Help needed to perfect some IPA and IIPA's...

[beesy]

So I have been brewing for around 2 years and fairly active on this site (some posts for the better and some for worse ). I have brewed many tasty brews and some that scored very well and made it in the finals in local comps (I have one in the finals of a local comp, the winner to be announced Sunday, so I'll let you know how it goes). I love IPA and IIPA's. I would like to think I follow recipes well, however, it seems like my IPA and IIPA's always fall short of my expectations, even with popular clone recipes or ones I tweak a little and have yet to make a IPA or IIPA I am super happy with. FYI- I keg (and always purge several times before pressurizing). The dry-hop dissipates within a few days and my bitterness seems to always be under where I estimate it using Beersmith. The hops I use are all whole leaf, same year, stored in vacuum bags in my freezer (15 lbs this year -- thanks Hopsdirect!!). I have added gypsum, calcium chloride and/or acids to previous mashes to try to sharpen and accentuate the hops, but to no avail. I've even pressurized my dry-hopping hops with co2 and purged them with co2 before adding to 2ndary and it doesn't seem to help.

Taking a somewhat scientific approach to eliminate unknows, I can tell something has to change in my process and my thoughts to make improvements are this:
1) get a ph meter and monitor the ph level of the mash and boil closely - adjusting as necessary (maintain mash 5.3-5.5, prop shoot for mash ph of 5.4)
2) send water samples in to be analyzed - so proper h2o mods can be made
3) get a conical to ensure no oxidation is happening between 2nd and keg

obviously on 1 and 2 above, adding water modifiers doesn't really do much good unless you know where you're starting (although I use the local water report as a guideline). if anyone has suggestions or had an epiphany going through the same thing, let 'her rip. I'll be ordering 1 and sending in 2 within the next week. Come hell or high water (not a 21A IPA rip-off) I will make a great IPA and IIPA, just may take me a while to figure it out.

 

[Walker]

Dry hopping doesn't do anything for bitterness, so that part can be ignored when trying to figure out why your IBUs are lower than you want/expect.

For the hops you boil, those are also whole hops, right?

Do you bag them or let them float freely in the kettle while boiling?

 

[Yooper]

I'd suggest spending the $16 and sending a water sample to Ward's labs. Without knowing where you're starting, just adding CaSO4 or CaCl2 is just guessing. Unless you're starting with RO water, and building from there, you won't know your beginning or ending water profile. I wouldn't do any water adjustments until you knew your basic water chemistry.

As far as the bitterness being under what Beersmith estimates- that's a hard one. Each scale (Rager, Tinseth) is a bit different, and 50 IBUs on the Tinseth scale might not be 50 IBUs on the Rager. But being experienced with one or the other means you can taste what 50 IBUs tastes like in your beer. If it's under what you're expecting, what do you mean by that? Are you comparing your 50 IBU homebrew to a commercial 50 IBU beer, for example? I'm trying to figure out where the bitterness not being correct is. It could be recipe related- too much crystal malt, underhopping, etc- or it could be water chemistry. Or it could be a difference in perception.

Could you post a typical recipe that defines this, so we can take a look at see what some of the possible causes are?

 

[Mirilis]

I have added gypsum, calcium chloride and/or acids to previous mashes to try to sharpen and accentuate the hops, but to no avail.

Chloride works against you.. try using more Sulfates (you want a higher SO4:Cl ratio) the Sulfates are what sharpen your hop flavor and makes the bitterness less harshe.

Since you use whole hops are you making sure that your beersmith calculator is set for whole hops? Whole hops do not utilize as well as pellets and you need to add more. Im thinking something like 20% but i cant remember.

+1 to sending your water out. It always helps to know whats going on with your water if you expect to play around with the water chemestry.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Full boil? AG? EXTRACT?

 

[ksbrain]

Simple solution: just use more hops.

I was making 65 IBU IPAs and was left wishing they were more bitter. So I made one to 80 IBU, which might have been too much. So I kept adjusting from there.

I first dry hopped with one ounce of Wilamettes and was left wishing for more hop flavor and aroma. So I dry hopped with two ounces of Columbus, which might have been too much. So I kept adjusting from there.

My local water report doesn't tell me anything about the ions I care about. It only covers health and safety contaminants like lead. You should be able to call the water company and ask them about the specific ions we're interested in controlling. Once you have your actual water profile and a target water profile you can calculate the exact additions you need to make.

Something else comes to mind - if it's a long time from grain to glass for your IPAs, you could have missed the sweet spot. I'm drinking my IPAs three weeks after brew day, and I get a good long window of dry hop awesomeness.

 

[wildwest450]

Why use additives if you've never had your water checked? +1 to Yoop, get your water evaluated. Also is your perception of bitterness and aroma based on others comments or yours alone? Aroma does not go away in a few day's, not possible. Do you suffer from allergies? Your nose can be your biggest enemy when it comes to judging beer.

And fwiw, I have a very neutral water profile and add nothing for my pales and ipa's. I get good feedback from these beers.

