HOW big of a starter??? REALLY??!!

[theDeutscher]

Alright. I like to think that I've got a pretty decent grasp on yeast until something like this gets me confused/frustrated. I've got a couple lagers under my belt and realize the importance of a huge pitch. I already know that it takes a ton of yeast for these babies. On that note, I ordered some ingredients last week from Brewmasters Warehouse and received a vial of WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager. Now, in the past, my lager vials were pretty fresh and I was able to get away with brewing up about a 1.5 gallon starter and pitching the slurry. However, on this vial, the best buy date was 6/16/12... expires two weeks after I received it. Using the infamous Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator, with 1 vial, I would have to make.... well, I really can't make a big enough pitch with one vial.... I would basically have to make a 5-6 gallon starter with 1 vial. My next closest bet would be to buy 2 vials and make a 3 gallon starter... or how about 4 vials with a 1.5 gallon starter. This is with occasional stirring/shaking, by the way. Even with a stir plate, it doesn't really change much with the amount of vial, just a slightly smaller starter wort. I guess my question is - Has anyone really been able to tell a difference in yeast performance when using yeast that was produced more recently opposed to closer to the expiration date. I'd like to think that if there's a best buy date, you should be getting the same product whether it's right out of the lab or close to expiring. Why should I have to buy 2-4 vials for the same price as a fresh vial that requires a smaller starter without the extra vials???

 

[Wino24]

Did you try yeastcalc.com? I like that better than Mr.Malty, easier for my simple brain to understand. I like the way it shows how much yeast you'll have after a couple of step ups. By the way...I've used WLP802 ..love it!

 

[theDeutscher]

Did you try yeastcalc.com?

Thanks for that link. According to their calculator, it looks like I can do a 2 liter starter, cool and decant, and then do a gallon starter and hit my rate... I believe. I put 2/16/12 in for the date for a 1.050 beer. Did 2 steps with intermittent shaking. Did I do that right? What's it mean by the number of doublings?

P.S. I really like the DME calculator.

 

[g-star]

If you step up once and use a stir plate, you should be able to get away with starters that are < 2L each time, unless you are using VERY old yeast or making a 1.075+ dopplebock.

 

[petep1980]

Let me try to understand this. You're being told to make a 5 gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch of beer? This is a bit of a paradox. That's like telling someone who wants to run a marathon, the first thing they need to do is run a marathon.

I have my suspicions about "viable yeast counts". Get a stir plate and go with 2L and it'll probably ferment.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Let me try to understand this. You're being told to make a 5 gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch of beer? This is a bit of a paradox. That's like telling someone who wants to run a marathon, the first thing they need to do is run a marathon.

This is the main reason why I don't use mrmalty. I have not found it to be particularly helpful. IME, Yeastcalc is much more useful.

 

[bknifefight]

Get a stir plate and go with 2L and it'll probably ferment.

Having something just "probably ferment" is a good way to have a lager end up tasting like sh*t lol

 

[theDeutscher]

By the way...I've used WLP802 ..love it!

I hope it works out like I'm intending. I'm doing a clone of a Polish beer called Zywiec. Looks like WLP802 is a strong attenuator and I'm aiming to get somewhere between 78-84% attenuation for that dry, crisp finish.

Let me try to understand this. You're being told to make a 5 gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch of beer?

Usually when I do lagers, I'll use WLP830 on an ale first at around 60-65 degrees since that yeast is still fairly clean and lager-like at those temps.. and then I rack my lager onto that cake. But with this Czech yeast, I have no idea if it's going to be throwing off some crazy stuff at those temps so I'm not going to chance it.

 

[petep1980]

Having something just "probably ferment" is a good way to have a lager end up tasting like sh*t lol

Would you prefer the term "should ferment"?

Without a degree in micro-biology or being a certified brew master that's the best I can do.

 

[bknifefight]

Would you prefer the term "should ferment"?

Without a degree in micro-biology or being a certified brew master that's the best I can do.

My point is that underpitching a lager is a bad idea. Suggesting just a 2 liter starter, when it's calling for gallons is bad advice.

 

[osagedr]

A stirplate is a really good investment. Stepping up using yeastcalc.com is smart as well.

Underpitching a lager is a surefire way to get a disaster.

The best option is to plan your lager brewing schedule to go back-to-back as many times as is feasible for you. That way, after the first batch you can repitch slurry and be certain to pitch enough cells of very healthy, active yeast.

A last option is to use dry yeast. Again, you can re-pitch slurry after the first batch. I have won quite a few medals in good competitions this year for my lagers, including two going to the second round of the NHC, and every single one started with dry yeast (mostly W-34/70 but also S-23 and even S-189). Some were slurry repitches, but the point is using liquid is not the be-all and end-all if you don't want to do huge starters.

