Hot Fermenting Questions, 90 deg ?

[WileECoyote]

Hello, I live in Arizona, it gets 125 deg during summer, in the house its 85 deg, ac running full blast, I have read all about using a fridge to, cool ferment in, but I haven't found out much about fermenting at 85 deg air temp other than do not do it. so my question is if I use a saison yeast that is suppose to be at 90 deg for fermentation will it produce ester alcohol, (is ester alcohol produced from fermenting over a certain temp or from over temping a yeast?) and will it have off flavors that I have read about or since it's made for 90 deg fermentation will it ferment clean ? and can I brew a Hefe type beer using saison yeast? or maybe a porter or stouts?
Thanks
WileECoyote
Cheers

 

[homebrewdad]

Saison yeast is proabbly your best bet if you can't get the temps down.

Note that your beers may have a bit of a different character with a different yeast - though you may end up with a great creation that way.

Incidentally, esters are flavors produced by yeast. Sometimes these are desired, soemtimes not, and different yeasts make different esters (sometimes at different temperature ranges ). Fusel alcohols are the "rocket fuel" flavors you get by high fermentation temps.

 

[Trail]

A Belgian saison yeast will ferment at 85-90, but it won't ferment "clean" - that's part of the saison style, and a product of the yeast's metabolic processes. You can brew a stout recipe with saison yeast, but you'll get a lot of saison flavors like bubblegum and barnyard funkiness in with your roast flavors.

If you want to brew most classic beer styles, you'll need to ferment in a mini-fridge with thermostat control.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I'm thinking banana will be a trait of the beer.

Swamp cooler with a fan?

Seriously, there is a way.

 

[H-ost]

Look into swamp coolers. It might take quite a bit of replacing the ice with that high of ambient temps though...

 

[Maxkling]

The saison yeast will completely change your beer.

I use a chest freezer and I'm in Atlanta. There are many ways depending on how much interaction you want. I like to set it and forget it till its done. But you can look at swap coolers or submerging you fermenter into a water bath and changing out ice bottles, etc.

 

[spenghali]

Use the summers to make some saisons. Chill your wort low and let the fermentation naturally rise up to your ambient temp over a few days, this is usually what you would want for a saison yeast anyways. Saisons are so diverse (pretty much using saison yeast is the only thing you need to do for it to be a saison), so it should keep you busy all summer.

If you don't want this, you can search the forums for building ferm chambers, or perhaps your basement is cooler. You can also use a big rubbermaid bin (round) and fill it with water to have more thermal mass and keep your temperatures in check better.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

I'm in AZ too and use a rubbermaid tub (doesn't matter what shape) with water about halfway up the fermenter. Right now the house is 75+ and my fermometer is staying around 63 by replacing frozen 2 liter bottles twice a day. Right now I only have to use 1 ice bottle at a time. In the summer, I will probably have to use 2 or 3 but it is a cheap/easy fix until I can get a mini fridge and temp controller.

 

[WileECoyote]

Thank You every one for all of your replies, this forum is great, Im sure its obvious im a real noob to brewing, so new in-fact that I will be brewing my first batch ever this weekend, if my brewing kit ( with a red ale ) show's up that is, so if I use a Saisons yeast and want to use high temp fermenting ? do any of you have a good recipe to go with it? its going to get hot here soon.
Thanks
WileECoyote

 

[cheezydemon3]

Seriously, a tub and a t-shirt and a fan will get it down enough without ice.

 

[WileECoyote]

Use the summers to make some saisons. Chill your wort low and let the fermentation naturally rise up to your ambient temp over a few days, this is usually what you would want for a saison yeast anyways. Saisons are so diverse (pretty much using saison yeast is the only thing you need to do for it to be a saison), so it should keep you busy all summer.

If you don't want this, you can search the forums for building ferm chambers, or perhaps your basement is cooler. You can also use a big rubbermaid bin (round) and fill it with water to have more thermal mass and keep your temperatures in check better.

Thanks spenghali for your reply, the first part of your reply is along the lines of what I am looking for, any hot fermenting yeast and or hot fermenting beer recipes would be great!
Thanks
WileECoyote

 

[TopherM]

$50.00 for good chest freezers all over craigslist
$55-65 for a Johnson A419 temp controller
=
Temperature controlled fermentation chamber

Chest freezers are WAYYYY more energy efficient than normal fridges (something on the order to $20-25 a year to operate), so you can even keep it outside if you don't have the floorspace for it.

 

[WileECoyote]

Seriously, a tub and a t-shirt and a fan will get it down enough without ice.

