Hop Stand/Whirlpool - Getting great hop aroma/flavor

[ArcLight]

Hmm, I dunno if I have any hard rules for hopstands. I usually divide my flameout/180F hops depending onwhat I want to taste and smell more. Here's the hop bill for my last few IPAs

Regular IPA - tropical berry melon
@60: 1 oz apollo
@15: 1 oz Belma / 1 oz Huell Melon
@0: 1 oz Belma / 2 oz Huell Melon / 2 oz Pac gem / 1 El Dorado
@+30: 1 oz Belma / 1 oz Huell Melon / 2 oz Pac gem / 1 El Dorado
@dry: 1 oz Belma / 1 El Dorado
@2nddry: 1 El Dorado / 1 oz citra
@keg: 2 oz citra

Black IPA - pine dank touch of citrus
@30: 1 summit
@15: 1 simcoe / 1 adha484
@0: 1 simcoe / 3 adha484/ 2 chinook /
@+30: 1 simcoe / 2 chinook / 3 vics secret
@dry: 1 simcoe / 1 chinook
@dry2: 2 comet / 1 vics secret
@keg: 1 simcoe / 1 chinook

You some kind of lightweight, only using 22 ounces of hops?
Any brewer that uses less than 2 pounds isn't a real brewer.


This is for 5 gallons right?


I used 8 ounces for 5 gallons and was quite pleased. Even that may be too much as I wonder if I got "full value" from the hops.

 

[m00ps]

yeah those are 5 gallon batches. I think I may need to look into some sort of 12 step program. Its a slippery slope...once you start ramping up the hopstand additions you dont want to bother making an IPA with any less...

 

[zwiller]

I remember people freaking when I said a pound for 5G...

Moops: do you think the fruit intensity you describe (tropical mango tangerine) is on par with pro IPAs? My IPA are good, hoppy, and relatively fruity, but the the pro beers are like they are cheating with fruit juice/fruit extract/etc. Wonder if they have access to fresher hops or something.

 

[m00ps]

They probably have better access to hops, or some dirty secret. I am anything but unbiased, however I would say that the hop flavors I get are more pungent than any commercial IPA I've ever had. But then again, that may be due to storage and distribution times on their end.

I did get a 6pack of Stone's Enjoy By 10/31/15 last week though. It was bottled 9/26 it says. This thing is decidedly more bitter than my DIPA I mentioned, but its flavors seem almost muted compared to mine.

Id definitely say to give hop levels like that a shot sometime. Its expensive, but well worth it IMO

 

[m00ps]

Ok so I brought a glass of it to my local brewery. Omg, they straight up offered me a job. If anyone wants the recipe I will be glad to give it. My head is swelling but I am absolutely floored by this beer. Let me know if anyone wants one or the recipe. I want to get rid of this before it declines, I would feel so bad if half of it doesn't get experienced before its too late...

 

[kchomebrew]

Found this great slide deck/presentation on making Hop Fu IPA. Had to be done by Kelsey McNair, I'm assuming. About as comprehensive a listing of techniques as I've seen....
http://societyofbarleyengineers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ArtOfHop-Fu.pdf

I'm finding the information in this presentation VERY interesting. I know there's been a lot of talk about sulfate levels, etc. on this thread, so to quote directly "
Strike Water Profile:
Calcium @ 125-150ppm - Instrumental in all beer production. Promotes clarity, flavor and stability. Lowers mash pH.
Sulfate @ 200-250ppm - accentuates hop bitterness Chloride @ 40-50ppm - punches up malt flavor/fullness
Bicarbonate @ sub 40ppm - high levels make hops soapy/harsh, dull, or “blah” tasting
Magnesium @ 10-20ppm - important for yeast in metabolizing adjunct sugars (ex: dextrose in Double/Imperial IPA)

