Does dry hopping with yeast in suspension actually reduce hop aroma?

[CyberFox]

I've been wondering lately if dry hopping with yeast in suspension actually reduces hop aroma from dry hopping.

I've heard arguments from both sides over the years:

• Some say that it's best to dry hop with as little yeast in suspension as possible since hops oils will cling to the yeast and get removed from the beer when they flocculate. Yeast activity will also supposedly blow hop aroma out of the airlock (also not sure if this is true).
• Others dry hop near the end of fermentation when there's still some yeast activity and don't worry about blowing off hop aroma through the airlock.

Is there some definitive proof (or at least good evidence) that can answer this question?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Malticulous]

I do think less yeast makes for more in the beer. I used to dry hop in secondary because of that. I've found out I can just add more hops.

 

[CyberFox]

I do think less yeast makes for more in the beer. I used to dry hop in secondary because of that. I've found out I can just add more hops.

So you're saying to compensate with more hops? That makes sense. Is the hop aroma the same as when you used a secondary?

I know that many pro brewers soft crash, remove the yeast, then dry hop. I know that process makes collecting yeast much easier, but I'm not sure if they consider dry hopping with large amounts of yeast in suspension a problem. I know that Firestone Walker purposefully dry hops near the end of fermentation while there is still yeast activity and their hop aroma doesn't seem to suffer. I don't think they cap during dry hopping either, so blowing off aromatics doesn't seem to be a problem.

I don't think it's possible to soft crash with lager yeast like 34/70 since it is still active down in the 30s. People seem to have no problem getting good hop aroma with 34/70, so dry hopping with yeast in suspension doesn't seem to be a problem there.

 

[Malticulous]

I brew my pale ales in buckets. Once the yeast has dropped I dry hop for ~three days. Not much more. Keg.

 

[day_trippr]

In 2023 I have been following Scott Janish's recommended "soft crash, then short and cool" approach to dry hopping and have been majorly impressed. My NEIPAs have never been as good since switching from two rounds of post-fermentation pitches to a single pitch after dropping the yeast.

Ironically, the recommendation was based on avoiding hop creep - a whole different issue - but I have zero doubt that getting the yeast (and any other detritus) out of the way with the soft crash would explain why I'm getting this huge hop character out of a single round of hops...

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

In 2023 I have been following Scott Janish's recommended "soft crash, then short and cool" approach to dry hopping and have been majorly impressed. My NEIPAs have never been as good since switching from two rounds of post-fermentation pitches to a single pitch after dropping the yeast.

Ironically, the recommendation was based on avoiding hop creep - a whole different issue - but I have zero doubt that getting the yeast (and any other detritus) out of the way with the soft crash would explain why I'm getting this huge hop character out of a single round of hops...

Cheers!

Ah, day_trippr! Awesome info. What kind of yeast are you using to get these results?

For my next beer, I'm planning on dry hopping at 35 degrees for 2 days (grinding them up first!). I've been thinking of what yeast to use. I really like 34/70 and US-05 due to how clean they are, but they are both so powdery and likely won't get completely out of the way before dry hopping. I was thinking of using S-04 since it flocs out really well.

 

[Jeroen79]

There are also some advantages dry hopping during fermentation:

Because yeast consumes the available oxygen during fermentation, dry hopping this way allows a brewer to avoid oxidizing the beer when she introduces the hops into solution. That said, the procedure can prove far more difficult than dry-hopping after the beer reaches its terminal gravity, no thanks to two realities of carbon dioxide. The first: the CO2 created by fermentation can strip away those desired volatile compounds. The second: the dreaded geyser (AKA “beer volcano”) – a wet, gassy eruption that can occur when too many CO2 bubbles cluster into nucleation sites in the hop particles and burst out of the tank.

 

[day_trippr]

Ah, day_trippr! Awesome info. What kind of yeast are you using to get these results?

I use 1318 in my neipas and mostly 1056 but sometimes us-05 for my wcipas and all of the beers I've brewed with them this year have greatly benefitted from Janish's dry hop technique. I'm a fan for sure.

Also, fwiw, I have been pulverizing the hop pellets in a Cuisinart first, as I found dropping whole pellets into 50°F beer sends them straight to the bottom where they may lie greatly intact, requiring a swirl to break them up that I don't want to do as it also suspends the crashed yeast...

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

I use 1318 in my neipas and mostly 1056 but sometimes us-05 for my wcipas and all of the beers I've brewed with them this year have greatly benefitted from Janish's dry hop technique. I'm a fan for sure.

Also, fwiw, I have been pulverizing the hop pellets in a Cuisinart first, as I found dropping whole pellets into 50°F beer sends them straight to the bottom where they may lie greatly intact, requiring a swirl to break them up that I don't want to do as it also suspends the crashed yeast...

Cheers!

Do you cap the fermenter while dry hopping?

 

[day_trippr]

I ferment in carboys which as soon as they've been pitched and aerated go on a CO2-capture rig that purges the kegs that the beer ends up in. When I dry hop I momentarily pop the carboy bung, pour in the powdered hops, then immediate re-bung the carboy. And I do closed transfers to the purged kegs using pre-purged lines.

