Hop question, combine all grain + DME wort

[Michael_Calgary]

Hi all,

I am setup for 5 gallon all grain batches. I have a 10 gallon electric brew kettle and a 10 gal "igloo" Mash tun.

I have a question though. I was wanting to do some 10 gallon batches, but my equipment is not big enough for (full) 10 gallon batches. Because I don't want to do two all grain batches in one day.. specifically for time restraints, what I want to do is mix up 5 gallons of DME wort, boil it for a short time to (hopefully) make sure it is somewhat sanitized, then do a normal 5 gallon all grain recipe and combine the two.

What I would like to know is:

Can I just double my hop additions in the all grain so that after I add that to 5 gallons of un-hopped DME wort, my IBU's and taste/aroma etc, will still be the same?

Thx!

 

[Addiktion]

I’m not an expert on this but when I make my yeast starter I generally decant most my DME wort although you don’t have to unless you want to. I get rid of most of it because that’s what I was taught. However on the scale of 5 gallons of DME that might drastically change taste. If you wanted two beers out of it you could split the wort into 2.5 gallon batches (same beer different fermenters) and pitch two different yeast strains and that will produce drastically different tasting beer. I’m in your boat as well. I have a 5G capacity electric brewery and all I could think is do back to back brews which I haven’t done yet. I always have an empty keg because I drink one before I brew a second time hahaha.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

I’m not an expert on this but when I make my yeast starter I generally decant most my DME wort although you don’t have to unless you want to. I get rid of most of it because that’s what I was taught. However on the scale of 5 gallons of DME that might drastically change taste. If you wanted two beers out of it you could split the wort into 2.5 gallon batches (same beer different fermenters) and pitch two different yeast strains and that will produce drastically different tasting beer. I’m in your boat as well. I have a 5G capacity electric brewery and all I could think is do back to back brews which I haven’t done yet. I always have an empty keg because I drink one before I brew a second time hahaha.

I was more thinking to make One 10 gallon batch though. My thought process is that I read about guys that make all DME beer. It would be fairly quick to make a 5 gallon batch of DME, put it aside, then do a full 5 gallon all grain batch and then mix the two to get 10 gallons in the primary. I just don't know if "doubling" my hop additions would work.

 

[TechFanMD]

This is a pretty interesting concept - I'm sure it can be done. I hope you get an answer, as I could pull this off as well. The main issue as far as I can tell is hop utilization - I don't think it is as simple as just doubling up the hops. Maybe doing a slightly longer boil with the DME and doing some hop boiling there as well.

Let's hope someone with experience and understanding of how the SG of the wort affects the hop utilization.

 

[BrewInspector]

This doesn't sound much different from what many do with the same size constraints. Some (and I) have mashed a 5+ gallon (as much as you can manage with your equipment) batch using grain sufficient for a 10 gallon batch then topped up with sufficient water post boil in the fermenter(s). I have also done the same mash and then topped up pre-boil for back to back brews with different hop additions.

It (your version) will work but I'm sure someone will tell us if the end result will have a variation in flavor profile from a full single boil version. I suspect there will be a difference but the question is whether you will notice or care. Assuming you will be fermenting in two separate containers I would think the mix may also vary in each slightly.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I just don't know if "doubling" my hop additions would work.

This, from Beer and Wine Journal (http://beerandwinejournal.com/bitter-extract/) may be applicable:

... If you boil 2.5 gallons (9.5 L) of wort in order to make a 5.0-gallon (19-L) batch, the boiled wort needs to have twice the IBUs as you intend your beer to have. For example, if you want to brew 5.0 gallons (19 L) of IPA at 70 IBU, and you end up with 2.5 gallons (9.5 L) of post-boil wort, that wort needs to be 140 IBU. And, the solubility of iso-alpha acids is such that the maximum IBUs a beer can have is in the 70 to 100 range. (The IBU rating on most commercial IPAs and double IPAs comes from a calculation, not a measurement.)

 

[Yooper]

The only difference would be the hops utilization. You would want to put half the hops in one, half the hops in the other.

The reason has to do with dilution. What I mean is that the MOST IBUs you could even get into a wort would be less than 50. That's because even if you added many ounces of hops for bittering, the maximum amount of isomerization is about 100 IBUs (actually less, but in theory it could be as high as 100). The saturation point for the isomerization of hops oils has a ceiling. Even a beer like Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to 100+ IBUs has been measured by a lab at something like 80 or 85 IBUs.