 

[beesy]

I'll try to hit them all and add some addn'l info to maybe help

-All grain, full boil, 5.5g FV's, no mash out, fly sparge

- I weigh my hops out on a digital scale that measures in 1 gram increments.

-Will be getting water tested for sure

-I started playing around with water modifiers when I was dissatisfied with results just to see if I could notice any changes. I totally agree it's kind of a blind craps shoot, but it was done for experiment only.

-No allergies - however I do notice some days my hop perception is different. Just the other night I was sipping a Ska Modus Hoperandi and was like wow, this is totally grassy tasting tonight compared to the others I drank recently off the same 6-pack

-I always make sure I select the appropriate form of hop in Beersmith. I stated I use all whole, but this is more like 90% of the time. On occasion I do use pellet.

-Left Beersmith IBU scale on Tinseth. I believe it typically has lower IBUS compared to Rager

-The hop aroma does dissipate very quickly by my perception. I thought maybe some oxidation was taking place here, hence my experiments with purging them with CO2 before adding. I just went and poured a sample. It's been 13 days since kegged and the aroma has dissipated significantly.

-I let the hops "free roam" during the boil (and dry-hop)- no bag.

Here's the last one I brewed up - all hops whole, from 2009 harvest
10.33 2 row (Rahr)
1.33 crystal 20
1.25 munich
.33 Chinook 12.4aa FWH
1.33 Chinook 12.4aa @ 70 mins
1.0 Centennial 11.4aa @ 20 mins
1.0 Centennial 11.4aa @ 10 mins
1.0 Chinook 12.4aa @ 1 mins
.75 Chinook 12.4aa Dryhop 5 days @ 65f
.75 Centennial 11.4aa Dryhop 5 days @ 65f
1 tsp gypsum in mash
mash at 153 for 50 minutes
sparge water at 180F
whirlfloc
starter of 1056

sg 1.054
og 1.064
sv 6.5
fv 5.5
fermented at 67F

Beersmith put this around 90 ibu, so I would equate it in bitterness to, oh, Green Flash W.C. IPA or Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous (i think they're both in the mid 90's) , but it just doesn't seem to be there. Maybe some more late additions needed to help give the perception???
Primary for 3.5 weeks then to 2nd for 3 more weeks, dry hop per above. I know these aren't ideal times, but doing a lot of work on condo and the brewing has taken a short term back seat. I do understand leaving on yeast will reduce IBU. Recently at a local brewery, I was able to taste their IPA served two ways, one "standard" and one cask conditioned side by side. When I told the bartend I wanted both brought out together I got the strangest look - little did she know I was on a quest for knowledge It was great to be able to see how the different they were. ksbrain got me thinking maybe I need to move it through primary and 2nd quicker and get it into the keg in a shorter time frame.

 

[doublea]

I'd suggest spending the $16 and sending a water sample to Ward's labs.

Sorry to hijack, but which water test is the best to get at Ward lab? I probably need to do some reading, but figured I should ask while this topic is being discussed. Thanks!

 

[jkarp]

Sorry to hijack, but which water test is the best to get at Ward lab? I probably need to do some reading, but figured I should ask while this topic is being discussed. Thanks!

W-6. Just partially fill one of those plastic Arrowhead water bottles and it'll fit in a small flat-rate USPS box.

 

[Mirilis]

Try to change your grain bill. Maybe its possible thecrystal is adding too much sweetness and its throwing off your perception.

 

[Yooper]

Try to change your grain bill. Maybe its possible thecrystal is adding too much sweetness and its throwing off your perception.

I agree. That's quite a bit of crystal in an IPA, in my opinion. I'd try a simple grain bill- like 95% two-row, and 5% crystal (if you really want to use crystal). I don't use crystal at all in my favorite IPA recipe.

Next time, primary for 10 days (or keep in primary for about 5 days after finished. Dry hop for 7 days. Keg. A super long primary and secondary probably isn't the problem, but it's not helping hop flavor and aroma!

 

[Mirilis]

Try listening to the jamil show on ipa...its got a lot of good info

 

[beesy]

Try listening to the jamil show on ipa...its got a lot of good info

listened to it a couple times as well as almost every CYBI and Brewstrong.

 

[ksbrain]

My latest IPA uses 1 pound of Crystal 10 and 1 pound of Crystal 40 for a five gallon batch, but still manages to be immensely hoppy.

Yooper - what do you use for color in your IPAs?

The IPA I have on tap now was made on 4/17, so even with your 6-7 week fermentation there should still be some hoppy goodness left by the time you tap it.

 

[beesy]

I agree. That's quite a bit of crystal in an IPA, in my opinion. I'd try a simple grain bill- like 95% two-row, and 5% crystal (if you really want to use crystal). I don't use crystal at all in my favorite IPA recipe.

Next time, primary for 10 days (or keep in primary for about 5 days after finished. Dry hop for 7 days. Keg. A super long primary and secondary probably isn't the problem, but it's not helping hop flavor and aroma!

