Homemade PBW Recipe

[BrionLax]

I am going to need to refill my stock in the near future. Anyone in the southern Ontario area interested in splitting a large batch? I am looking at a mixture of 70/30 percarbonate/metasilicate with a bit of the EDTA because of how hard my water is(the original recipe has too much foam and residue on my brewery).

I found a source (http://prosupplyoutlet.com/) that has all three items available and cheaper than amazon. They start in 1lb packages but obviously get cheaper with volume. I can get shipped to my PO Box in Niagara Falls, NY for about $75 USD that will make about 27 pounds of the mixture.

If anyone is interested, shoot me a PM and we can work something out.

Cheers

 

[divrack]

So mixed up the chemicals. Seems to be good using straight percarb, metasillicate and tetra edta.
Meta was pentahydrate form.

Side note is that I saw some pbw in a lhbs and it still contains phosphate here in the UK.
Who knew our environment boys were even worse than the epa!

 

[divrack]

So mixed up the chemicals. Seems to be good using straight percarb, metasillicate and tetra edta.
Meta was pentahydrate form.

Side note is that I saw some pbw in a lhbs and it still contains phosphate here in the UK.
Who knew our environment boys were even worse than the epa!

Now who in the UK wants to buy an absurd amount of pbw of me??

 

[RPh_Guy]

@divrack @BrionLax @S-Met @TexasWine

This working well for you guys?

By weight approx:
74% sodium percarbonate
23% sodium metasilicate pentahydrate
3% tetrasodium EDTA

Any tips for purchasing, mixing, storage? Thanks!

 

[divrack]

@divrack @BrionLax @S-Met @TexasWine

This working well for you guys?

By weight approx:
74% sodium percarbonate
23% sodium metasilicate pentahydrate
3% tetrasodium EDTA

Any tips for purchasing, mixing, storage? Thanks!

No it seems all good. I got the ingredients off Amazon and eBay, but I'm in rural scotland. Ended up getting loads.
I've been thinking of adding a surfectant though as there isn't anything doing that job as far as I understand (but much). Pbw here is still listed as containing phosphates at less than 5 percent and surfectant at less than 5 percent.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've been thinking of adding a surfectant

From the patent:

Preferred nonionic surfactants include octylphenoxy-polyethoxy-ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON X-100), nonyl phenoxy ethyleneoxy ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark IGEPAL CO730), pol,234yoxy ethoxylated ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark RENEX ZO), glycol fatty esters (e.g., sold under the trademark HALLCO-376-N), fatty acid alkylanolamid (e.g., sold under the trademark ALKAMIDE 2110), cetyldimethyl amine oxide (e.g., sold under the trademark AMMONYX CO), aliphatic polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark ANTAROX LF-344), polyethylenated alkyl glycol amide (e.g., sold under the trademark ANTAROX G-200), fatty alcohol polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark AROSURE 63-PE-16), polyoxyethylene sorbitol esters of mixed fatty and resin acids (e.g., sold under the trademark ATLAS G-1234), modified oxyethylated straight-chain alcohol (e.g., sold under the trademark RENEX 648), modified oxyethoxylated straight-chain alcohols (e.g. sold under the trademark PLURAFACRA,ZO), alkylaryl polyether (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON CF10), trifunctional polyoxyalkylene glycols (e.g., sold under the trademark PLURADOT HA-410), diethylene glycol dioleate, polyethylene glycol recinaleate, polyethylene glycol dioleate, tridecyl alcohol, nonylphenol, and ethylene oxide condensation products that are based on propylene oxide-propylene glycol (e.g., sold under the trademark PLURONIC L-61). Preferred anionic, surfactants include ethoxylated (3 moles) phosphate ester (e.g., sold under the trademark TRITON QS-44), sodium sulfate of 2 ethyl-a-hexanol (e.g., sold under the trademark TERGITOL 08), sodium petroleum sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark PETRONATE K), sodium alkyl naphthahalene sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark PETRO AR, SELLOGEN K, NEKAL BX-78, ALKANOL B), dioctyl ester of sodium sulfosuccinic acid (e.g., sold under the trademark ABRESOL OT), sodium alkylaryl sulfonate (e.g., sold under the trademark AHCOWETANS), sodium salt of sulfated alkylphenoxy poly(ethyleneoxy) ethanol (e.g., sold under the trademark ALIPAL EO-526), sodium methyl n-oleyl-taurate (e.g., sold under the trademark AMATER G T), alkyl polyphosphate (e.g., sold under the trademark ATCOWET C2), sodium lauryl sulfate (e.g., sold under the trademark AVIROL 101), sodium N-methyl-N-tall oil acid taurate (e.g., sold under the trademark IGEPON TK-32), lauric alkyloamine condensate (e.g., sold under the trademark NOPCOGEN 14-L), fatty alcohol sulfate modified (e.g. sold under the trademark RICHOLOL 4940) and modified diethanolamides of fatty acids (e.g., sold under the trademark SHERCOMID). Preferred amphoteric surfactants include disodium N-tallow betamino dipropionate (e.g., sold under the trademark DERIPHATE 154), sodium derivative of dicarboxylic caprylic acid (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL J2M, letithin (e.g., sold under the trademark CENTROL CA, LA), lauryl ampholytic (syndet) (e.g., sold under the trademark SCHERCOTERIC BASE 156), carboxylic acid derivatives of substituted imidazolines (e.g., sold under the trademark MONATERIC), complex coco betaine (e.g., sold under the trademark CARSONAM 3 AND 3147), fatty sulfobetaine (e.g., sold under the trademark LONZAINE CS), dicarboxylic coconut derivative triethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL TEA), dicarboxylic octoic derivative sodium salt (e.g. sold under the trademark MIRANOL JEM), dicarboxylic myristic derivative diethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-DEM), dicarboxylic myristic derivative monoethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-MEA), dicarboxylic myristic derivative sodium salt (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL M2M-SF), dicarboxylic captic derivative diethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL S2M-DEA), and dicarboxylic capric derivative triethanolamine (e.g., sold under the trademark MIRANOL S2M-TEA). Preferably, the cleaning composition contains from about 0 to about 8% by weight, and more preferably from about 0.5 to about 6% by weight of the surfactant.

There are a couple possible choices. You have a dart board?

 

[S-Met]

Mix of online and local. EDTA4Na on Amazon. I had the oxi and tsp already. When its time to remix, price (including shipping) will determine what ingredients I order. The EDTA4Na will last a couple years, depending on other uses.

Mixed up a 12lb batch in a 5gal bucket. Used a drill and a non-metal paint mixing paddle.

I am storing it in a 2gal bucket with a lid and a screw-top canister thats just a little larger than a lme canister. I think I got them from morebeer. https://www.morebeer.com/products/1-gallon-plastic-jar-110-mm-wide-mouth-lid.html

 

[divrack]

From the patent:

There are a couple possible choices. You have a dart board?

No, I have a couple in a shopping cart. Can't remember what.

 

[DrGMG]

I've been using this with success for kettles and fermenters, for months now. Can this also be used to clean the keg lines? Also, does the water need to be hot to use this?

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Just like PBW, it works better with hot water.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I read in a fortune cookie once that warm water is better than hot so the peroxide doesn't break down too quickly.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The EDTA4Na will last a couple years, depending on other uses.

Other uses for a chelate? I guess some people are into metallic bondage.

I did some number crunching.
I can get PBW for $6/lb for 4lbs OR
I can get PBW for $3.44/lb for 50lbs
This percarbonate/metasilicate/EDTA I can make for $2.27/lb about 34lbs at a time.
If I use percarbonate alone, that's only $1.88/lb for 25lbs OR $2.35/lb for 10lbs.

Interestingly, Straight A, B-Brite, One Step, and Alkaline Brewery Wash were all more expensive by weight than the bulk PBW. What a rip-off! Bleach, dish soap, or any other nonsense are out of the question.