Anyway, even if you did that, you'd have a max of 100 IBUs in the 5 gallon batch. Then, if you diluted it with the DME wort by 50%, you'd immediately cut the IBUs in half. Since you wouldn't likely get near 100 IBUs, more like 80, you'd have no more than 40 IBUs. Not a problem if you're making a malty beer, but something to consider.

What I would do is formulate the recipe as a partial mash in some software, and make the hopped boil as large as possible. If you could boil 7 or 8 gallons, then top up with 3 gallons at the end, it would definitely improve the hops utilization.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Agree with Yooper...make your all grain batch as large as possible, add the DME at end of boil and top up your fermenter to make 10 gallons...easy peasy

Another method would be to brew 2 five gallon batches 2 days in a row.

Brew the first five and pitch yeast, then within say 24 hours brew the second five gallons and add to the first.

This is known as the “Texas two step” lol
It works

 

[Addiktion]

I like the Texas two step. I think I’ll try that. Maybe make two different starters and pitch two yeast strains and I’m off to the races.

If you have success with the DME let me know. I hate that I’m restricted to 5 gallons but that’s the cards I was dealt and I’ve put to much money into my kettles/brewery to start over.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

The only difference would be the hops utilization. You would want to put half the hops in one, half the hops in the other.

The reason has to do with dilution. What I mean is that the MOST IBUs you could even get into a wort would be less than 50. That's because even if you added many ounces of hops for bittering, the maximum amount of isomerization is about 100 IBUs (actually less, but in theory it could be as high as 100). The saturation point for the isomerization of hops oils has a ceiling. Even a beer like Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to 100+ IBUs has been measured by a lab at something like 80 or 85 IBUs.

Anyway, even if you did that, you'd have a max of 100 IBUs in the 5 gallon batch. Then, if you diluted it with the DME wort by 50%, you'd immediately cut the IBUs in half. Since you wouldn't likely get near 100 IBUs, more like 80, you'd have no more than 40 IBUs. Not a problem if you're making a malty beer, but something to consider.

What I would do is formulate the recipe as a partial mash in some software, and make the hopped boil as large as possible. If you could boil 7 or 8 gallons, then top up with 3 gallons at the end, it would definitely improve the hops utilization.

Ok.. How about this. I start my all grain day... once the kettle is clear of strike water, (so I am mashing...) I make up 5 gallons (or slightly more) of DME in my kettle. Then, I take about 2 gallons or so, and put it in a large kitchen pot over my induction heater and bring it to a boil and add half my hops for say 30 mins or so? Then combine that hopped DME wort with the left over unhopped DME wort. Meanwhile I can finish the all grain mash, sparge, do the boil, (add hops, crash cool etc) and then mix my all grain with the DME, add to primary and pitch! Whew!

Is my logic flawed?

 

[Addiktion]

I say do it and report back he research and development findings.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

I say do it and report back he research and development findings.

Right!! my brew days are right around 4 hours including clean up. I do no-sparge mash now. So basically I can fill the "wait" times with making DME. I suspect it won't add too much time to my day.

 

[Yooper]

Ok.. How about this. I start my all grain day... once the kettle is clear of strike water, (so I am mashing...) I make up 5 gallons (or slightly more) of DME in my kettle. Then, I take about 2 gallons or so, and put it in a large kitchen pot over my induction heater and bring it to a boil and add half my hops for say 30 mins or so? Then combine that hopped DME wort with the left over unhopped DME wort. Meanwhile I can finish the all grain mash, sparge, do the boil, (add hops, crash cool etc) and then mix my all grain with the DME, add to primary and pitch! Whew!

Is my logic flawed?

Well, with half the hops in 2 gallons, you'd still be diluting that batch by more than 50%, so you would get very little utilization and with a 30 minute boil it'd even be much lower. It'd be better than 0 hops, of course, but you'd have to run the numbers through some software to see what short of IBUs you'd get with those 2 gallons boiled. What's your boil off rate? If it's like mine (a gallon an hour), you'd have very little hopped wort to start with, and it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

Well, with half the hops in 2 gallons, you'd still be diluting that batch by more than 50%, so you would get very little utilization and with a 30 minute boil it'd even be much lower. It'd be better than 0 hops, of course, but you'd have to run the numbers through some software to see what short of IBUs you'd get with those 2 gallons boiled. What's your boil off rate? If it's like mine (a gallon an hour), you'd have very little hopped wort to start with, and it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble.

