Homebrew Con 2024 location?

[mashpaddled]

I think you're confusing the 2023 GABF with 2024.

2024 GABF is October 10-12 and so is 2024 Homebrew Con.

Oh you're right

 

[jdauria]

I understand the cost saving benefits, but to me, my one experience with GABF, is that everyone is just trying to drink as much beer as possible as fast as they can. Homebrew Con, at least we are learning in sessions while we drink! I am curious on the logistics of this too...will they use a second location to hold the classes since most of the convention center is set up for GABF? Will it be one combined ticket for sessions in the day and GABF at night? If so how expensive is that going to be? Will they eliminate club night and pro night? I don't care that it's more than a year away, the AHA should be telling us what the plan is now. What about the competition? With it in October, does that mean the regionals switch to July/August and we ship in summer heat? Or will they stay in March/April? Or will regionals be eliminated again? I could not go to Homebrew Con this year because already spent a lot on upcoming trip to Germany for Oktoberfest. If I go next year to Denver, it will probably be my last one.

 

[Bobby_M]

It would be interesting to see details of where the AHA spends money on HBC. The classes are given by volunteers. There is a ton of "free" homebrew beer. Do vendors pay a fee to be there? I only recall maybe one event with catered food. The attendance cost is not cheap and I am responsible for my food, housing and transportation costs. Clearly the venue is a big cost and it probably has been hard these past years to right size the venue for an unknown crowd size. Are there other big costs of HBC?

I was at this year's Con (and last year) and I spoke with some of the vendors who indicated it was VERY expensive for them to be a vendor.

I paid for a 10x10 booth in Grand Rapids and it was $3500. Given inflation, I'm guessing the same booth was $5-6k this year.

It seems to me, the venue and advertising are really the only major costs I could see for the AHA (they gave us breakfast a couple days and a taco buffet at club night this year fwiw).

The judges for NHC are volunteer, volunteers man the events, the speakers are volunteer, the beers at knockout are the B/C bottles from NHC etc.

Meanwhile, vendors apparently pay an exorbitant fee (and provide the freebie swag themselves), entries for NHC have skyrocketed to $29 a pop, tickets to the events are hundreds of dollars each...we even have to pay $30 for a tee shirt if we want one!

I'm not on the AHA board and never have, so this is all speculation based on the fact that I was involved in organizing smaller scale events for my previous corporate job. The facility usage fee is for sure the biggest cost. Meeting rooms, exhibit halls, paying BA staff, and then part of that contract also guarantees the associated hotel a certain number of sleeping rooms. If they are not occupied to a certain level, they have to pay additional out of pocket. A lot of facilities are also union shops, so they have to pay insane fees just to get extension cords plugged in. They pay for refrigerated trailers for the cellar staff to keep all the kegs cold.

The educational talks are volunteer, but they do get a comped conference passes.

I loved being in San Diego but found that Con overall was disappointing compared to last year. There were way less vendors, way less swag and the setup for club night and the kickoff party were poorly constructed as everyone was crammed into far too small a space.

and last year was a pathetic compared to preCOVID cons. I've been going since Oakland. Look at these numbers...

This will be my last Con, unless there are major changes. I have been to GABF and it draws a TON of people so the logistics of adding another event seems like it will make it a nightmare to maneuver (finding accommodation, flights, getting in and out of the event etc.)

I went to GABF once, primarily because I was already in town on business and a friend of mine comped me a ticket to the event. I basically just paid one hotel night out of pocket for the experience. I don't think I'd ever go if I had to pay all of it out of pocket. Of course, I'll consider when we all find out to what extent the Homebrewcon portion of it will retain its classic vibe, but I have my doubts. The main problem with Denver for life is that my very dedicated NJ homebrewclub is never going to be able to pour for club night again. It's one thing to sit out a couple years in a row, but you fly out to enjoy other clubs knowing that it will be our turn soon.

 

[day_trippr]

That 2013 peak looks about right for the entire home brewing phenomenon...

Cheers!

