HELP - Continuous off flavor

[briegg]

I have been experiencing a kind of "grainy" flavor to many of my batches lately - I'm not sure what the cause of the flavor would be. I am back and forth between 2 potential causes:

1. Low mashing temps - I really don't trust any of my 3 thermometers.

2. New grain mill - Could my crush be causing this? I bought a Crank-N-Stein 2 roll mill, and drive it with a 3/8" drill (probably faster than the mill is supposed to be run, although this is not dissimilar than the LHBS set-up, so I figured it was probably OK).

Anyone familiar with a "grainy" taste that appears in beer, particularly in the lagers I have done (probably just more masked in the ales) and what the cause might be?

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

You're right to assume it's your grain. I'm thinking it's probably your crush, but I wouldn't think you'd get a bad crush from a crank-n-stein. What's you gap set at? Also, are you using your drill full speed? If so, try slowing it down a bit.

Cold conditioning for a few months should get rid of these flavors.

 

[nealf]

What grain bills are you using? Some malts have a more distinct "grainy" characteristic.

 

[MgMt_Home_Brew]

If you don't trust your thermometers test them with boiling water (212 degrees) and an ice bath (32 degrees).

Then you should know.

 

[briegg]

The grain bills are generally based on Briess pale malt. Not sure what my gap settings are - I'll have to get some feeler gauges.

The thermometers I have don't seem to be accurate across the entire range (freezing to boiling). I have set them based on the temp of the human body (under my tongue) and judged the boiling temperature to try and calibrate. I'm pretty sure I mashed a few batches too low, as I had to adjust by about 10 degrees when I tried my lame calibration method. After that, my beer did not finish as low gravity wise, but still has the grainy taste.

I'll post a pic of my crush to get your opinions. Thanks for the help.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

If you don't trust your thermometers test them with boiling water (212 degrees) and an ice bath (32 degrees).

Then you should know.

The ice bath will work just fine, it just needs to be a cup full of crushed ice that will fill the entire space when water is added. Physics tells us that it should be 32*F, give or take 0.5*.

As for the boiling water, it will work fine as long as your figure out the boiling temperature of your altitude. The rough estimate, in-your-head conversion is to subtract 1*F for each 500ft above sea level you are. I'm about a mile high, so my boiling point is about 202*F. Stove-top full boils FTW!

 

[smizak]

A lot of brewers associate a "grainy" or "worty" flavor to a less than ideal fermentation. How are your beers attenuating, and what kind of yeast are you using? All things considered, try changing that base malt. I use Briess alot, never the pale malt, but their 2-row is super duper clean to me.

 

[wonderbread23]

Grainy flavors can come from too hot or too long of a sparge which will extract tannins from the husks.

 

[briegg]

My beers attenuate pretty well I think (75-80%)- I have been using US05 (can't seem to justify the switch to liquid yeast yet with the grainy results I keep getting).

I am curious about the sparging possibility - I perform a double batch sparge. Here's my process for a typical 10lb bill / 5 gal batch:

Mash 1 hr - 1.2 qts/lb (about 3 gallons @170 with a preheated tun)

Mashout (just started this) about 2.12 gallons @ 200 (generally raises the temp of the mash to 170ish) - dump it in, stir and drain

1st batch sparge - 1.75 gallons @170 - dump it in, stir, wait 10 minutes, and drain.

2nd batch sparge - 1.75 gallons @170 - dump it in, stir, wait 10 minutes, and drain.

I mash in a rectangular 48qt cooler with a CPVC manifold.


The other thing I am curious about regarding my equipment - I am not sure if I really achieve a "grain bed" of hulls. When I vorlouf, I never get anything other than foggy wort - no big particles. It's too the point where I see no value in it. My beer is really clear when I compare it to other homebrewers I know.

Thanks again for helping me troubleshoot.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Get a thermometer that is accurate.

Your mill speed should be 150-200 rpm.

Mash temp should be 150-158 +/- depending on style.

