HELP! Did I screw up my first cider?

[BeerBaron1985]

Hello all!

Long time lurker now a member. I can really use some expertise with cider. I've been brewing for about 8 years. Only in the last two years have I really kicked into overdrive. Anyways, went to my local orchard and got 12 gallons (two 6 gallon fermenters) of delish unpasteurized cider. I'm using British Ale yeast.

So i pitched at 62 this past Saturday and as of today Tuesday its been bubbling aggressively. I didn't add any extra yeast nutrient, nor did I use potassium metabisulfite...yet. I got home from work today and the basement smelt something fierce of sulfur. Rhinofarts from what I've read on here. So I opened up the house to air it out, and read on here that the sulfur smell was from low levels of nutrients for the yeast. So I added 3 teaspoons a piece of nutrients to each fermenter after sanitizing my hands and equipment.

Now where I think I screwed up is this. I panicked thinking the sulfur smell meant the batch was infected and also added about 2 teaspoons of potassium metabisulfite to each fermenter, and this is after the yeast was pitched. I then opened up the fermenter and stirred them in the open air to aerate them (I know bad idea, risk of infection)

Did I just kill all that vigorous yeast? My air locks are still bubbling, but far slower, like a bubble every other minute or so instead of several every few seconds.

Is the batch no good? Can I save $118 bucks of cider? Or should I dump down the drain, start from scratch, and take the $130~ lesson move on???

 

[oldmate]

At this stage in fermentation it is common for cider makers (and virtually all good wine/mead makers) to aerate the must and expel CO2. The added O2 is used by the yeast for reproduction. As for the Kmeta, not my area of expertise as I don't use it for stabilisation but I don't think you could have wiped out the whole population, maybe just slowed them down a bit. My recommendation would be to watch the specific gravity over the next day or two, if it is dropping still then leave it be, if it is fairly consistent you might want to repitch some yeast.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi BeerBaron - and welcome -
In my opinion it is unlikely that the K-meta you added would be able to kill a large and virile colony of yeast despite the fact that you added a large dose of SO2... but rather than count bubbles in your airlock you want to measure the changes in gravity - I would grab your hydrometer and take a gravity reading now and again in 24 hours. If the gravity is still dropping your yeast is still active.
As to the "risk" of infection - cider ain't beer and most people I know use a bucket as their primary - covered with a cloth so that they can stir to aerate and remove the CO2. Your colony of yeast will have modified their environment to prefer them and disprefer any volunteer cell or two.
I know that lots of brewers use beer yeasts to ferment cider but wine yeasts are better suited to ferment apple juice with less likelihood of stress. 71B, for example, has an affinity for malic acid that ale yeasts don't. Bottom line - you probably have 12 gallons of very drinkable cider but you may want to modify your protocol - producing hydrogen sulfide (the rhino farts ) suggests that you are stressing the yeast. You want to stir air into the cider to remove the gas. If it does not dissipate easily you may need to pull the cider through some copper wool (the copper will bind with the sulfur...

 

[BeerBaron1985]

Bernardsmith, oldmate,

Thank you for your reply. My original gravity started at 1.054. Currently its at 1.039. I did as you suggested and stirred the must with a sanitized spoon with holes in it to aerate the cider. No more sulfur smell at all. Sweet as can be. I'll check SP tomorrow after work.

Also forgot to mention that I did use about 40 drops per 6 galloons of pectic enzyme as recommended by my local supply house brewer. Will help to clear the cider later. Guess it dont matter if its hazey or clear long as it tastes good!

I think what I'm going to wind up doing is Stir and aerate a little bit longer and repitch some new yeast tomorrow after work. If the risk of infection is lower than that of beer, then I will continue to open the fermenter bucket to stir oxygen back into the must.


Being new to cider my plan was to primary ferment for 3 weeks secondary ferment for 3 weeks and then keg/force carb. Tap prolly at 2 months see where its at.

Now whats the deal with potassium sorbate? That is meant to stop fermentation all together correct? Would that be advisable since im kegging? It should be added when I keg correct?

Thank you again very much for the replies and advice. Cider is a different beast compared with beer!

 

[oldmate]

Potassium sorbate stops the reproductive cycle of the yeast so that they cannot reproduce, always use it with K-meta (potassium metabisulfite) which helps with removing O2 from solution. There are some simple calculators out there to determine how much you will need for your cider - you will only need it if you plan on backsweetening (adding sugar) post-fermentation. Probably a good idea even if you are planning on kegging/force carbing although I can't speak from experience in this regard.