Thanks cheezydemon, the reason Im asking about a high temp fermenting, is that when its 125 deg out side, 85 deg in the house with ac running full blast, if Im figuring this out right? 85 deg air temp + 10 deg carboy fermenting temp - 10 deg to 15 deg wet towel with fan on carboy, brings you back to 85 to 90 deg fermenting temp. and Im a noob so I could be way off on this, I have been reading a lot trying to learn, but I haven't found much about fermenting at 85 to 90 deg yet.
Thank You
WileECoyote

 

[WileECoyote]

Saison yeast is proabbly your best bet if you can't get the temps down.

Note that your beers may have a bit of a different character with a differen yeast - though you may end up with a great creation that way.

Incidentally, esters are flavors produced by yeast. Sometimes these are desired, soemtimes not, and differetn yeasts make different esters (sometimes at different temperature ranges ). Fusel alcohols are the "rocket fuel" flavors you get by high fermentation temps.

Thanks homebrewdad, I knew I was going to get something messed up on my post, thanks for letting me know that esters are flavors produced by yeast by the yeast. so its the Fusel alcohol that I read about, is that be produced by any high temp fermenting? or is it produced by fermenting at higher than the yeast is to be used at?
Thanks
WileECoyote
Thanks
WileECoyote

 

[azmark]

az here as well,,,just get a mini fridge or freezer off craigslist like Topher suggested, then you can brew whatever you like.

 

[WileECoyote]

A Belgian saison yeast will ferment at 85-90, but it won't ferment "clean" - that's part of the saison style, and a product of the yeast's metabolic processes. You can brew a stout recipe with saison yeast, but you'll get a lot of saison flavors like bubblegum and barnyard funkiness in with your roast flavors.

If you want to brew most classic beer styles, you'll need to ferment in a mini-fridge with thermostat control.

Thanks Kerin, do you have any recommendations? recipes? and Im good with a beer with floaty's in it, I kinda like shock-top, if clean and high temp fermenting don't go hand and hand Im good with that, I just didn't know.
Thanks
WileECoyote

 

[homebrewdad]

Thanks Kerin, do you have any recommendations? recipes? and Im good with a beer with floaty's in it, I kinda like shock-top, if clean and high temp fermenting don't go hand and hand Im good with that, I just didn't know.
Thanks
WileECoyote

By "clean", Kerin is talking about the off flavors that you'll get (fruity, bubblegum, etc) - not that you'll get floaties. These are desired in a saison, not so much in other styles if you are trying to be true to style.

Fusels usually come from stressed yeast operating at the upper end of their temperature range, and can give you a warm, boozy, or solvent taste in your beer.

 

[WileECoyote]

az here as well,,,just get a mini fridge or freezer off craigslist like Topher suggested, then you can brew whatever you like.

Thanks azmark, I have a extra fridge, but I would really like to find a brew that I can fermenting hot, just to do it, or learn why you really cant do it, I would think that their has to be people out there making good beer at 85 to 90 deg fermenting temps, I could be wrong.
Thanks
WileECoyote

 

[WileECoyote]

By "clean", Kerin is talking about the off flavors that you'll get (fruity, bubblegum, etc) - not that you'll get floaties. These are desired in a saison, not so much in other styles if you are trying to be true to style.

Fusels usually come from stressed yeast operating at the upper end of their temperature range, and can give you a warm, boozy, or solvent taste in your beer.

Thanks homeprewdad, Im catching on, this is all very new to me, Im still working on what means what.
Thanks
WileECoyote

 

[azmark]

Thanks azmark, I have a extra fridge, but I would really like to find a brew that I can fermenting hot, just to do it, or learn why you really cant do it, I would think that their has to be people out there making good beer at 85 to 90 deg fermenting temps, I could be wrong.
Thanks
WileECoyote

Are you sure you like the style? Another fermenting tip is keep your temps consistant,,AZ is hard to do that with super hot days and cool nights, and no basements.

If you could keep a consistant 87* you might be able to brew a good saison. But with a wild temp ride the yeast aren't going to be making what you want.

 

[homebrewdad]

If you could keep a consistant 87* you might be able to brew a good saison. But with a wild temp ride the yeast aren't going to be making what you want.

This. If you like saisons, then you have your answer - good beer at high temp. Just be sure to keep the temp stablle; big swings will really hurt the flavor.

 

[WileECoyote]

Thank You, to everyone, any and all information is helping, this is a great forum, its really nice to ask noob questions and not get bashed on, Im very impressed how everyone has answered without making me feel like a noob, Thank You and keep em coming!
WileECoyote

 

[WileECoyote]

Are you sure you like the style? Another fermenting tip is keep your temps consistant,,AZ is hard to do that with super hot days and cool nights, and no basements.

If you could keep a consistant 87* you might be able to brew a good saison. But with a wild temp ride the yeast aren't going to be making what you want.

