete hard seltzer fermentation. This product does contain diammonium phosphate (DAP) and has been formulated to be balanced with organic sources of nitrogen. "

It seems a bit spendy when buying the individual packs for a single 5 gallon batch. Similar to the popper seltzer product from Omega. I decided to make the investment and bought a 2K container. It breaks down to about $1.50 per 5 gallon batch of seltzer. Now i have enough for 50 batches.
Looking forward to brewing a batch very soon. I will let everyone know how it goes.