And then I found the details about the mash, specifically that he's only holding the mash at 152F for 35min (I'm usually 60 min or 90min depending). before sparging. And a 70 min sparge at that....very very long sparge (I'm usually a 30min sparge - never have issues hitting my anticipated readings):
Strike Water: 13 gallons (1.56 quarts / pound)
100% Reverse Osmosis + 25g Gypsum & 5g Calcium Chloride
Sparge Water: 11 gallons 100% Reverse Osmosis Saccharification Rest: Single infusion, 20 minutes @ 152 F Vorlauf: ~15 minutes
Sparge: 60 minutes @ 170 F

And, in my opinion, assuming you keep an O2 free environment in your conical, I think this is where the magic happens:

Day 1: Cool wort to ideal pitching temp of 67F, Aerate wort with pure O2 through diffusion stone, Pitch yeast starter or freshly harvested slurry, and Attach blow off tubing
Day 2-7: Maintain 67F fermentation temperature via external temp controller
Day 8: Remove blow off, seal fermenter (keg or conical only!!) Day 10: Reduce to 60F for diacetyl rest
Day 11: Dump trub, harvest yeast slurry, add dry hops, return to 67F
Day 14-16: Begin crash cycle, cooling 10F every 12 hours until 37F Day 17: Rack...

Anyone have any thoughts on the Day 8 comment ? Removing the blow off and "seal fermenter" ? Is it possible he's completely sealing off the fermenter (no airlock) for the remainder of the fermenting/dry hop/crash cycle ? Sort of makes sense to me as I think about it - and especially with the drop to 60F, I would assume that would drop out a lot of yeast/cease most of the active fermentation before increasing back to 67F for 4 days for the drop hop.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Day 8 comment ? Removing the blow off and "seal fermenter" ? Is it possible he's completely sealing off the fermenter (no airlock) for the remainder of the fermenting/dry hop/crash cycle ? Sort of makes sense to me as I think about it - and especially with the drop to 60F, I would assume that would drop out a lot of yeast/cease most of the active fermentation before increasing back to 67F for 4 days for the drop hop.

This is his/her process that works with their equipment and variables. I wouldn't think day 8 would work for every yeast strain. It would also be dependent on things like pitch rate, cell density and other factors.

Closing the airlock off makes sense to me to keep the yeast under pressure. Dropping to 60 then rasing back up probably benefits in the ways you describe. I experimented once with a dry hop that low because Oskar Blues said it was in their process. There wasn't nearly the same aroma extraction as 67/8.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Ok so I brought a glass of it to my local brewery. Omg, they straight up offered me a job. If anyone wants the recipe I will be glad to give it. My head is swelling but I am absolutely floored by this beer. Let me know if anyone wants one or the recipe. I want to get rid of this before it declines, I would feel so bad if half of it doesn't get experienced before its too late...

Which beer was it?

 

[m00ps]

Its this the OJ geared double IPA I posted the hop bill for earlier. I think I finally dialed in the perfect IPA to my tastes. Last regular IPA I did ended up a tiny bit too bitter so I cut the bittering addition to account for the large hopstand. Its perfect. I just need to figure out how to adjust my regular berry/melon IPA to have similar hop presence

 

[mesooohoppy]

Subbing for some post work reading!

 

[zwiller]

Ok so I brought a glass of it to my local brewery. Omg, they straight up offered me a job. If anyone wants the recipe I will be glad to give it. My head is swelling but I am absolutely floored by this beer. Let me know if anyone wants one or the recipe. I want to get rid of this before it declines, I would feel so bad if half of it doesn't get experienced before its too late...

You tell them how much hops you use yet? My IPAs are pungent too but a bit too grassy. I've been actually scaling back due to this. Something like 10-12oz works. I am chasing after how to get the fruit to "pop" so to speak. The fruit seems to get lost in a mix of bitterness/grass/pungency and I just get a hint of fruit. English yeast has helped, but I am not after a HT type of thing. To me, draft Founder's Cent IPA is the best. Aroma and taste is almost fruit perfume.

