kchomebrew
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So the title says it all. I wanted to memorialize, if for nothing else, any/all info I can turn up on some definitive late addition/whirlpool/hop stand techniques and temps. I know there are other threads out there, but the info can be scattered or contradicting when I read through it. I read a great article on Embrace the Funk and it was an interview of Chad Yakobson from Crooked Stave. I think they make some fantastic beers and I was really appreciative of the comments/notes in the interview about late addition hops, click here. There were some comments about avoiding 90/60 min. additions of Magnum/Warrior type hops to avoid heavy bitterness (mentioned they can come off astringent and overpowering...to each their own of course) and instead go with Chinook or Centennial at 15min and work in the remaining hops as late additions. There were also comments about whirlpool/knockout techniques that where interesting. The comment was "....what’s nice about a whirlpool is once you run it through that’s another vessel taking temperature out, so now you can be down to 185F. So at 185F that’s where you are able to pull the “sesquiterpenes” and “terpenes”, which are highly volatile aromatics and compounds that are in hops. Normally when you hops to the boil they just “vapor” off because they are so volatile, but when you are at 180F…you are pulling them in and those compounds aren’t being driven off the beer. That gives the aroma and flavor you are looking for."
Additionally, there some comment about the length of time that hops are in contact with the wort at knockout and through whirlpool, as follows:
"As soon as I turned off the steam to the jackets on the boil kettle and started the whirlpool, that’s when the first hop additions were added. It’s all aroma hops additions, but you are still getting some IBUs. You still get utilization even at 180 degrees and we’re not getting to 180 degrees until the end of knocking out. You whirlpool for roughly 15 minutes, then rest for 10-15 minutes so that’s 30 minutes already the hops have been sitting. Knock out takes another 30-45 minutes, so from the time you’ve added the first hops they’ve been in there over an hour. So there is isomerization going on…albeit the utilization is not 30%, probably 1 %. But all the same it’s still occurring and that’s where I find more than enough bitterness for the beers we are brewing."
Another good comment was:
"Don’t be afraid to use a decent amount of hops. We are using anywhere from 2 to 4 pounds per barrel. In the black IPA I went a little lighter using 2 pounds per barrel so for homebrewers we are looking at half a pound to 1 pound per carboy. A 1/3rd of that for late hopping and 2/3rd for dry hopping"
And then most everyone has read the BYO article about hop standing. The thing about that article is that it doesn't really draw any conclusions on what works best. Here. In that article, I found the comment useful about:
"The 190–212 °F (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. "
From the ETF article and the BYO article, the perception I have after reading is to ditch 90/60 min bittering additions and use a high AA hop (your preference) at around 15/10 min. for bittering and aroma/flavor and then start add all the remaining hops starting at flameout/knockout and through whirlpool/hop stand to obtain subtle bitterness and really ramp up aroma/flavor. And if you are trying to calculate utilization, I'd say a good rule would be 10-15% at post boil temps of 212F-200F, 5-10% at 200F-190F, and at 190F to 180F you are looking at around 1-5%. All of that is useful from an IBU/bitterness standpoint. So, dependent on what sort of aroma/flavor punch you are looking for, in conjunction with bitterness, you can make your own judgement calls based on the profile you are going for.
Also, there is plenty of material out there on DIPA's and bigger IPAs to go with hop extract if you can for a cleaner taste and to also make sure the beer is dry (add in some table sugar to the boil and mash low 149/150) to accentuate hop aroma.
I also enjoyed the recipe notes on Electric Brewery.com about hop standing, here.
Also, there are some slides from a presentation Ray Daniels gave on hop standing noting:
Stretching Your Hops Conclusion:
• Dry hop gives best aroma
• Long steep increases hop character
– Caution: long wort stand OK if you have a strong, vigorous 90 min boil
• For a given amount of finishing hops: – Best results if you split them btw steep and dry
And of course, make sure you are mindful of your water profile (Ca and SO4 levels)
All of this seems to support what I've known, whether I arrived at it by accident or from trial and error. I'm still narrowing into the best hop stand temps, but find that 185-175F for 30min. is perfect for pale ales and the sort. I did a hop stand for an IPA starting around 200F and let it free fall to 180F for 60m and it was just too bitter for my liking (of course, I used Warrior at FWH). So I'm thinking I could probably omit most/if not all my early additions (90/60) on IPAs and add various bittering charge amounts around 10/15min. and then start at flameout with additions to gather subtle bitterness and then add more and more hops towards 185F to bring in aroma/flavor. Typically I've always used various amounts of Warrior hops at 90min./FWH for most of my hoppy beers, but I may ease back/off of that in the future.
I plan on brewing an IPA in the next couple of weeks and I'll be putting some of these thoughts to test. Anyway, hope whoever reads this finds some useful thoughts/info and feel free to add what you know to this thread. Thx.
