Hmm Toasted Sugar - Dry Caramelization

[thunderwagn]

@Schlenkerla I've actually brewed your amber a couple of times. I've got some homegrown Cascades I need to use up and I'm considering another round of your amber...possibly kicked up a notch with some "toasted sugar".
From what I've gathered so far, the key is toasting right around 300 or so, watching and stirring enough to keep it from going to a liquid state. I'm thinking a pound or so?

 

[Schlenkerla]

@Schlenkerla I've actually brewed your amber a couple of times. I've got some homegrown Cascades I need to use up and I'm considering another round of your amber...possibly kicked up a notch with some "toasted sugar".
From what I've gathered so far, the key is toasting right around 300 or so, watching and stirring enough to keep it from going to a liquid state. I'm thinking a pound or so?

That sounds like a good idea. You have it right. I used 300F. Then heated/toasted it for 60 minutes then from there stirred every 30 minutes. It has to be uncovered. Until you take out to cool.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I just toasted up about a cup of sugar to try this out, 300F for two hours. Nice caramel notes, kind of subtle. Used a bit to make a latte, added a great caramel/dulce de leche back note to the frothed milk.

That's a good to know. At four it was more than subtle. At 8 it was taking on more of burnt toasted toffee bitterness.

 

[Schlenkerla]

now i want one of these

going to have to try the toasted sugar as well in one of my blondes.

any tasting notes on how it turned out?


J.

I want one of those too. I almost got a bottle of that for my brew day. I went for the blonde because thats what I was making.

No tasting notes other than the sugar toasted times. The beer is still fermenting. It's only day 5.

I'll definitely report back.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Once upon a time... :-D https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=582317

I read the second article and posted over there by mistake. That's a good article too. Did you ever try this yourself?

 

[Weezy]

Interesting! How does it taste compared to molasses or blackstrap?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Interesting! How does it taste compared to molasses or blackstrap?

It's not molasses tasting at all. It's caramel tasting.

I think it's like caramel syrup; starts out a light caramel then progresses to just caramel, to toffee, to toasty slightly burnt bitter caramel.

I've only done this once. In a beer and it's still fermenting. I've tasted the sugar at 4 and 8 hours. The sugar is light brown and taste was caramel at 4 to a toasty caramel at 8 and slightly darker. I've taken it to what I think it's caramelization limit at 8 hours.

 

[BarkingSpider]

I read the second article and posted over there by mistake. That's a good article too. Did you ever try this yourself?

I didn't! Go figure, most of the brews I've made of late have not had a sugar addition. :-/

 

[Schlenkerla]

Got this beer in a keg on Monday. It's not real clear at the moment, kinda yeasty from racking. Hit with gelatin. It's got some residual sweetness at the moment it needs to clean up before I can ascertain how much dry caramel is in this beer.

The hop Sterling seems to remind me of northern brewer. I had to go look at the recipe just to jog my memory. Damn way off.

Sterling https://g.co/kgs/a2MuBV

 

[kingwood-kid]

Any updates on the flavor? I toasted up 4lbs last night, and I'm looking for some inspiration.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Any updates on the flavor? I toasted up 4lbs last night, and I'm looking for some inspiration.

I'll let you know tonight.

I took a small quaffer last night, it's clearing up and has a slightly sweet finish, despite finishing 1.010. The ABV is noticeable, at 8%. I can't tell if it's carmel or toffee yet, the S-33 banana ester is still present.

It's hard to say until the profile cleans up more. More time....

 

[Thorsbrew]

This sounds interesting but I just have a thought here. I can see how this is useful for certain deserts but when used for our purposes where we simply dissolve into boiling wort does it really matter whether one uses caramel syrup or caramelized sugar? Considering its probably much quicker to get caramel flavor in syrup form.

 

[Schlenkerla]

This sounds interesting but I just have a thought here. I can see how this is useful for certain deserts but when used for our purposes where we simply dissolve into boiling wort does it really matter whether one uses caramel syrup or caramelized sugar? Considering its probably much quicker to get caramel flavor in syrup form.

True. Especially if you have caramel syrup readily at hand.

I haven't tried making caramelized syrup. You need a candy thermometer and you have to add water to a liquid that's over 300F. It spits and spatters as you do it, like when you make Mexican rice with tomato sauce and chicken stock.

While that might not be a big deal, its rather easy to toast sugar for several hours at 300F.

I plan to make caramelized syrup at some point. I ran across this by accident and decided to give it a try.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Any updates on the flavor? I toasted up 4lbs last night, and I'm looking for some inspiration.

I tasted it tonight.

It's cleared more. The head is caramely tasting as is the beer. More so than I thought before.

It's not over the top. It's subtle but detectable.

This beer is made with pilsner. I rarely use pilsner malt. Pilsner is supposedly the least malty malt one could use and should be the most neutral in flavor.

I would suggest you make a single malt single hop beer with toasted sugar to confirm or refute my tasting results.

It's not a caramel chew, bulls-eye, type flavor. It's common high gravity beer with a touch of caramel.

IMHO - I like the beer so far. It's still young and hot tasting. It has a caramel taste. Personally, I'd like it to age more before sharing with friends. It's going to get better with time.

This is a low risk experiment if you ask me. Worse case, you'll have a beer that'll get you drunk faster.