 

[m00ps]

yeah ive had some turn out grassy too. Well, more resinous than grassy, but enough to turn off those who dont like hops. Not sure if it was the hop varieties used or where I concentrated the additions. But this doesnt have any trace of resin or vegetal flavor on the back. Its super clean finishing despite the 9%abv and amount of hop flavor. I think it may be do to using Conan and then a tiny bit of 3711 two days in to dry it out more.

Another thing I think helps is using wheat in IPAs. I usually do 20-30% and it really does seem to bring out the fruity juicy flavors in hops

 

[MadHomebrewer]

If you are looking to get any appreciable bitterness from your hopstands, i would use a lot more than a measly 2oz. Ill usually add some at flameout and more below ~180F and it turns out very well. I only will use 0.5-1.0oz at 60min for what id estimate is liek 50% of my bittering and get the rest form the hopstand. I would also do 30min at the very least for a hopstand

Just had a bottle the other night. It actually worked out quite well. The key is to have a substantial bittering charge at the beginning of the boil. In this case I used an ounce of Magnum at 60 minutes and then for a little more 2 oz at flameout. The rest were added in the whirlpool at 170. Actually had hop oils floating on the surface after whirlpool with the 4oz of hops I added. It was definitely what I was after here.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445000104.708147.jpg

 

[hanuswalrus]

Subbed

 

[m00ps]

I think I convinced this brewery to give my take on IPAs a shot. Their IPA is very traditional English style. The way I do mine is much closer to the newer "east coast" hop bombs that have restrained bitterness. Some pf the people ive given it to without telling them what style it is and it never occurs to them its an IPA

They also liked the idea of using flour for the permanent haze (but for their orange blossom wheat since it always clears after like a week in the keg)

 

[MadHomebrewer]

I think I convinced this brewery to give my take on IPAs a shot. Their IPA is very traditional English style. The way I do mine is much closer to the newer "east coast" hop bombs that have restrained bitterness. Some pf the people ive given it to without telling them what style it is and it never occurs to them its an IPA

They also liked the idea of using flour for the permanent haze (but for their orange blossom wheat since it always clears after like a week in the keg)

That's awesome, congrats m00ps!

 

[Sbear55]

I think I convinced this brewery to give my take on IPAs a shot. Their IPA is very traditional English style. The way I do mine is much closer to the newer "east coast" hop bombs that have restrained bitterness. Some pf the people ive given it to without telling them what style it is and it never occurs to them its an IPA

They also liked the idea of using flour for the permanent haze (but for their orange blossom wheat since it always clears after like a week in the keg)

m00ps - Have you posted the Orange Juice IPA recipe yet? Please do so!

 

[hanuswalrus]

So it might be covered somewhere in this thread, and sorry if it is, but can anybody elaborate on this part of the original post?? :

"– Caution: long wort stand OK if you have a strong, vigorous 90 min boil"

What are the negatives of a long wort stand if you only boil for, say, 60 minutes?

 

[zwiller]

I don't think it's been covered. I think in theory a longer boil will drop more polyphenols allowing you to steep longer without much new polyphenol (hops>grass) extraction from the hops. I am not sure it affects us homebrewers and maybe a just a pro thing. To simplify, I think there is a chance of increased grassiness with short boil and long stand. Maybe someone will test. I will say I've done long (60m+) hop stands and my results were overbitter. This of course was above 185F. I think a 30m hot and 30m cold might work though.

 

[Neptune]

This is a great thread, lots of information...

Trying to relate this to no-chill brewing and it seems to be a direct contradiction to the whole idea of just subtracting 20 minutes from your hop additions if you're going to no-chill after the boil (and pitch the next day).

For example, if a recipe calls for a 30 minute hop addition and you're using the no-chill method... the "rule of thumb" seems to be that you would wait to add that particular addition until there are only 10 minutes left in the boil.