 

[Knightshade]

This was my first Homebrew Con, and having said that I enjoyed the experience. I’ve read what a lot of you have stated in this thread, and I have no basis of comparison.

Were there things that could have been done better? Absolutely. Have I seen worse, or been subjected to worse as an attendee? Absolutely.

There were quite a few first time attendees, at least by a show of hands in the first talk I was in. Was this due to proximity of the location in general, an increase in interest in homebrewing, a WTH it’s in San Diego so why not?, I have no idea.

I will say that I took 2 things away as they seemed to be recurring themes.

1 - Pittsburgh was a flop. I heard multiple accounts about the vendor area being tiny and not much energy at the event.

2 - AHA wants feedback. They want to make sure that all the talks are relevant, well received and of value.

IMO, but I felt like there was a certain level of frenetic’ness at the event, which fed into the high level of energy that I saw at the event. We need this to succeed, how can we do better, what are we missing, etc. etc.

A couple of things I take away from this thread.

If you attended and didn’t like the event, let them know. It doesn’t seem like they’re not receptive to hearing criticism.

If you decided to not attend, let them know why.

Take into account the nature of the economy, inflation, cost considerations, etc. E.g., they could have tried to host at the Grand Manchester Hyatt which is on the water next to the SD convention center, or at some random Motel 6, or somewhere in between like an…Embassy Suites maybe? What is actually important To You? The education, the vendors, the experience, all of the above?

Im going to try and attend next year’s event because I liked this year’s enough to go again. I’ve also never attended GABF, and I can’t go this year so maybe the timing will work out..IDK.

TL;DR Problem = Solution

If you see a problem, don’t pile on. Contribute towards providing a solution. I think in this case, as homebrewers, it is kind of our own thing to save ya?

 

[505-Brewer]

So, what does that do to the National Homebrew Competition?? Curious as to how that will be set up.

Yes. Will competition beers be due in late summer? Horrible time to be shipping entries. I’d prefer a single round competition. Doubt Id attend either but let’s see how it unfolds.

 

[hout17]

How many people showed up to San Diego this year? The homebrewcon website mentioned they expected 1200+ attendees? Considering how many people homebrew that's a sad expectation and it doesn't surprise me they are shifting gears to keep it going.

Edit: GABF attendence was 40k in 2022. This is down it was 60k in 2019. They also have a separate session for AHA and BA members.

Edit: This could give homebrewcon a lot of exposure they didn't have which would help to build it back up.

 

[madscientist451]

Having HomebrewCon as a side show to GABF may expose some of the 40,000 participants to homebrewing, so that's a good thing, right?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

1 - Pittsburgh was a flop. I heard multiple accounts about the vendor area being tiny and not much energy at the event.

Pittsburgh was my first NHC. It is going to be hard to get reliable metrics out of that year. COVID was still lingering with a camp of people still reluctant to attend in-person events and another camp of people that were turned off by the vaccine requirements. People said the vendor section was smaller than years past (was SD even smaller?). I felt there was a good array of vendors, I came home with a decent amount of free swag, and there were some pretty solid give aways (I did not win any of them). The venue seemed too big for the crowd, and I felt like I was constantly walking back and forth between large empty areas of the conference center, though a few of the sessions were standing room only.

From the pictures I saw from SD, it looked like the venue has more open areas where people could congregate and share beers. In Pittsburg, there was the convention center where you could not bring in alcohol and there were no places to hang out and share (outside of the organized events). I was not aware of any open areas in the hotels where people gathered with homebrews. This might be mostly related to different rules about alcohol and homebrew from state to state.

I would have liked to go this year, but adding the cost of a plane flight on top of the housing and conference costs was too much for me to justify. The cost of the conference is not cheap, but it is not that bad for a few days of entertainment, lots of beers to sample, solid educational sessions, and I am sure I came home with $150 in free stuff. I will have to wait and see details about next year.