Def going to pay more attention to transfer times. I know from comparing a "standard" and casked beer side by side, i didn't help the situation out, but it probably wasn't the end all, I agree. Does 10-11% really seem out of the ordinary?? I guess my thought is I;m using 20 degree that will convert a little. I see highly rated IPA recipes all the time with 10-12+% 60 degree which will leave more residual sweetness and flavor that 20 degree. It may def be a factor though. Let me get my H2O sample in (anyone know turn-0around time for Ward Labs?) and I will post results. I'm starting to think it's just a few small things that add up. Like I said, I'm in no way saying I'm perfect at this, but most of my brews turn out very well and I think I have solid methods, but they just need tweaked and a recipe tweaked. I'm going to take yooper advice and try a 92-95% two row and fill in the rest with crystal or munich or vienna and see what happens. then, residual sweetness will pretty much me out of the question. thanks everyone that chimed in!

 

[Yooper]

My latest IPA uses 1 pound of Crystal 10 and 1 pound of Crystal 40 for a five gallon batch, but still manages to be immensely hoppy.

Yooper - what do you use for color in your IPAs?

The IPA I have on tap now was made on 4/17, so even with your 6-7 week fermentation there should still be some hoppy goodness left by the time you tap it.

My favorite IPA recipe is 13 pounds of two-row, and 6 ounces of amber malt. I've used biscuit malt, too. It's got an SRM of about 6.

The centennial IPA I make has a pound of crystal for a total of 7.5% crystal. 5-7% is about the amount I use, if I use it at all.

Does 10-11% really seem out of the ordinary?? I guess my thought is I;m using 20 degree that will convert a little.

No, it's not really "out of the ordinary" since some people like sweeter beers. I do not. Jamil Zainasheff's recipe in Brewing Classic Styles has about 9% crystal. He does have a warning to mash at 149 so that it's not cloying, and finishes low. For the extract conversion, he recommends replacing some of the extract with corn sugar, for the same reason.

It's a balancing act- you want enough malt to balance all the hops and give it a "backbone" but you don't want it sweet or underattenuated. The malt flavor should be 'clean' behind the bitterness and hoppiness, and rather low.

The water profile from Ward's is extremely helpful, and the turnaround time was very quick. You may find that a few simple adjustments may be the perfect solution to your problem.

 

[remilard]

remilards IPA tips

don't use base malt only, even if it is english, not enough malt character

I prefer using melanoiden and biscuit malt (or honey and victory etc) than crystal. However a lot of my favorite commercial IPAs use small amounts of crystal.

As with all pale beers, use water with low alkalinity and you may need to acidify the mash. RO water with enough gypsum to get you 35 or so ppm calcium and a little bit of acid malt will do the trick. Without knowing what your municipal supply is I can't say whether or not using it is a good idea. If the alkalinity is lowish you can use it.

pH at start of boil (about the same as end of mash) should be about 5.4, lower would be better than higher. Almost no water will give a pH this low for an IPA.

Don't go crazy on mineral additions. I luckily have 120 ppm sulfate and 40 of chloride which is close to some of the water sources in the bay area and san diego. I think people place way too much emphasis on sulfate and chloride though. If you want a hoppier beer and the first thing you think of is sulfate, you are missing the point.

Forget about IBU estimation. That might be useful the first time you put together a recipe but if you want the beer more bitter, put in more bittering hops. Don't worry about what the calculator says.

Consider Northern Brewer's HopShot (c02 extracted hop extract) for bittering to keep the amount of hops in the kettle reasonable.

Use lots of flameout hops and let them stand in hot wort for a while. Russian River, Green Flash, Lagunitus and every other maker of hoppy beers you love are doing a ~30 minute hot whirlpool with hops in. That is one part of the commercial process I recommend replicating, even if the whirlpool isn't part of your process just let the hops sit in there. Note, you will get some isomerization of alpha acids here and therefore some bitterness. So this in and of itself will fix your bitterness issue without doing anything else to the recipe.

Go to heroic lengths to avoid oxidation.

Read Vinnie Cilurzo's Zymurgy articles and listen to everything he says about dry hopping. Alternately, listen to his or Matt Bryndilson's interviews on Brewing Network. Try to figure out how you can use their ideas on your equipment (assuming you don't have a pressurizeable conical).

 

[Mirilis]

What did this beer finish out at?

 

[rayg]

Beersmith put this around 90 ibu, so I would equate it in bitterness to, oh, Green Flash W.C. IPA or Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous (i think they're both in the mid 90's) , but it just doesn't seem to be there. Maybe some more late additions needed to help give the perception???

Someone is pulling our leg.

Ray

 

[beesy]

Someone is pulling our leg.

Ray

About which aspect? Not trying to sound defensive or anything, just curious. I just verified Stone's site and it is 90 and Green Flash states 95. Here's a printscreen of my Beermith HERE

Anyone mind tossing it into their brew software and see what they come up with? The full recipe is in the thread.

 

[pacebrew]

here is something i have figured out. You need to calculate your IBU's on POST BOIL measurements, not based on whats going into the fermenter only -- not sure if beersmith does this or not. The acids are in the post boil liquid, therefore whatever you lose in the kettle contains alphas you wont get in the fermenter.