Ok how about this... I double my bittering hops in the all grain, do a DME hop boil of 2.5 gallons for 30 mins. (or however long I have time for while mashing the all grain... could be longer than 30) In the left over (unboiled DME) I add some flavor hops while it is still hot. (kind of like a whirlpool hop addition) I guess I am attempting to have "SOME" kind of hop profile in the DME wort so I am not diluting the all grain hop profile too much. All I am really looking to do here is make a decent drinkable "daily driver". I don't need anything heavy on hops. I like to experiment with recipes... but I HATE running out of just plain old run of the mill beer.

 

[FatDragon]

Note that I got antsy and wrote this before reading the last 5-6 responses, so you might already be here by now.

My method might work for you: I do a high gravity mash like I'm making a barleywine or imperial stout or something, boil it like normal, and then split into two 5.5 gallon batches, topping off with clean water to reach my volume. The IBU saturation limit still applies, but you're free to boil more than 5 gallons - I often end up with 6.5-7 gallons of post-boil wort in my 9 gallon kettle so you could definitely have eight gallons of boiled wort. I do other things along the way to differentiate each half of the batch - different ratios of wort to top-off water, different cold-side additions, pulling half of the wort before adding whirlpool hops, even doing a separate mini-mash to add roasted grains to one half for a pale-and-porter split batch - but there's no reason you couldn't make both halves of a batch like this identical. If you need higher gravity than you can mash in that volume you could, of course, add DME straight to your kettle wort rather than boiling a separate batch of it as well. One nice bonus is that I'm able to chill my top-off water in the fridge so I only really have to chill the kettle wort to the mid-twenties celsius to hit my ~16C pitch temps.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

Note that I got antsy and wrote this before reading the last 5-6 responses, so you might already be here by now.

My method might work for you: I do a high gravity mash like I'm making a barleywine or imperial stout or something, boil it like normal, and then split into two 5.5 gallon batches, topping off with clean water to reach my volume. The IBU saturation limit still applies, but you're free to boil more than 5 gallons - I often end up with 6.5-7 gallons of post-boil wort in my 9 gallon kettle so you could definitely have eight gallons of boiled wort. I do other things along the way to differentiate each half of the batch - different ratios of wort to top-off water, different cold-side additions, pulling half of the wort before adding whirlpool hops, even doing a separate mini-mash to add roasted grains to one half for a pale-and-porter split batch - but there's no reason you couldn't make both halves of a batch like this identical. If you need higher gravity than you can mash in that volume you could, of course, add DME straight to your kettle wort rather than boiling a separate batch of it as well. One nice bonus is that I'm able to chill my top-off water in the fridge so I only really have to chill the kettle wort to the mid-twenties celsius to hit my ~16C pitch temps.

Oh wait! So hold on a sec here... So I could mash say 15 pounds (or whatever I could stuff into my mash tun) or so of grain using the batch sparge method, basically this would yield enough wort to practically fill my 10 gallon kettle, do the boil, hop additions etc, then I could top off with water for my 10+ gallon ferment volume? and I could add some DME at the end if my SG was not quite high enough?

 

[ong]

Oh wait! So hold on a sec here... So I could mash say 15 pounds (or whatever I could stuff into my mash tun) or so of grain using the batch sparge method, basically this would yield enough wort to practically fill my 10 gallon kettle, do the boil, hop additions etc, then I could top off with water for my 10+ gallon ferment volume? and I could add some DME at the end if my SG was not quite high enough?

I’ve made 10 gallon BIAB batches in my 10.5 gallon kettle doing basically this — mash as much grain as I can fit, then dunk sparge the bag in a separate pot while bringing the main kettle to a boil. I keep the boil kettle volume a couple inches from the top, and top off with boiling sparge water or just boiling water when that’s all been added. I calculate my target OG based on some planned dilution, and add LME to reach that target. So ultimately I collect about 8-9 gallons of slightly strong wort and top off with plain water to my target volume in the fermenter. This way hop utilization is only ~20% lower than a full volume boil, and I get to do math while brewing.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

I’ve made 10 gallon BIAB batches in my 10.5 gallon kettle doing basically this — mash as much grain as I can fit, then dunk sparge the bag in a separate pot while bringing the main kettle to a boil. I keep the boil kettle volume a couple inches from the top, and top off with boiling sparge water or just boiling water when that’s all been added. I calculate my target OG based on some planned dilution, and add LME to reach that target. So ultimately I collect about 8-9 gallons of slightly strong wort and top off with plain water to my target volume in the fermenter. This way hop utilization is only ~20% lower than a full volume boil, and I get to do math while brewing.