I agree with @Bobby_M's comment about moving the conference around. I would be much more likely to attend a conference that was driving distance. It reduces the cost significantly, but also makes it much easier to bring along beers to share (for club night or other times). If it was always in Denver, it would likely shift to more of just a Colorado Homebrew Con...though smaller regional conferences don't sound like a terrible idea.

 

[madscientist451]

If it was always in Denver, it would likely shift to more of just a Colorado Homebrew Con...though smaller regional conferences don't sound like a terrible idea.

Smaller regional conferences sound like a good idea...keep the costs down and make it easy to attend.

 

[jdauria]

How many people showed up to San Diego this year? The homebrewcon website mentioned they expected 1200+ attendees? Considering how many people homebrew that's a sad expectation and it doesn't surprise me they are shifting gears to keep it going.

Edit: GABF attendence was 40k in 2022. This is down it was 60k in 2019. They also have a separate session for AHA and BA members.

Edit: This could give homebrewcon a lot of exposure they didn't have which would help to build it back up.

GABF allows you to buy tickets to just 1 session which helps, unlike HBC. HBC should let you buy each night separate if you want. I know they have "all access" and then the "social" only ticket. I also think GABF numbers could be overinflated as last time I went in 2017, we had tickets for Friday and Saturday nights...so how many of that 40K is double counting people who attended more than one session?

While a lot of people do homebrew, how many are actually AHA members? Plus you're talking flights to San Diego, hotel, $600+ for all access for 3 days and spending money. It's a big nut, especially if going from the East Coast.

 

[jdauria]

1 - Pittsburgh was a flop. I heard multiple accounts about the vendor area being tiny and not much energy at the event.

Not really a shock about Pittsburgh, I mean if you are thinking "craft beer" travel destinations, Pittsburgh does not make the top 10. I am sure there are some good breweries there, but if you look at prior locations, for the most part they were in known craft beer meccas. I'm counting Oakland as San Francisco. Providence in 2019 has good breweries in area, AHA really wanted to have that year in Boston, but hotel prices would have been through the roof, but it was close enough for people to make side trips to Trillium, Tree House and other Mass breweries.

 

[hout17]

I agree with @Bobby_M's comment about moving the conference around. I would be much more likely to attend a conference that was driving distance. It reduces the cost significantly, but also makes it much easier to bring along beers to share (for club night or other times). If it was always in Denver, it would likely shift to more of just a Colorado Homebrew Con...though smaller regional conferences don't sound like a terrible idea.

I think moving it around is great but you have to have more than 1200-1300 people show up.

Maybe they should focus on smaller city centers outside of major metro areas for their venues with cheaper accommodations.

Rent out a cheap warehouse with air conditioning for the conference it doesn't need to be the bees knees.

They have to figure out how to tap into the homebrewer population. It seems a negligible amount of homebrewers attend.

 

[Braufessor]

I'm guessing (and it is a guess) that there is a lot more expense to the logistics and even the "volunteers" than most people would think. Are there meals for the NHC judges? (I'm not saying there should not be.... there should.... but that means the 'volunteers' are not 'free.' Same with speakers?? Rooms/accomodations/meals? I'm also guessing there are plenty of people who speak/present/show up at HBC who are not 'free' as they are paid/compensated to draw in attendees. Setting up the con across the country in a new space every year has to require a lot of travel and recon by staff - rooms, meals, travel, etc. Having it in Denver, in the same spot at the same time every year would definitely greatly reduce a lot of the annual recon and preparation, as well as travel associated expense of putting it on.

 

[hout17]

GABF allows you to buy tickets to just 1 session which helps, unlike HBC. HBC should let you buy each night separate if you want. I know they have "all access" and then the "social" only ticket. I also think GABF numbers could be overinflated as last time I went in 2017, we had tickets for Friday and Saturday nights...so how many of that 40K is double counting people who attended more than one session?

If homebrewcon could even get 10-15% of the GABF attendance, even if numbers are off it would still be a huge shot in the arm.

I would've never considered San Diego considering all the costs and I have been wanting to attend one.