Adding individual surfactant and/or gelling agents to the homemade formulation would increase the cost (and it's not AS good as PBW without them, presumably).

I'm kind of on the fence about what to get. I soak my plastic fermenters after each use and the rest of my cold side equipment after every couple uses. However mostly I currently use it for de-labeling and cleaning bottles; maybe it's overkill for that purpose.

Thoughts?

 

[S-Met]

read in a fortune cookie once that warm water is better than hot so the peroxide doesn't break down too quickly.

worst chinese restaurant ever...MSG for certain.

Other uses for a chelate? I guess some people are into metallic bondage.

wife's hobby is making skin/hair care and cosmetic products.

And yes, into metallic bondage, I could not do my job without it. Chelation of otherwise toxic molecules lets me do amazing things. Couple that with Hydrogen protons and a steady stream of focused electrons and I've got tools to change your life.

 

[MaxStout]

I'm kind of on the fence about what to get. I soak my plastic fermenters after each use and the rest of my cold side equipment after every couple uses. However mostly I currently use it for de-labeling and cleaning bottles; maybe it's overkill for that purpose.

Thoughts?

I've found that just Oxiclean (or whatever generic equiv.) is plenty effective for removing labels. PBW clone would be overkill for labels, but if that's what you have on hand, that works. You don't need much, anyway. A half tablespoon in a gallon of water makes labels drop off the bottles overnight.

 

[TxBigHops]

I've found that just Oxiclean (or whatever generic equiv.) is plenty effective for removing labels. PBW clone would be overkill for labels, but if that's what you have on hand, that works. You don't need much, anyway. A half tablespoon in a gallon of water makes labels drop off the bottles overnight.

I think this is dependent on which brewery the bottles came from. I've had some drop right off, while others won't budge even after a 24 hour soak in Oxyclean. I'm hoping this PBW recipe will help with the tougher ones.

So I've read the first 40 posts, and the last 30. Can anybody point me to the post with the most current recipe y'all are using? Thanks!

 

[soccerdad]

You will do just fine with 2/3 generic unscented oxy (Kroger, etc) and 1/3 either TSP or TSP 90 .. In My Not So Humble Opinion

 

[MaxStout]

You will do just fine with 2/3 generic unscented oxy (Kroger, etc) and 1/3 either TSP or TSP 90 .. In My Not So Humble Opinion

That's the version I've used. Cheap, effective.

 

[b-boy]

Yep - works for me as well. I use the real Oxiclean free though.

 

[RPh_Guy]

People seem happy with just percarbonate, or percarbonate with metasilicate, but PBW has other stuff that makes it more effective (chelate, surfactant, gelling agent).

I decided to order the pure percarbonate (better and cheaper than OxiClean/generics). I'll give it a try by itself.
If it needs more oomph, I can just try using more or add the other ingredients later.

 

[piojo]

And yes, into metallic bondage, I could not do my job without it. Chelation of otherwise toxic molecules lets me do amazing things. Couple that with Hydrogen protons and a steady stream of focused electrons and I've got tools to change your life.

Are you talking about electron beam welding? How do you use chelates in that?

 

[S-Met]

Are you talking about electron beam welding? How do you use chelates in that?

Not a welder. Though I have fused tungsten or molybdenum when we have had tubes arc.

 

[awoitte]

Amazon/Video claims not to use red devil tsp on glass.

Does this change because it is being diluted, or should it not be used in conjunction with the other two ingredients in glass carboys regardless?

 

[piojo]

Amazon/Video claims not to use red devil sodium silicate on glass.

Does this change because it is being diluted, or should it not be used in conjunction with the other two ingredients in glass carboys regardless?

(Corrected.)

I believe the sodium carbonate lowers the pH enough that the glass won't be etched to any significant degree. Either way, I wouldn't worry about it on bottles. I accidentally etched a table once while trying to make sodium silicate, but that was mostly visible just because it was a shiny black surface.