 

[Golddiggie]

Did you try yeastcalc.com? I like that better than Mr.Malty, easier for my simple brain to understand. I like the way it shows how much yeast you'll have after a couple of step ups. By the way...I've used WLP802 ..love it!

Nice tool (the site ya nit)...

Stepping a starter is one area where Mr. Malty and BeerSmith fall short. At least I now know where to look for such calculations.

 

[theDeutscher]

Get a stir plate and go with 2L and it'll probably ferment.

A stirplate is a really good investment.

I'm seriously going to have to build a brew shed for all the equipment I'm piling up. The kitchen/spare bedroom/garage just isn't cutting it now. Trust me - the stir plate is #1 on my list of things to get. Look what my music room has already turned into...

 

[arnoldk2]

Let me try to understand this. You're being told to make a 5 gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch of beer? This is a bit of a paradox. That's like telling someone who wants to run a marathon, the first thing they need to do is run a marathon.

I have my suspicions about "viable yeast counts". Get a stir plate and go with 2L and it'll probably ferment.

For the beer you are making with an older vial of yeast Mr. Malty is saying you need 5 gallons of wort to produce the amount of yeast required to adequately ferment your beer. It doesn't say pour the entire 5 gallons into your beer. Normally you would cold crash your starter so all the yeast settles out and then decant the liquid saving the yeast at the bottom. Swirl a little bit of the spent liquid to get the yeast in suspension and then pitch that. Jamil is the guy who came up with Mr. Malty. That guy knows what he is talking about. Not sure who came up with the other website. Im going to stick with listening to the guy who has had more award winning beers when it comes to yeast pitching.

 

[osagedr]

Your pedals, instrument cases and speakers are in the way. Get rid of them. Need...more...room...for...beer!

 

[theDeutscher]

I just finished firing up the starter for this bad boy and decided to give YeastCalc a whirl to see what happens. I decided to go with a 3-step instead of 2 because I was cutting it close on the cell count using 2 steps. I did a 1/2 liter tonight, going to add 1.5 liters to that later, cool, decant, and then do a whole gallon. Should end up with 467 cells... and I basically just posted those numbers so I don't forget what to do.

Going back to the YeastCalc vs. Mr. Malty debate, when I put 1 step into YeastCalc, it does basically come out to the same numbers as Mr. Malty. I have the Mr. Malty app, too, so hopefully Jamil will make an update with steps soon, assuming he is basing his calculator on 1 step. I do agree with arnold that Jamil knows a ton about yeast. I mean, he wrote a book with Chris White from White Labs about it. The thing that gets me is that I've heard Chris say that all their vials were made to be directly pitch-able into most normal gravity beers. The rest of the homebrew world disagrees.

One last thing and a little off topic - This is my first time using Munton's DME instead of Briess and the stuff just seemed to be easier to work with. It mixed in with the water better, didn't foam as much, and it actually smelled like my wort when I'm doing all-grain. Whenever I use Briess DME, I smell it while it's boiling and it just has that musty smell. I bought the Munton's from my LHBS and it's produced in my state so maybe it's just fresher, I dunno. Any experiences??

 

[LLBeanJ]

Jamil is the guy who came up with Mr. Malty. That guy knows what he is talking about. Not sure who came up with the other website. Im going to stick with listening to the guy who has had more award winning beers when it comes to yeast pitching.

No argument about Jamil. He knows yeast.

However, the yeastcalc calculations are reliable. This is the link to the growth charts page on yeastcalc.com. There, the author, Dustin Sullivan (an HBT member), describes and shows with charts how he plotted data using inoculation rates and volumes from Chris White's published growth rate experiments. Then he ran the same numbers through Wyeast's calculator, as well as Mr.Malty. Finally, he plugged the same data into his yeastcalc calculator.

The result: virtually identical growth curves across the board. Regarding growth count, they were all pretty close, but yeastcalc's counts were almost itentical to White Labs', while Wyeast's and Mr.Malty's were a bit higher. And as far as count goes, both White Labs and yeastcalc are more conservative in cell count estimation than the other two calculators.

 

[jwalker1140]

Using yeastcalc, is there a rule of thumb when it comes to determining each size of a multi-step starter? Like, should the volume of step 1 be the same as step 2 or should I adjust the volumes so the 'number of doublings' is the same for both steps?

 

[Sudstud]

I'm doing my first lager this weekend and finding this thread has made my day! Thanks for the Yeastcalc link, I've been using Mr Malty but didn't like the lack of detail for stepping up.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Using yeastcalc, is there a rule of thumb when it comes to determining each size of a multi-step starter? Like, should the volume of step 1 be the same as step 2 or should I adjust the volumes so the 'number of doublings' is the same for both steps?

I try to plan the steps in such a way as to keep the inoculation rates as low as possible, while still getting my desired final count in the least amount of steps. I don't get too hung up on it, though.