 

[jdauria]

If homebrewcon could even get 10-15% of the GABF attendance, even if numbers are off it would still be a huge shot in the arm.

I would've never considered San Diego considering all the costs. I have been wanting to attend it.

I hear you! Providence in 2019 was my first, as it was only 45 minutes away. Guys in my club did Baltimore and Grand Rapids ones before that and had fun. It was a blast and I walked about of there with suitcase full of swag, Was first one in New England in 28 years. Guys in my club were all pumped to make the trip to Nashville the following year, but well you know. Would have gone next year if it was in Midwest, but Denver, going to have to check out the cost and how it's going to work with it combine with GABF.

 

[hout17]

I hear you! Providence in 2019 was my first, as it was only 45 minutes away. Guys in my club did Baltimore and Grand Rapids ones before that and had fun. It was a blast and I walked about of there with suitcase full of swag, Was first one in New England in 28 years. Guys in my club were all pumped to make the trip to Nashville the following year, but well you know. Would have gone next year if it was in Midwest, but Denver, going to have to check out the cost and how it's going to work with it combine with GABF.

Yeah, unfortunately Denver has gotten pretty expensive.

 

[kingmatt]

Not really a shock about Pittsburgh, I mean if you are thinking "craft beer" travel destinations, Pittsburgh does not make the top 10. I am sure there are some good breweries there, but if you look at prior locations, for the most part they were in known craft beer meccas. I'm counting Oakland as San Francisco. Providence in 2019 has good breweries in area, AHA really wanted to have that year in Boston, but hotel prices would have been through the roof, but it was close enough for people to make side trips to Trillium, Tree House and other Mass breweries.

I was at the Pittsburgh Con last year and San Diego this year and I can tell you that the vendor portion was way better in Pittsburgh. There were more vendors and they gave away more/better stuff last year, compared to this year.

Yakima was giving away 8oz cans of hops all 3 days to whomever wanted them, this year you had to practically beg them for a couple ounces of CTZ or Cashmere hops.

 

[Drewch]

Smaller regional conferences sound like a good idea...keep the costs down and make it easy to attend.

The travel expense has always been the limfac for me; so smaller, cheaper, regional conferences sounds appealing to me. Sync them with the regional rounds of the NHC.

But I support the AHA moving to a more federalized system (HB clubs as AHA chapters or locals grouped into regions, etc.) in general to allow more legislative advocacy at the state level.

 

[Knightshade]

I was at the Pittsburgh Con last year and San Diego this year and I can tell you that the vendor portion was way better in Pittsburgh. There were more vendors and they gave away more/better stuff last year, compared to this year.

Yakima was giving away 8oz cans of hops all 3 days to whomever wanted them, this year you had to practically beg them for a couple ounces of CTZ or Cashmere hops.

YVH was selling their Fall and Winter hop boxes for $10. Mine totaled 88 ounces, 32 of which are Lupomax and BSG was giving away free hops all weekend like they were going out of style. Yakima Chief gave away quite a bit too, at least on Friday/Saturday.

Speaking to a couple of other comments. I believe that security is a MAJOR cost of the event on top of the venue. I was really surprised how many security personnel were posted and how diligent they were in checking for passes. Or at least, I got multiple asks and sideways glances…was borderline annoying.

Denver has been expensive for awhile now. I anticipate travel, hotel, etc., wouldn’t be any cheaper there than it was in San Diego. I spoke to one guy from a Aurora CO club (there were 2 pouring on club night) and he said they would be relieved to not have to haul all their equipment around for 1 year.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

how many are actually AHA members?

"AHA Membership in 2022 was 36,000."

-- AHA Governing Committee Meeting Summary: January 2023​

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

The travel expense has always been the limfac for me; so smaller, cheaper, regional conferences sounds appealing to me. Sync them with the regional rounds of the NHC.

But I support the AHA moving to a more federalized system (HB clubs as AHA chapters or locals grouped into regions, etc.) in general to allow more legislative advocacy at the state level.

Can't wait to use "limfac" in a meeting!