It's also recommended to wash with PBW at merely warm to hot temperatures, both for safety and to keep the H₂O₂ from degrading. These safer temperatures also greatly slow glass dissolution. (I would not boil glass in sodium carbonate, and definitely not in sodium silicate.)

 

[awoitte]

(Corrected.)

I believe the sodium carbonate lowers the pH enough that the glass won't be etched to any significant degree. Either way, I wouldn't worry about it on bottles. I accidentally etched a table once while trying to make sodium silicate, but that was mostly visible just because it was a shiny black surface.

It's also recommended to wash with PBW at merely warm to hot temperatures, both for safety and to keep the H₂O₂ from degrading. These safer temperatures also greatly slow glass dissolution. (I would not boil glass in sodium carbonate, and definitely not in sodium silicate.)

Not sure if this is what I'm asking, or a valid correction.

I'm not asking about sodium silicate, I'm asking about red devil tsp (the product) as mentioned several times in this thread. I'm not worried about bottles, as my original question was inquiring about glass carboys.

To reiterate my question, with the most recent mixture of the three ingredients, is it safe to use on glass carboys, or should I exclude Red Devil #0261 Tsp from my mixture? The glass may not be etched to a significant degree the first or second time, but I reuse carboys a lot as most do.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not sure if this is what I'm asking, or a valid correction.

I'm not asking about sodium silicate, I'm asking about red devil tsp (the product) as mentioned several times in this thread. I'm not worried about bottles, as my original question was inquiring about glass carboys.

To reiterate my question, with the most recent mixture of the three ingredients, is it safe to use on glass carboys, or should I exclude Red Devil #0261 Tsp from my mixture? The glass may not be etched to a significant degree the first or second time, but I reuse carboys a lot as most do.

Yes, it's fine.

FYI Red Devil TSP/90 is sodium metasilicate.

 

[piojo]

@awoitte If you are concerned about etching, there's another warning you need to know: don't leave anything soaking more than a day. Many of us have experienced a white mineral film that sticks to the things we've cleaned if we soaked for too long. It looks the same as etching. You won't get it off without a strong acid soak. It's possible that a strong chelating agent like EDTA can prevent this, but I haven't tried.

 

[awoitte]

@awoitte If you are concerned about etching, there's another warning you need to know: don't leave anything soaking more than a day. Many of us have experienced a white mineral film that sticks to the things we've cleaned if we soaked for too long. It looks the same as etching. You won't get it off without a strong acid soak. It's possible that a strong chelating agent like EDTA can prevent this, but I haven't tried.

Thanks for the heads up piojo. I'm far from a chemist, my ultimate goal is to find the strongest (most effective) manner in cleaning the gunk off all my brewing (and some other) equipment while at the same time causing no damage. The glass carboys are amongst some of the cheaper items I have that I need to make spotless, but on the flipside probably the most detrimental to personal safety if one were to fail while carrying/handling.

I appreciate the follow up, I'll continue to do more research as I look for the most updated/safest recipe for cleaning the brew equipment.

 

[jimdkc]

A note about SDS or MSDS forms... Anybody can write them...

There was a bogus MSDS form linked here a while back, I believe from Menard's, for Red Devil TSP/90 which stated that it consisted of Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Percarbonate (the same as most "oxy" cleaners). This lead some people to believe that TSP/90 had changed. TSP/90, as far as I can tell, has ALWAYS been 100% Sodium Metasilicate.

If you have any doubts about such a form, try to find the one from the manufacturer! Here is the MSDS from the manufacturer for TSP/90:

https://content.interlinebrands.com/product/document/10135/441505_SDS_E.pdf

Also regarding MSDS forms: While they are a good source of information, they do not list ALL the ingredients in a product. They only have to mention the hazardous ones. And to maintain corporate secret formulas, they usually give a pretty wide range on the percentages of the ingredients.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Or just skip the Red Devil and buy some generic sodium metasilicate at half the price.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Any luck figuring out a good/inexpensive surfactant?