 

[jwalker1140]

I try to plan the steps in such a way as to keep the inoculation rates as low as possible, while still getting my desired final count in the least amount of steps. I don't get too hung up on it, though.

Understood, and thanks. But I guess what I don't understand is if I'm shooting for ~400 billion cells, is it better to start with a 1.2L starter (1.52 doublings) and step up with another 1.2L starter (0.65 doublings) or should I start with a 0.75L starter and step to a 1.55L starter, both of which have about 1.05 doublings?

Equal volume or equal doublings?

Or is none of this worth worrying about as long as I reach my target count?

 

[SkipperNC]

The thing that gets me is that I've heard Chris say that all their vials were made to be directly pitch-able into most normal gravity beers. The rest of the homebrew world disagrees.

This has always bothered me too. As a recent homebrewer (less than a year,) I remember the first time I asked a friend about liquid yeast and he said, "no you can't just pitch the vial, that's not enough for a 5 gallon brew." I've made starters for every beer since, but still, if that's not enough, why are they even sold in that amount?

 

[theDeutscher]

Using yeastcalc, is there a rule of thumb when it comes to determining each size of a multi-step starter? Like, should the volume of step 1 be the same as step 2 or should I adjust the volumes so the 'number of doublings' is the same for both steps?

That's a good question and was wondering the same thing myself when I was planning my steps. From what I understand, a 1 liter starter from a vial will double the cell count that's in the packaged vial. Apparently, what I'm doing with my first step (1/2 liter) is just re-acclimating the yeast to fermenting wort. I'm not really going to get much yeast growth until I do at least a 1 liter (or bigger) step.

I try to plan the steps in such a way as to keep the inoculation rates as low as possible, while still getting my desired final count in the least amount of steps. I don't get too hung up on it, though.

I agree here, too. I've also heard that stepping up too many times can wear the yeast down... but like you said, I don't think it's that huge of a factor.

 

[g-star]

This has always bothered me too. As a recent homebrewer (less than a year,) I remember the first time I asked a friend about liquid yeast and he said, "no you can't just pitch the vial, that's not enough for a 5 gallon brew." I've made starters for every beer since, but still, if that's not enough, why are they even sold in that amount?

Economics probably the driving force. $15-$20 tubes of yeast would probably turn a lot of people off.

And CW is not lying. One tube will ferment most standard gravity beers; however, this is not optimal. If you want to minimize stress and make the best beers possible, starters are almost always a good idea, unless you are making something like a < 1.040 Mild.

 

[SkipperNC]

Economics probably the driving force. $15-$20 tubes of yeast would probably turn a lot of people off.

And CW is not lying. One tube will ferment most standard gravity beers; however, this is not optimal. If you want to minimize stress and make the best beers possible, starters are almost always a good idea, unless you are making something like a < 1.040 Mild.

You're probably right about the economics. Honestly speaking, if there were the same variety with dry yeast as there was with liquid, the cheaper version would win, every time.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Understood, and thanks. But I guess what I don't understand is if I'm shooting for ~400 billion cells, is it better to start with a 1.2L starter (1.52 doublings) and step up with another 1.2L starter (0.65 doublings) or should I start with a 0.75L starter and step to a 1.55L starter, both of which have about 1.05 doublings?

Equal volume or equal doublings?

Or is none of this worth worrying about as long as I reach my target count?

Based on info I've picked up here and there, the conventional wisdom seems to be that it's better to start with a smaller step and then double (give or take) the size for the next step. If you more or less try to stick to this rule, you should be fine. I typically make starters from yeast that is a few months old and somewhat low on initial count (40-70b cells), so I'll often do a .75-.80L first step, then follow up with a second that is anywhere from 1.0-1.5L to get me to my target cell count. I've had very good results doing it this way.

 

[rockfish42]

1L is the recommended minimum size initial starter coming from a reasonably fresh vial, you can actually make the yeast less viable by making too small of a starter. If you were starting from a slant it can be much lower of course.

 

[RiffMagnum]

I'm seriously going to have to build a brew shed for all the equipment I'm piling up. The kitchen/spare bedroom/garage just isn't cutting it now. Trust me - the stir plate is #1 on my list of things to get. Look what my music room has already turned into...

Fulltone fan here!!!

 

[jwalker1140]

Using yeastcalc, is there a rule of thumb when it comes to determining each size of a multi-step starter? Like, should the volume of step 1 be the same as step 2 or should I adjust the volumes so the 'number of doublings' is the same for both steps?

I wrote to the person who created the yeastcalc calculator and asked him this same question. Here's his response, in case anyone else was wondering:

"I prefer to focus more on the inoculation rate, try keeping the inoculation rate between 50 - 100 million cells/ml for each step. This will ensure maximal health and growth in relation to volume."