 

[kingmatt]

YVH was selling their Fall and Winter hop boxes for $10. Mine totaled 88 ounces, 32 of which are Lupomax and BSG was giving away free hops all weekend like they were going out of style. Yakima Chief gave away quite a bit too, at least on Friday/Saturday.

Speaking to a couple of other comments. I believe that security is a MAJOR cost of the event on top of the venue. I was really surprised how many security personnel were posted and how diligent they were in checking for passes. Or at least, I got multiple asks and sideways glances…was borderline annoying.

Denver has been expensive for awhile now. I anticipate travel, hotel, etc., wouldn’t be any cheaper there than it was in San Diego. I spoke to one guy from a Aurora CO club (there were 2 pouring on club night) and he said they would be relieved to not have to haul all their equipment around for 1 year.

I'm fine with what I got this year because I didn't want to have to lug a bunch of stuff back across the country.

That said, the vendor area was a significant downgrade from Pittsburgh (which apparently was a significant downgrade from pre-covid cons) and that part is a big draw for a lot of people.

Last year I ended up with over 100 ounces of free hops, 20+ packs of dry yeast, a 55lb sack of grain, a Cider kit, 5 pound cans of LME etc.

All this is not to say I didn't have a great time, it's just that receiving diminishing returns for higher cost isn't going to make me want to continue attending. To each their own though.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm fine with what I got this year because I didn't want to have to lug a bunch of stuff back across the country.

That said, the vendor area was a significant downgrade from Pittsburgh (which apparently was a significant downgrade from pre-covid cons) and that part is a big draw for a lot of people.

Last year I ended up with over 100 ounces of free hops, 20+ packs of dry yeast, a 55lb sack of grain, a Cider kit, 5 pound cans of LME etc.

All this is not to say I didn't have a great time, it's just that receiving diminishing returns for higher cost isn't going to make me want to continue attending. To each their own though.

Wow..that is quite the haul. This was my first time attending so I was still pretty happy going away with what I got.

Learned a lot, had a good time, met some cool people, drank a f* ton of commercial beer and homebrew. Planning on going next year. The biggest death of events is people not going, then everyone is left saying “I wish they still did <insert X> event, I miss going.”

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm guessing (and it is a guess) that there is a lot more expense to the logistics and even the "volunteers" than most people would think. Are there meals for the NHC judges? (I'm not saying there should not be.... there should.... but that means the 'volunteers' are not 'free.' Same with speakers?? Rooms/accomodations/meals? I'm also guessing there are plenty of people who speak/present/show up at HBC who are not 'free' as they are paid/compensated to draw in attendees. Setting up the con across the country in a new space every year has to require a lot of travel and recon by staff - rooms, meals, travel, etc. Having it in Denver, in the same spot at the same time every year would definitely greatly reduce a lot of the annual recon and preparation, as well as travel associated expense of putting it on.

There isn't a BJCP competition in the entire country that doesn't feed their judges breakfast and lunch. For $29 an entry, and the fact that the judges are spending a couple grand to attend, yes they are being fed but the competition entry fees are absolutely covering that. People that speak at the conference get a pass to the conference, a ~$300 value. The only caveat to your last few points is that it bakes in a continuous annual burden on people in the northeast to attend. I'll attend every conference when I have to spend $1000 in airfare for HALF of them and drive to the others. I'm not spending $2k a year to go to Denver.

 

[Bobby_M]

Regarding the idea of lowering overhead, etc.. I think this is really the long term solution. Look here at the conference over the years. Past Conferences - Homebrew Con

You can bet they had a security team of none at these, with probably 40 attendees.

Look at these big numbers... 200+ !!!

When homebrewing exploded and AHA was forced to upscale to serious venues, all the costs and administrative overhead became overwhelming. I don't know if they can even fathom how to back out of that mode of thinking right now. There was a time in the not so distant past that these conventions were bid on via local homebrewing communities. Basically regions of clubs would get together and audition/interview for having the conference in their towns. Here's a facility that can handle the crowd, here's two hotels that agreed to bulk rates of XX. Here's the beer culture that will bring the crowds. Those same club members vowed to break their backs running the thing, volunteering for everything including cellaring to pouring beers at the seminars.