Oh interesting! So I found this site:
http://www.brewunited.com/view_page.php?pageid=1
It states that my mash tun can hold 24 pounds of grain. My Centennial Ale recipe is 8#12oz of grain. So I can easily double this recipe. If I go back to doing batch sparge, (right now I do no-sparge mash with full boil volume in the mash tun) I should be able to easily fill my kettle to capacity AND still have some sparged wort left over to top off to 10 gal after (or during) the boil! No screwing around with DME or mixing batches etc.

I am going to give a shot.

 

[FatDragon]

Oh wait! So hold on a sec here... So I could mash say 15 pounds (or whatever I could stuff into my mash tun) or so of grain using the batch sparge method, basically this would yield enough wort to practically fill my 10 gallon kettle, do the boil, hop additions etc, then I could top off with water for my 10+ gallon ferment volume? and I could add some DME at the end if my SG was not quite high enough?

Yep. Of course, you could do the same thing without sparging as well, but you'd probably need to add a bit more extract or accept a slightly lower OG for your beers. I figure since I'm going want a pretty full kettle when I boil, I might as well sparge the water that replaces what the grains displaced and get a bit more of the sugar out of the grains.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

OK, so I doubled my recipe, mashed in, pulled the first running off and then sparged with around 8 gallons of water. (17 pounds of grain sure likes to keep a lot of sparge water behind!!!) I filled my kettle to the top and started the boil. I added more 2nd runnings slowly to the pot during the boil and then the remainder of the 2nd runnings to the fermenter after crash cooling. I got just over 10.5 gallons in the primary. SG was a bit lower than it should be... but I'll still have beer over 5%. Good enough for me! It didn't add too much time to my brew day! (well evening in this case. lol) I like to taste the post boil wort from the gravity sample I take. It was nice and sweet and hoppy... tasted exactly like when I only make 5 gallons of this recipe.

 

[FatDragon]

OK, so I doubled my recipe, mashed in, pulled the first running off and then sparged with around 8 gallons of water. (17 pounds of grain sure likes to keep a lot of sparge water behind!!!) I filled my kettle to the top and started the boil. I added more 2nd runnings slowly to the pot during the boil and then the remainder of the 2nd runnings to the fermenter after crash cooling. I got just over 10.5 gallons in the primary. SG was a bit lower than it should be... but I'll still have beer over 5%. Good enough for me! It didn't add too much time to my brew day! (well evening in this case. lol) I like to taste the post boil wort from the gravity sample I take. It was nice and sweet and hoppy... tasted exactly like when I only make 5 gallons of this recipe.

I add second runnings during the boil (or typically the run-up to the boil, since my stove takes a while) as well, but you did boil those final second runnings, right? If you didn't, you might have just made your first sour IPA... Then again, you could consult with some no-boil brewers who might have a better idea about whether or not any lacto would have survived your sparge and would be able to culture in a hoppy wort like that even if it did.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

I add second runnings during the boil (or typically the run-up to the boil, since my stove takes a while) as well, but you did boil those final second runnings, right? If you didn't, you might have just made your first sour IPA... Then again, you could consult with some no-boil brewers who might have a better idea about whether or not any lacto would have survived your sparge and would be able to culture in a hoppy wort like that even if it did.

Hmmm.. interesting about lacto bacteria. I didn't even know it was present in a mash. Anyway, I sparged at 168f for 10 mins. According to some info I just read, this temp is above the survival rate of lacto bacteria. My unboiled wort didn't sit around for too long. I am thinking I should be alright... but time will tell!

 

[Michael_Calgary]

well ok. So here is the final result in case anybody was following. So the beer has been in my Keezer since primary fermentation was done. basically 3 weeks. It does have an "odd" flavour. Not horrible... but not good. I have opted to dump it. So I am going to add this to the "experience" pile and remember to never dump unboiled wort in my primary ever again! lol Live and learn!

 

[RM-MN]

well ok. So here is the final result in case anybody was following. So the beer has been in my Keezer since primary fermentation was done. basically 3 weeks. It does have an "odd" flavour. Not horrible... but not good. I have opted to dump it. So I am going to add this to the "experience" pile and remember to never dump unboiled wort in my primary ever again! lol Live and learn!

Since you already have time and money invested in this, take the beer out of the keezer and let it sit at room temp for a week, then chill it again and see if you still have the off flavor.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

Since you already have time and money invested in this, take the beer out of the keezer and let it sit at room temp for a week, then chill it again and see if you still have the off flavor.

Oh ok. Yes, I suppose another week or so is better than just dumping it now.