After reading this thread, it seems that you would want to add these hops at flameout at the absolute earliest. It's even more likely that you would wait until you're down to 180 degress in the cooling process.

I realize a lot of factors come in to play here (the biggest one being ambient temperature), but is the 20 minute rule an outdated idea? It seems like there is a lot more utilization going on in a hop stand than I originally thought.

 

[m00ps]

I wouldnt call it "outdated" but typically with a hopstand/whirlpool you are agitating the wort so you do get better utilization than leaving a flameout addition sitting overnight to cool

 

[m00ps]

In case anyone else is interested, Im going to be bottling the remainder of this OJ DIPA using my beer gun sometime next week. I wasnt joking about trying to get rid of it before the absurd hop character starts to fade.

I could probably mail out a dozen bottles or so. Someone would need to help me out with how to invoice someone using paypal or whats the easiest way to pay shipping though

 

[zwiller]

I'd be interested in some yeast samples. Personally I find shipping beer a PITA. I would pack a bottle well bubble wrapped in a smallish box, take to UPS and get a quote. Mark it up for PP and offer it. In PM's exchange paypal info. Take to UPS and ship. Tons easier with USPS flat rate boxes but not cool with alcohol.

 

[Lukes1040]

I would love a sample. Just kegged a 5 gal dipa with 18oz in the boil/whirlpool and about 7 oz dry hop. Would be great to compare, I think the hops I got were on the older end and I am lacking aroma that I thought would be there a little stronger. Let me know and I can front some shipping cost on PayPal.

If I have your PayPal account I believe I can just send you funds, I don't think an invoice is required. But I could be wrong

 

[m00ps]

I'd be interested in some yeast samples. Personally I find shipping beer a PITA. I would pack a bottle well bubble wrapped in a smallish box, take to UPS and get a quote. Mark it up for PP and offer it. In PM's exchange paypal info. Take to UPS and ship. Tons easier with USPS flat rate boxes but not cool with alcohol.

Thanks great idea. I was considering jsut using a small cube-ish USPS box and put in a 4pack to include other stuff to try and just have them be none the wiser. When I empty the keg I can PM people

 

[lilbova3]

Made a brew yesterday with a bittering charge as a FWH and then added 8 ounces for a one hour WP beginning at a temp of 170* and letting it natural cool without the wort chiller.

Looking forward to how this turns out! It's only a 2.5 gallon batch size.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Next time I do this, I plan to use hop shots for the bittering charge @60min.

 

[ShaLaH]

So glad I stumbled upon this thread as I'm putting together a recipe for a Citra/Mosaic IPA right now.

A lot of great info here & congrats m00ps on crafting a killer beer. I'd love to try some.

I've never done a hopstand but plan on trying for this batch. But I'm confused. Isn't DMS a factor in this? I had always read and heard that you should get your wort post-boil to pitching temp as quick as you can to alleviate any DMS. Does that thinking no longer hold up?

Also, when you say you're gonna do a hopstand for 30 mins @ 130 - are you keeping the kettle on low to hold that temp or just letting it naturally cool down? So the hopstand starts at 130 and the temp decreases over the 30 minutes.

:rockin:

 

[ncbrewer]

Isn't DMS a factor in this? I had always read and heard that you should get your wort post-boil to pitching temp as quick as you can to alleviate any DMS. Does that thinking no longer hold up?

See this article: http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands
It touches on DMS.

 

[lilbova3]

Made a brew yesterday with a bittering charge as a FWH and then added 8 ounces for a one hour WP beginning at a temp of 170* and letting it natural cool without the wort chiller.

Looking forward to how this turns out! It's only a 2.5 gallon batch size.

Just an update, bottled this yesterday and the aroma and flavor were great! I did not dry hop this IPA and I thought the aroma was still on par with a dry hopped beer. We'll see how it tastes after being carbed. I'll keep you posted.