 

[laredo7mm]

It all depends on what you want your final cider to be...to retain some natural sweetness or to have it ferment out to dry.

If you want it to be dry, then by all means add yeast nutrient and stir away like wine makers do, but in my opinion, if you want to leave some residual sweetness, then don't use nutrients, don't stir, and ferment at a low temp. Stress the yeast as much as needed to get the final product you want. The rhino farts will dissipate with time. Check out Keeving, it is a process used for centuries to produce a low nutrient juice to stress the yeast and the final cider retains some natural sugars.

I don't think there is one correct answer on how to make cider. Everybody likes something different. People have had great success using ale yeast and wine yeast, stirring and not stirring, fermenting warm, fermenting cool, cold crashing to stop fermentation etc, etc, etc.

Take a look at the stickies on the top of the page. There is tons of information there.

 

[bernardsmith]

Not sure the value of adding more yeast. What that will do is immediately stress this yeast as you are asking the yeast to acclimatize not to a sugar environment but to one that has a great deal of alcohol in it. If you REALLY think it worthwhile to add more yeast turn the process on its head. Create a small starter with the yeast - say a cup of apple juice (or water with sugar) and pitch your yeast. When you see that the fermentation has taken off add 1 cup of your fermenting cider to this starter (you are doubling the volume but diluting the alcohol the yeast is exposed to). When that shows that this is now actively fermenting add 2 cups of your cider.. and keep on repeating that process until all the cider that was in your first batch has been added to the fresh batch of yeast. This is standard protocol for a stalled fermentation.

 

[BeerBaron1985]

According to my gravity measurements, I should have about 1.97% alcohol in there from fermenting since this past Saturday. i want a semi residual sweet cider. I figure I will repitch some new yeast, and keep an eye on the gravity and fermentation, and then use the potassium sorbate to stop fermentation once its reached the ABV and sweetness level I want. I've already added the yeast nutrients so that ship has already sailed. I'll def check out the stickies and see what various methods I can try.

Thank you all!

 

[BeerBaron1985]

Hello so I got another 6 gallons of cider fresh and took the 12 gallons that had too much sulfite and kept them open to the air for over an hour while whisking then for about 15 minutes a piece hoping that the sulfite will gas off. And then split the 12 gallons into three 6 gallon fermenters and poured the fresh cider over it soon hopefully dilute the sulfite. Pouring the first cider over the other cider help to aerate it as well. Used some k1-v116 wine yeast to get the fermentation restarted pitch that at 70 degrees this afternoon hopefully we should see some activity tomorrow.

 

[dmtaylor]

You didn't need to touch anything. Sulfur is normal. Metabisulfite also doesn't kill beer yeast, only slows them down a bit. Everything would have and still will turn out just fine. Now just leave it alone for 6 weeks.

 

[BeerBaron1985]

You didn't need to touch anything. Sulfur is normal. Metabisulfite also doesn't kill beer yeast, only slows them down a bit. Everything would have and still will turn out just fine. Now just leave it alone for 6 weeks.

I had to gas off the k-meta, i accidently put in way too much. Anyways I don't mind having more cider. believe me, I got a group of friends that will certainly drink it! Def leaving it alone now. Fingers crossed the batch comes out great!

 

[oljimmy]

Yeah, as other posters have said, you might have hit on some good cider-making juice. The #1 complaint about homemade cider is that it is too dry, harsh and tart, even after extended aging, and this was a sign that the juice you were using was low enough in nutrients to allow the cider to stop fermenting at 1.005-1.015 or so, a highly desirable amount of residual sugar.

Fructose is absolute heaven for yeast, have to be forced to stop eating it. Low nitrogen juice from organic, less fertilized orchards is a major key to this story, and in the future, just grab that juice, toss that ale yeast in, ferment at 60 and leave it alone!

 

[BeerBaron1985]

Yeah, as other posters have said, you might have hit on some good cider-making juice. The #1 complaint about homemade cider is that it is too dry, harsh and tart, even after extended aging, and this was a sign that the juice you were using was low enough in nutrients to allow the cider to stop fermenting at 1.005-1.015 or so, a highly desirable amount of residual sugar.

Fructose is absolute heaven for yeast, have to be forced to stop eating it. Low nitrogen juice from organic, less fertilized orchards is a major key to this story, and in the future, just grab that juice, toss that ale yeast in, ferment at 60 and leave it alone!