>> new addition 3/10/14 <<< A couple of new links to add. One is a website link to a blog called "In Hop Pursuit". Interesting article about the different oils in hops and how those can potentially impact aroma/flavor. Click here. Overall, a load of great snippets about all things hops. One thing I am going to tinker with is hop oil ratios in the next hoppy beer I brew. There's also another blog "Beer Sensory Science" that has more info on hop oils. Essentially, scientific support that late additions are the way to go to get noticeable linalool presence in the aroma/flavor of your beer (flowery aroma/flavor). According to the article, dry hopping will not help you achieve that. Click here. Also, if you are interested in charting/tracking hop oils in your beer, you can use the following spreadsheet. I found this spreadsheet link and many of the prior mentioned links on The Mad Fermentationist blog.
Additionally, there some comment about the length of time that hops are in contact with the wort at knockout and through whirlpool, as follows:
"As soon as I turned off the steam to the jackets on the boil kettle and started the whirlpool, that’s when the first hop additions were added. It’s all aroma hops additions, but you are still getting some IBUs. You still get utilization even at 180 degrees and we’re not getting to 180 degrees until the end of knocking out. You whirlpool for roughly 15 minutes, then rest for 10-15 minutes so that’s 30 minutes already the hops have been sitting. Knock out takes another 30-45 minutes, so from the time you’ve added the first hops they’ve been in there over an hour. So there is isomerization going on…albeit the utilization is not 30%, probably 1 %. But all the same it’s still occurring and that’s where I find more than enough bitterness for the beers we are brewing."
Another good comment was:
"Don’t be afraid to use a decent amount of hops. We are using anywhere from 2 to 4 pounds per barrel. In the black IPA I went a little lighter using 2 pounds per barrel so for homebrewers we are looking at half a pound to 1 pound per carboy. A 1/3rd of that for late hopping and 2/3rd for dry hopping"
And then most everyone has read the BYO article about hop standing. The thing about that article is that it doesn't really draw any conclusions on what works best. Here. In that article, I found the comment useful about:
"The 190–212 °F (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. "
From the ETF article and the BYO article, the perception I have after reading is to ditch 90/60 min bittering additions and use a high AA hop (your preference) at around 15/10 min. for bittering and aroma/flavor and then start add all the remaining hops starting at flameout/knockout and through whirlpool/hop stand to obtain subtle bitterness and really ramp up aroma/flavor. And if you are trying to calculate utilization, I'd say a good rule would be 10-15% at post boil temps of 212F-200F, 5-10% at 200F-190F, and at 190F to 180F you are looking at around 1-5%. All of that is useful from an IBU/bitterness standpoint. So, dependent on what sort of aroma/flavor punch you are looking for, in conjunction with bitterness, you can make your own judgement calls based on the profile you are going for.
Also, there is plenty of material out there on DIPA's and bigger IPAs to go with hop extract if you can for a cleaner taste and to also make sure the beer is dry (add in some table sugar to the boil and mash low 149/150) to accentuate hop aroma.
I also enjoyed the recipe notes on Electric Brewery.com about hop standing, here.
Also, there are some slides from a presentation Ray Daniels gave on hop standing noting:
Stretching Your Hops Conclusion:
• Dry hop gives best aroma
• Long steep increases hop character
– Caution: long wort stand OK if you have a strong, vigorous 90 min boil
• For a given amount of finishing hops: – Best results if you split them btw steep and dry
And of course, make sure you are mindful of your water profile (Ca and SO4 levels)
All of this seems to support what I've known, whether I arrived at it by accident or from trial and error. I'm still narrowing into the best hop stand temps, but find that 185-175F for 30min. is perfect for pale ales and the sort. I did a hop stand for an IPA starting around 200F and let it free fall to 180F for 60m and it was just too bitter for my liking (of course, I used Warrior at FWH). So I'm thinking I could probably omit most/if not all my early additions (90/60) on IPAs and add various bittering charge amounts around 10/15min. and then start at flameout with additions to gather subtle bitterness and then add more and more hops towards 185F to bring in aroma/flavor. Typically I've always used various amounts of Warrior hops at 90min./FWH for most of my hoppy beers, but I may ease back/off of that in the future.
I plan on brewing an IPA in the next couple of weeks and I'll be putting some of these thoughts to test. Anyway, hope whoever reads this finds some useful thoughts/info and feel free to add what you know to this thread. Thx.
>> new addition 3/10/14 <<< A couple of new links to add. One is a website link to a blog called "In Hop Pursuit". Interesting article about the different oils in hops and how those can potentially impact aroma/flavor. Click here. Overall, a load of great snippets about all things hops. One thing I am going to tinker with is hop oil ratios in the next hoppy beer I brew. There's also another blog "Beer Sensory Science" that has more info on hop oils. Essentially, scientific support that late additions are the way to go to get noticeable linalool presence in the aroma/flavor of your beer (flowery aroma/flavor). According to the article, dry hopping will not help you achieve that. Click here. Also, if you are interested in charting/tracking hop oils in your beer, you can use the following spreadsheet. I found this spreadsheet link and many of the prior mentioned links on The Mad Fermentationist blog.