I'm just saying, if the current state of the hobby supports 500 die hards travelling to wherever, that should be what it is.
We're probably settling in to crowds more similar to these:

Those hotels have a few things in common. They are JUST big enough to handle these numbers. Their grand ballrooms were PACKED with the club night, and other big events but they fit. No need for a full expo center. They are also all 45 minutes from the international airport and quite a ways outside the metro centers. Those costs were manageable for AHA and the attendees at the sacrifice of being just a little more inconvenient to get to the hot spots.



Just MAYBE, AHA is concerned about the optics of downsizing in a major way and combining it with GABF is a way to obscure what is a sad state of the hobby and make it looks like a big upgrade.

 

[hout17]

What is there roughly 36k members? That means roughly they had 3.5-3.6% of those members at homebrewcon. The optics have been bad for a while.

 

[redrocker652002]

I think moving it around is great but you have to have more than 1200-1300 people show up.

Maybe they should focus on smaller city centers outside of major metro areas for their venues with cheaper accommodations.

Rent out a cheap warehouse with air conditioning for the conference it doesn't need to be the bees knees.

They have to figure out how to tap into the homebrewer population. It seems a negligible amount of homebrewers attend.

This. I said earlier, there are fairground locations that have multiple buildings to do conferences and all that. If you do it in the nicer months, the vendors can be outside and you can even rent spaces to the commercial or club brewers too. Hotels are usually pretty close and are a bit more reasonable. I would have loved to go to San Diego, but by the time I figure cost of gas, two days tickets, my wife having to join AHA even though she has no interest in beer other than that I drink it, and then the cost of a hotel, it was over 1k. Way too much for a hobby in my opinion. I will again say, The Good Guys, the classic car organization, puts on two to three events here at the Alameda County Fairgrounds. the cost of the entrance is only about 25 to 30 bucks. Now, I understand that they do not do the classes and the speakers like this does, but if you scale down the venue, you might see an increase in the attendance. Like I said, I would have made the trek to San Diego, but the ticket prices and all the add ons just put it way out of my price range for a hobby. I would think about Denver as I have always wanted to visit there. I have to check out prices and hotels. My wife does not fly, so it is a two day drive each way. But, with that said, I think the organization is trying to be Oracle or Tesla, when they don't have to be. Scale it down in venue and city choices and I think you might see a bit of an increase in attendance. Just one man's opinion, take it for what it is worth. Rock On!!!!!!

 

[Boilerbrew]

Looking over the numbers when you posted them the first time Bobby I had the same thought as your last post. These numbers aren't that far off from a decade ago. Hopefully the next 16 months gives the AHA time to reevaluate the current model and find a way to make this work again.

I'm looking for a way to connect with people about my love for homebrewing and the NHC is the best way to do that at any scale above a few local club meetings and competitions. But even most competitions aren't really focused on the social connection aspect. I think building those social connections is one of the best ways this hobby grows and expands and reaches new people.

 

[MaxStout]

They spent the first decade having them in the Denver area. Most of the attendance numbers are missing, but I'm going to assume it was under a couple hundred each time in those early years. Maybe this thing's going full circle and AHA is simplifying by returning it to their back yard. Hopefully, the attendance won't drop to those 1980s numbers again, but as @Bobby_M suggested, it will probably settle in to something like it was 15-ish years ago. It'll become the domain of 500-1000 diehards each year.

There is another recent thread about overall homebrewing numbers, and it was noted there that the number of people homebrewing peaked a good 10 years ago. HBC had its biggest attendance in 2013, so that tracks. The head count of homebrewers nationwide is down now, the attendance at HBC has dropped as well. All the boats going up and down with the tide.

There would be some economy of scale by hosting both events in tandem, in the same place. That was probably a big factor in the decision. Denver is a major hub for several airlines, so lots of flight choices.