I supposes its an " it depends" answer. I do like tart cider, but sweet cider tends to be the first cider to kick at a party. Yes, I have certainly learned my lesson: Cider, pitch yeast, and leave alone ignoring the rhino farts. I hope to have a residual sweet cider. Maybe the next batch I do I'll dry hop with some cascade or mosaic hops. That sounds delicious enough to do!

Fermenting around 68 degrees now ambient room temp. Unfortunately my basement doesn't stay cool to 60 degrees except in the winter.

 

[ericbw]

This was a roller coaster of a thread. Definitely leave it alone and let it sit. But there's no harm in starting another batch as a backup!

 

[BeerBaron1985]

This was a roller coaster of a thread. Definitely leave it alone and let it sit. But there's no harm in starting another batch as a backup!

yes, I admit this was my fault to begin with, thankfully seem to be back on track. Hopefully in 6 weeks or so I'll have some nice drinkable cider

 

[BeerBaron1985]

We have fermentation, rhino farts and all! Thanks all!

 

[BeerBaron1985]

Hey everyone just wanted to give an update. Starting to transfer into the secondary now after about two weeks in the primary. Specific gravity is now at 0.99. As expected The Cider is very dry and I will likely want to back sweeten one of the 6 gallon batches. That way I have a nice balance sweet cider and a very dry carbonated cider for those that like it.

I taste a little bit of sulfur but I know that it will go away with time. We'll know in another two months or so at the minimum how this really came out.

Again thank you everyone for all the advice and apologies for the rollercoaster of a thread.

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[oljimmy]

Nice! Backsweetening is tough, make sure you read up on it. And I don't know how full that carboy is, but since your yeast are basically done fermenting they won't be making any CO2 to push the O2 out, so make sure the carboy is as full as it can be. The less O2 in the carboy, the less chance for infection and for oxidation.

 

[BeerBaron1985]

This is how full the first two 5 gallon Car boys are and I have a 1 gallon on the side completely filled and a 64-ounce growler. Trying to keep as little air space as possible. So far so good I could probably fill up the car boy a little bit more but I don't want to push it too much

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[BeerBaron1985]

So I have three 5-gallon Carboy 1 gallon jug and two 64oz growlers filled. The third carboy was and is still fermenting slightly since I had another stalled fermentation and used more yeast to get it started again. That should likely come down in the next couple days or so each of the car boys are still bubbling but very little. No worries of oxidation. I had to put into the mix vessels as 18 gallons does not exactly fill evenly. The orchard gave me a discount per gallon if I got more than 12 gallons so.

I'll definitely read up on back sweetening. It's certainly an experience and a learning curve!

I'm going to do a slight experiment and cold crash the two growlers in the refrigerator first. I'll use those to experiment back sweetening the carboy batchs. I have to learn somehow best to start small.

Cheers. I welcome the constructive criticism!

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[ericbw]

Some would say that you should use that 1 gallon to top up the big carboys up to the neck. Especially if you're aging 2 months. But I also think that when you rack, CO2 comes out of solution, filling the headspace and pushing out the O2. (It's not the CO2 blanket, it's positive pressure.) And then any remaining yeast might consume the O2 anyway. Just my thoughts.

 

[BeerBaron1985]

Some would say that you should use that 1 gallon to top up the big carboys up to the neck. Especially if you're aging 2 months. But I also think that when you rack, CO2 comes out of solution, filling the headspace and pushing out the O2. (It's not the CO2 blanket, it's positive pressure.) And then any remaining yeast might consume the O2 anyway. Just my thoughts.

Agreed, actually the airlocks are still active bubbling, so I believe I'm safe with the pressure pushing the O2 out.

 

[bernardsmith]

One of the "problems" mentioned about cider is that it is often very tart. The solution to the tartness is simply patience. The significant acid in apples is malic and malic acid is a harsh acid. It is very tart. Over time some of this malic acid is metabolized into lactic acid and lactic acid is far, far less sharp. Some yeasts are able to metabolize malic acid from day 1 - 71B , for example, which is a yeast preferred by cider makers over beer yeasts for precisely this reason. But over time - (about 12 months) the malic acid seems to change into lactic acid no matter the yeast. Of course there are also bacteria that can be added and which engage in what is called malo lactic fermentation. But bottom line, if you can put aside some if not all your cider until next year the flavors in the cider improve by magnitudes because of this lactic conversion. Cider ain't beer... and six weeks aging is selling your cider short.

 

[dmtaylor]

@bernardsmith, I couldn't agree more.

 

[ericbw]

True.