Thanks azmark, I can keep the house at 85 to 87 deg consistent temp, and Im not sure about that saison's style of beer, yet but Im thinking when it gets hot Im going to find out lol, I do like a lot of different types of beers light to dark, I also do like a sweet beer so it might just be what Im looking for.
Thanks
WileECoyote

 

[WileECoyote]

Update.
The saison is in the fridge and its a hit with me, the wife dose not like it=saison taste, Im going to be brewing this one again, I went with the Belgian Saison yeast 75 to 95deg fermenting temps range on the label. and of corse the day after I brewed we had 5 cool days in a row 70deg-ish lmao I had to keep adding hot water to the tub to keep it within the range and didn't have to use any ice for my other brews, now that its 100+ every day this saison is going to be my new brewing friend.

This was my own first recipe, first saison and my first brew with herbs only too, I figured what the heck, rolled the dice, and got a winner, I added the herbs too soon and they along with the 1oz coriander are too bitter, so Im using this brew as a shanty 50/50 mix of brew and tonic water and its great this way.

I will be adjusting the addition times of the herbs and most likely not using coriander any more as I have 2 brews with coriander and both taste very very astringent/bitter/lemon to me, my wife loves the other brew (NTOLERANCE's amber/wheat) brewed exactly to instructions, my wife states that its as good as any beer that she has ever had, So Im convinced my taste buds are hyper sensitive to coriander, so say-la-vee to coriander.

Cheers

 

[RiffMagnum]

Update.
The saison is in the fridge and its a hit with me, the wife dose not like it=saison taste, Im going to be brewing this one again, I went with the Belgian Saison yeast 75 to 95deg fermenting temps range on the label. and of corse the day after I brewed we had 5 cool days in a row 70deg-ish lmao I had to keep adding hot water to the tub to keep it within the range and didn't have to use any ice for my other brews, now that its 100+ every day this saison is going to be my new brewing friend.

This was my own first recipe, first saison and my first brew with herbs only too, I figured what the heck, rolled the dice, and got a winner, I added the herbs too soon and they along with the 1oz coriander are too bitter, so Im using this brew as a shanty 50/50 mix of brew and tonic water and its great this way.

I will be adjusting the addition times of the herbs and most likely not using coriander any more as I have 2 brews with coriander and both taste very very astringent/bitter/lemon to me, my wife loves the other brew (NTOLERANCE's amber/wheat) brewed exactly to instructions, my wife states that its as good as any beer that she has ever had, So Im convinced my taste buds are hyper sensitive to coriander, so say-la-vee to coriander.

Cheers

I think you mean shandy.

 

[WileECoyote]

I think you mean shandy.

lol yes I do

 

[WileECoyote]

Update, Last weekend I brewed a new saison batch (Belgian saison yeast, Ideal Temperature Range (°F) 70-95F, (21-35C)) with honey, orange, no coriander, and herbs steeped for 3 min then added to the 80 deg wort just before pitching the yeast, I did steeping test with my herb additions and found that a 3 min steeping extraction, then immediately cool to be a great way to extract the herb flavors without getting any astringent-ness from them.

I (swamp cooler) controlled 1st day of (vigorous fermentation) at 72 deg, 2nd day at 76 deg, today is day 3 and will be kept at 80 deg, from day 4 it will be kept at 85 deg, day 5 on it will be kept at 85 deg, easy to do (no ice needed in swamp cooler, whooo hooo ) in a house that is kept at 85 deg and still well under the 95 deg high temp range.

The 1st saison is almost 1/2 gone now, its been a very refreshing drink mixing it with the tonic water.

The amber/wheat is all gone, my wife is bummed, me to as the coriander is starting to mellow, except one 6 pack Im saving to see how it is after 4 months aging.

I will update the new brews progress as it happens

Cheers

 

[Tiredboy]

Also thinking about brewing a saison as my keezer/fermentation chamber may not have enough space in without remioving keg/wine which I don't want to do for too long (intend on putting it in chamber for a few days then letting it sit in spare room as around 80-90F). Is there a dry yeast that can successfully be used for a saison?

 

[WileECoyote]

Also thinking about brewing a saison as my keezer/fermentation chamber may not have enough space in without remioving keg/wine which I don't want to do for too long (intend on putting it in chamber for a few days then letting it sit in spare room as around 80-90F). Is there a dry yeast that can successfully be used for a saison?

I haven't found a dry saison yeast yet, but I have not really looked very hard for one ether.

I used the wyeast 3724 belgian saison yeast for the simple fact that it has the 95 deg top fermenting temp, and its low is 70 deg, much higher limits than other yeast.

You can have it shipped with a cheap freezer pack wrapped around it, if I were to order liquid yeast now I would order it on a sunday and have them wrap yeast with 3 freezer packs, and Im still not sure it would survive, were at 110+ deg now almost every day.

I would go for it, very easy to maintain a brew at 80 to 85 deg temps.

Cheers and good luck

 

[Tiredboy]

I live in Jamaica and shipping liquid yeast is not an option.