So, the only opportunity for air to get in with beer from pitch to first pour is those few seconds with the open neck - which I mitigate with 1 teaspoon of ascorbic acid dissolved in ~20ml of RO and shot into the purged kegs via a QD atop the gas post before filling. This has been working amazingly well - the first neipa of 2023 was kegged the end of February, tapped two weeks later, and was ridden well into June before it kicked, and it never lost a bit of hoppy character. Totally sold me on the Vitamin C as an antioxidant for kegging - I highly recommend it!

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

I ferment in carboys which as soon as they've been pitched and aerated go on a CO2-capture rig that purges the kegs that the beer ends up in. When I dry hop I momentarily pop the carboy bung, pour in the powdered hops, then immediate re-bung the carboy. And I do closed transfers to the purged kegs using pre-purged lines.

So, the only opportunity for air to get in with beer from pitch to first pour is those few seconds with the open neck - which I mitigate with 1 teaspoon of ascorbic acid dissolved in ~20ml of RO and shot into the purged kegs via a QD atop the gas post before filling. This has been working amazingly well - the first neipa of 2023 was kegged the end of February, tapped two weeks later, and was ridden well into June before it kicked, and it never lost a bit of hoppy character. Totally sold me on the Vitamin C as an antioxidant for kegging - I highly recommend it!

Cheers!

That's interesting that you're using ascorbic acid and it's improving shelf life. I've seen it recommended on the "'Northeast' style IPA" thread here on HBT. I've heard that it should actually be combined with Potassium Metabisulfite (Campden) or else it can turn into an oxidizer. Campden is supposedly a better antioxidant than ascorbic acid and Janish recommended adding 0.2 grams/5 gallons of it to the dry hop. I'm planning to try it with my next beer.

 

[day_trippr]

I have read too many instances of residual sulfer notes to want to deal with campden tabs unless necessary, and so far there's no indication I need to.

The proof is in the longevity I enjoy every day, and with four neipas on tap that is hella important...

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

I have read too many instances of residual sulfer notes to want to deal with campden tabs unless necessary, and so far there's no indication I need to.

The proof is in the longevity I enjoy every day, and with four neipas on tap that is hella important...

Cheers!

Sulfur would be pretty bad in a beer. I imagine that 0.2 grams/5 gallons of Campden would be low enough, but I haven't tried it. I've also only read about that ascorbic acid problem and I know that information can be wrong or irrelevant to a given scenario. If you're getting good results with ascorbic acid alone, then you'd best keep using it!

Edit:
After more research (neverending research! ), it sounds like the possibility of ascorbic acid being an oxidizer isn't worth worrying about. It seems to work for just about everyone that has used it. I'll try adding 1 tsp of ascorbic acid to the dry hop instead of Campden. It sounds like it might also be worth adding to the mash. Anyone know if adding 1 tsp to the mash and 1 tsp to the dry hop would be too much in 5 gallons?

 

[rootAndBoom]

I routinely add 2g AA to the mash and 1g to the keg at packaging with only positive effect. I haven't bothered at dry hop.

One note: adding it to the mash does affect mash ph and Brewfather at least doesn't seem to take it into account for calculating mash ph. I plan on a decrease of around 0.15 for my volumes and amount.

 

[DBhomebrew]

One note: adding it to the mash does affect mash ph and Brewfather at least doesn't seem to take it into account for calculating mash ph. I plan on a decrease of around 0.15 for my volumes and amount.

@VikeMan advised me on this here...

1g AA ~= 1/2ml 88% lactic

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/brewcipher-7-up-for-download.698900/#post-10269920

 

[CyberFox]

I routinely add 2g AA to the mash and 1g to the keg at packaging with only positive effect. I haven't bothered at dry hop.

One note: adding it to the mash does affect mash ph and Brewfather at least doesn't seem to take it into account for calculating mash ph. I plan on a decrease of around 0.15 for my volumes and amount.

Good point about it affecting the mash pH. Genus Brewing said not to worry about it, but it's probably worth taking into consideration. Sounds like most use a total of 3-5 grams, or 1 tsp, per 5 gallon batch. I imagine I'll just add it during dry hop since that's the only time I open the fermenter and I do a closed transfer to a fully purged keg. That way I won't have to worry about adjusting mash pH.

Some brewers have acted like adding antioxidants is a crutch that's used to remedy a poor oxygen mitigation process. Whether your process is adequate or not, adding ascorbic acid can't hurt either way. It just adds extra assurance for making the best possible beer.

 

[scogan]

I routinely use citric acid to hit my mash pH. I add 1g/5L , it drops my mash pH by about 0.2 I think,though presume this drop would depend on the bicarbonate ( buffering capacity ) of your water.

 

[stealthfixr]

Just started experimenting with a homemade antiox blend (45% AA, 45% SMB, 10% Brewtan-B) in my mash, and this thread explained to me why I missed my mash pH by a good amount last batch. Of course the AA lowers the pH.

Wish Brewfather took this into account.

 

[OzzyPeeps]

Subscribing ...