Help with a Cystal problem

[lurker18]

I am going to be doing my first all grain this weekend, a sweet stout, and it calls for 100L Crystal.
I would like to follow the recipie to a T, so please don't tell me that it is not needed.
My LHBS carries 10L, 45L, 77L, and 120L. Let's say I need a pound of 100L (I don't have the recipie infront of me now), how would I get that with what I have to work with.

 

[TheDom]

Well, you'll never follow it to a T without actually having Crystal 80. Really crystal 77 (that exists? really?) is damned close enough where you'd never know the difference. For getting the color equivalent of a pound of 100, I suppose you could mix 77 and 120 together half and half, maybe with a hair more 120 than 77. Flavor-wise, I would think it would be different, since 120 has flavor notes that aren't found in 80 or 100. I don't usually blend crystal to sub, so I could be wrong. Doing so may lend a more complex taste to your stout, but again it won't be "to the T."

 

[waldoar15]

Looks like "close enough" is what some of the maltsers go by.

Cargill Caramel 10 (8° - 15° L)
Cargill Caramel 20 (15° - 25° L)
Cargill Caramel 30 (25° - 35° L)
Cargill Caramel 40 (35° - 45° L)
Cargill Caramel 60 (55° - 65° L)
Cargill Caramel 80 (70° - 85° L)

 

[wilserbrewer]

Crystal 77? I usually prefer the 78 or 79.

 

[lurker18]

Sorry guys, but that is what he has it as. I'm not just throwing numbers out there.
Base malts: Domestic 2-row malt (Malteurop, from right here in Winnipeg, and Gambrinus from B.C.). Maris Otter malt (UK), German Pilsner malt (Weyermann), Golden Promise (Fawcett) and wheat malt (O-I-O Brand).



Specialty Malts: Aromatic malt, Biscuit Malt (aka: Melanoiden malt from Weyermann), Caramunich malt (Weyermann), Caramunich (Weyermanns), Carapils (Carafoam by Weyermann, sometimes called dextrin malt), CaraVienna (aka: Cara-Amber from Weyermann), Crystal malt (Muntons UK, in 45, 77, and 120 lovibond), Crystal malt light (10 lovibond, aka: Cara-Red from Weyermann), Honey malt (Gambrinus, Canada), Light Munich Malt (Weyermann), Dark Munich malt (Weyermann), Toasted malt (O-I-O brand) and Vienna malt (Weyermann).



Roasted Malts: Black Patent malt (UK, Muntons), Carafa Malt, Chocolate malt (UK, Muntons), Roasted barley (UK , Bairds)



Adjuncts: Flaked barley, flaked maize, flaked oats, flaked rice, flaked wheat, and rye malt.

 

[PVH]

Crystal 77? I usually prefer the 78 or 79.

In my sweet stouts, I prefer the more pronounced raisin notes of the 79L. The 78 just doesn't quite cut it.

 

[elkdog]

In all seriousness, the 77 will be perfect. Don't even bother to consider it a substitution- 77 and 80 are, for all intents and purposes, the same, especially in a stout.

 

[lurker18]

Getting back to the question, 77L for 100L called for in the recipie? Or go as suggested half and half 77-120?

 

[waldoar15]

Well, with Muntons and other European maltsters it's probably a conversion from the old EBC ranges.

Go here and poke in the numbers.

http://www.beercolor.com/

An EBC # of 130 from the Muntons web site gives you 78.7 Lovibond.

 

[PVH]

Getting back to the question, 77L for 100L called for in the recipie? Or go as suggested half and half 77-120?

I think TheDom was correct above. You can get the same color as 100 by blending the 120 and 77 (which probably won't matter given the roasted grains), but you can't get the same taste. So, if the LHBS is your only source for grains, you are not going to be able to follow the recipe exactly.

If I were in your shoes, I would RDWHAHB and just use the 120L, but less than the amount of 100 the recipe calls for.

 

[elkdog]

Getting back to the question, 77L for 100L called for in the recipie? Or go as suggested half and half 77-120?

I thought you needed 80L as suggested in your first post. If you need to replicate 100L (which I don't see in many recipes), you could either just use the 77, as it is actually not a huge deal in this particular style, or go with, say 12 ounces of 77 and 4 of 120 to make a pound of 100. 50/50 wouldn't hurt, but the 120 is pretty potent stuff, so I'm thinking 75/25 would be a good ratio here. I actually would avoid going all the way to 120, just because I think you need a "sweeter" sweetness from the crystal in this recipe. Just know that your roasted grains- roasted barley, chocolate malt, etc. are what are bringing the real color and roasted flavor to your stout. The crystal is for a sweet, caramel/toffee flavor, and frankly using 77 instead of 100 will not hurt a thing- it'll be different, but not "off". Folks, myself included, put crystal 77/80 in stouts and porters all the time, so don't worry about being off-style.

 

[Bobby_M]

You'd be lucky if actual 80L is even close to 80 lovibond from maltster to malster and batch to batch. If a recipe calls for 80, anything within 20L is passable. I'd even say special B and 120L are just as interchangeable.

 

[richc]

Half and half won't be exactly the same as 100L but will be close enough.

 

[lurker18]

Sorry for the confusion of the first post, I was thinking of what he had and what I need and mixed up the numbers. The recipie calls for 100L, and I thought I could blend the 77 and the 120 to get close.

By the looks of what people are saying, and my own thoughts to keep it on the sweet side, I am going to go with the 77, maybe just an oz or 2 of the 120.

 

[kanzimonson]

When I have this problem I use the same weight of crystal called for in the recipe, with one third being the darker color, and two thirds the lower.

 

[Yooper]

You know, I've NEVER seen 100L crystal. I've used 80, 90 (different maltsters), 120L, special B, etc, but I've never even heard of 100L.

Where did you get the recipe?

 

[lurker18]

Found it online under a milk stout, I will look around to see if I can find it.

Did a google search for 100 L crystal, and one of the Belgian maltsters, DeWolf-Cosyns, which has now out of business (once was in partnership with Cargill), had there Special B at 100L, and listed in it's description as a very dark crystal malt, unique to Belgium. Since it has been out of business, I assume Cargill will now just be calling this Special B, from a different supplier.

I guess I could try this, or go with the blend that I was thinking.

 

[Northcalais40]

Not for nothing, the differences in all of our brewing practices would likely make a bigger variation in beer color,flavor,aroma, etc. than a bastard crystal blend. I would use the 77L just to spite the smart^sses.

 

[lurker18]

Got the ingredients last night and went with the 77. The Special B they had was listed at 150L or something (might have been even higher). There was the 120L, but it seemed most were leaning in the straight 77 area.