LOL

 

[Bosh]

This sounds interesting but I just have a thought here. I can see how this is useful for certain deserts but when used for our purposes where we simply dissolve into boiling wort does it really matter whether one uses caramel syrup or caramelized sugar? Considering its probably much quicker to get caramel flavor in syrup form.

Well I've made caramel syrup before and it made for delicious beer but dear Jesus was it annoying to deal with. Stuck like glue and eventually had to throw out the plastic container I stored it in since I just could not get all of the caramel out whatever I did.

If toasted sugar tastes the same but isn't so freaking sticky that'd be incredible.

 

[Schlenkerla]

It also adds very little in color to beer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Taste the sugar too. Before putting it in a beer. An earlier poster put it an espresso and liked it.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Mine was pretty caramelly. It was nowhere near as sweet as I toasted sugar, but it was still sweet enough to obscure much else, although obviously that will change during fermentation. I was planning on putting this in a big Belgian instead of candi syrup.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Mine was pretty caramelly. It was nowhere near as sweet as I toasted sugar, but it was still sweet enough to obscure much else, although obviously that will change during fermentation. I was planning on putting this in a big Belgian instead of candi syrup.

Are you rethinking that now?

 

[Schlenkerla]

I made this in a blonde just to see the impact of the toasted sugar.

If you are set on making a Belgian, you can also use demerara or turbinado. Demerara is great, used it in my ESB. It has a good rummy taste.

It's my understanding using sugars with Belgians outside of adding ABV, and flavor of caramel, the sugars are used mainly to help the yeast reach the target gravity. Using too much crystallized malts tend to hurt attenuation in high gravity wort. The limit is 15-20%. This swings it the other way.

Anyhow, at some point I'm going to try piloncilo in a dubbel chocolate brown.

http://www.thekitchn.com/whats-the-difference-muscovado-145157

http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/07/spice-hunting-piloncillo-panela-mexican-raw-sugar-how-to-use.html

 

[Schlenkerla]

I say this above, ^^^^ only because I don't want you disappointed on Belgian as a result of using unknown substitute.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Big Belgian is still the plan, although the ESB route has promise as well. I'm okay with it not being part of a BJCP defined style; something that straddles dubbel and tripel is ok by me. I'm just hoping that it all comes together nicely. I was just wondering what your taste impressions were. You seem happy with the result, so that's encouraging.

 

[Schlenkerla]

A glass of "Sister of Carmelite"

Caramel taste with no carmel malt.

View attachment 1490241097623.jpg

 

[Thorsbrew]

Do you like the caramel flavor more than with caramel malt? Just adding caramel malt into the mash would be easier.

 

[Magnus314]

What was your FG?

Caramel malt taste without residual sugars would be great!

 

[Schlenkerla]

What was your FG?

Caramel malt taste without residual sugars would be great!

Its was 1.008. Sister Of Caremelite Blonde Ale

I used 2 packs of S-33 that's not necessarily known to be a dry fermenter.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Do you like the caramel flavor more than with caramel malt? Just adding caramel malt into the mash would be easier.

I'd say no, I like adding caramel malt more. Especially in ordinary session beers. This was more of sugar experiment. The taste of the caramel in this beer is good, especially since its a big blonde and needs sugar to dry out. Frankly, its more like a lower gravity tripel.

Typically one might use candi sugar (in this case toasted sugar) to add caramel in a high gravity beer like a dubbel, tripel or a quad when the addition of crystal impacts attenuation too much. Crystal malt elevates the pH. It makes it go higher, and prevents dry attenuation. This is per Stan Hieronymus In "Brew Like a Monk". I believe he says crystal malts need to be below 7% of the grist if over 40L. Sugar has a drying effect. If you add enough it can knock the FG to 1.000. Typically required for Saison. It essentially over compensates by adding alcohol that's well below 1.000, so unfermentables that would normally be over 1.012 allow your beer to be more like 1.000 to 1.006.

This particular advice has driven me to try various sugars. Demerara, Toasted and soon piloncillo (panela). I used demerara in an ESB with Windsor to dry it out since its known to finish high. Demerara is caramely and toffee like with a rummy aftertaste. I even detect a slight note of licorice too.

 

[JohnSand]

Interesting, thank you.

 

[frettfreak]

interesting. I literally came across that serious eat article a month or so ago and about 2 weeks ago, toasted 4 types of sugar to test and taste. I used table sugar, demerera, washed raw, and pure cane organic sugar. by a million miles everyones favorite was the organic cane sugar followed by the washed raw. We actually used them to brew some rootbeer and creamsoda with my kids (came out amazing with the caramelized sugar) and plan to try these in several beers!

As a comparison, the table sugar was the lightest and least caramel tasting. Was good, just not as good as any of the others. the demerera and washed raw sugar were very similar with the raw lending just a little more flavor. The pure cane organic was simply amazing. Not as heavy feeling as the other 2 but lots of caramel flavor.

Personally, i think the washed raw would be amazing in anything dark but may get a little deep if used in a lighter beer. The pure cane would be good in almost anything i would imagine.

For reference, I toasted all mine for 3 hours.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I think I was supposed to update this. I made a dubbel with .25 each Special B and Chocolate malt and 2 lbs of toasted sugar. It's quite tasty, but it lacks the depth of flavor you get from dark candi syrup.