 

[WileECoyote]

Hello Tiredboy, I saw your Location after I posted my last reply, Im guessing there isn't any home brew shops there ether.

I dont think that there is a dry saison yeast, at least I haven't seen any yet, Ill look this weekend if I get some extra time, maybe ask on this forum ?

Cheers

 

[iambeer]

I wouldn't bother with a swamp cooler unless you check it at least twice a day to add ice, etc (what a pain). I use a swamp cooler to lower the temperature by 5-8 degrees without using ice or a fan but my starting temp is 70. In your seat I would do what the Old World did: don't brew during the summer. Or buy the modern refrigeration apparatus.

 

[Justintoxicated]

You will want a chest freezer and temp controller, maybe even a second one to age or condition the beer in.

I know cause I'm in SoCal and although it is not nearly as hot, I have no AC so my indoor temps are often 85-90 as well, and no basement.

Costco has a decent Haier chest freezer for sale 7.1 cuft. expect to spent $50-80 for the temp controller. I wouldn't bother fermenting in that heat, the actual fermentation temp will be above your ambient temperature.

 

[WileECoyote]

Hello, all I can say is, Belgian Saison Yeast Ideal Temperature Range (°F) 70-95F, No Ice needed, No chest freezer needed, summer brewing at its best, mine has been in a swamp cooler without ice for 6 days now, holding its temps at 79 to 82 deg, checked quite often, my house is at 85 to 87 all day.

I age and condition my brews in a large ice chest's with about 4" of water in them, it only takes one to two 32oz frozen bottles of water per 24hrs to keep my bottles at 70 deg, yes swamp cooler bottle conditioning works great too.

Justintoxicated you are right I would need 2=7.1 cuft chest freezers (1 for fermenting/1 for conditioning) @ $200.00ea + 2 controllers @ lets say $69.00ea on sale, for a grand total of $538.00 thats way more disposable income than I have right now, so I will be fermenting HOT BREWS.

I would really appreciate responses about Hot Fermenting Questions, 90 deg ?

Thanks

 

[jonmohno]

It would be a good idea to invest in a chest freezer/temp controller.Az is too warm to brew regular ales.Its a good idea if you plan on brewing alot,if not then your making belgian style funky beers mainly. A swamp cooler will work but too me in that climate,the chest freezer will give relief for regular consistant brewing. Bottle conditoning may be another issue as well if you plan on long term storage,because you want to keep them around 70 to carb and after that a cooler temp(or cellering) is good for long term storage.
Woops looks like it was already posted,sorry for a repeated response. Swamp cooling will cheaply keep you going,unless you brew so much and get tired of it,its about as hard as(not even) brushing your teeth 3 times a day.

 

[WileECoyote]

I live in Jamaica and shipping liquid yeast is not an option.

Hello Tiredboy, I did a google search for hot fermenting yeast and another for dry saison yeast for sale and came up with this.

Copied from Northern brew site.

chriscose

Master Brewer
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:35 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:21 pm
T-58 dry yeast for a saison?
I recently really started to enjoy saisons, and considering I never brewed this style I thought it time to give it a try. I have T-58 already and was wondering if anyone has experience or an opinion on the use of this yeast in a saison.

If T-58 wouldn't be a good yeast for a saison, what style would it lend itself more towards. I figure I have it I might as well brew something with it...


Denny

Master Brewer
Posts: 19601
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:09 pm
Location: Eugene OR
Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:39 pm
As dry yeasts go, that's about the best choice for a saison. Not exactly the right thing, but will not suck either. If you want to go liquid, Wyeast 3711, which was just released as a VSS, is a great saison yeast.
Life begins at 60....1.060, that is.

www.dennybrew.com

Also copied from Northern Brew site.
Safbrew T-58 Ale Yeast
A specialty ale yeast selected for its estery, somewhat peppery and spicy flavor. This yeast forms a solid sediment at the end of secondary fermentation, and is therefore widely used for bottle and cask conditioning. Optimum temp: 59°-75° F

Also S-33 dry yeast was mentioned.

I know the fermenting temps are lower than you are looking for, but at least its a Dry Yeast and kinda saison results.

Ill look again for any dry yeast that can ferment at 85 to 90 deg, when I have more time.

Hope this helps

Cheers

 

[jonmohno]

I made a hefe with t-58, and a belgian pale ale with s-33.Both turned out great with a 66-68 deg. ambient summer basement temp. I had issues with a saison i did with t-58 mainly because i splitt yeast packs for small batches and think that those yeast may be more vaunerable to become carriers of wild yeast easier because opening the pack and using it again after sealing and storing it over a few week-month period. Other than that ive splitt and stored regular ale yeast packs like o5 and nottingham without a problem. That beer ended up better with some more age on it but i think saisons are suppose to age longer anyway.