Make sure your mash temp doesn't get above 170 during mashout.

Slow down your vorlauf and recirculate until it runs clear.

It sound to me like your getting hull particulate in your wort.

Slow down a bit and I think you'll get much better results.

Good luck,

Bull

 

[Starderup]

I am fairly new to AG, but those temps seem pretty high. I shot for about 152 degrees in the two batches I did so far, and no graininess.

 

[IrregularPulse]

My beers attenuate pretty well I think (75-80%)- I have been using US05 (can't seem to justify the switch to liquid yeast yet with the grainy results I keep getting).

I am curious about the sparging possibility - I perform a double batch sparge. Here's my process for a typical 10lb bill / 5 gal batch:

Mash 1 hr - 1.2 qts/lb (about 3 gallons @170 with a preheated tun)

Are you saying you added 3G at 170 or your 1hr rest time is at 170? 170 is too high for a mash temp. You want to shoot between 148-158 for your 1 hour mash depending on the particular beer. lower range for drier beers (pilsners), high range for sweeter beers (stouts). Adding 170 to a fresh cooler isn't bad because the temp will drop once from equalizing with the cooler and again to equalize with the grain. But if your temp is 170 after that and you let it rest for an hour at 170......that is too high.
Adding 170 degree water for mashout is common to bring the grain bed to the 160's. You don't want to go over 170 for the grain temp at any point. I think you're issues likely stem from high temps throughout your whole process.

 

[briegg]

Sorry, I wasn't that clear about the temps. The mash water is @ 170, yielding a mash temp of 149-151. Then I mash out to raise the mash to about 170 ish.

 

[bendavanza]

There's no need to mash out for batch sparge. Especially double batch sparge. If you don't trust your thermometer, get a better one. If you think you're mashing out at 170 you might be over 170 and that could be your flavor issue, and so could over sparging.
The 170 thing is debatable, though, if you consider decoction mashes. I'd lean towards over sparging. mash thinner and sparge less. Vorlauf slowly and until your wort runs clear (hard to tell with stouts) you can't hurt by too much vorlauf, other than losing a little temp, which should not matter much once conversion is complete.

 

[DBear]

I would also check pH. pH for light colored beers can also be the cause of/add to off-flavors (grainy, harsh/astrigent, tanins)

-Cheers

 

[Dr Malt]

The replies here have hit all the things I am aware of that can produce a "grainy" flavor. They are:

The malt - you want good plump 2 row base malt for all grain brews with no chaff (extra husk). You might check and see that the base malt you are using is 2 row and not 6 row and there is not a lot of husk in it.

Mash temepratures - temperatures much above 170 F tend to extract husky, grainy character when coupled with pH.

pH - sparging with water that has a basic pH (above pH 7) extracts tannins and polyphenols that cause a grainy, husky, astringent character to the finished beer. If your sparge or brew water is basic, you can add a little citric acid or other metabolic acid to drop it. You will not need much.

On your next brew, taste a little of your wort as it comes out of the lauder to see if you get a strong grainy character or if you have solved your problem. You should be able to pick up the grainy character at that stage.

Dr Malt

 

[rayg]

Cheer up! At least there's no "extract twang" in there!

Ray

 

[Duster72]

A couple of things. 1) 170 is the highest you want your sparge to get. I would shoot for more like 168. You are pushing it at 170. 2) I don't like the flavor of US05. If you have a consistent flavor you don't like and you use the same yeast everytime....$7 for a good yeast is a lot cheaper than $30 for a batch of beer with a flavor you don't like.

Make a starter and pitch an appropriate amount of yeast. That's the biggest key to making beer that tastes good.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

A couple of things. 1) 170 is the highest you want your sparge to get. I would shoot for more like 168. You are pushing it at 170. 2) I don't like the flavor of US05. If you have a consistent flavor you don't like and you use the same yeast everytime....$7 for a good yeast is a lot cheaper than $30 for a batch of beer with a flavor you don't like.

Make a starter and pitch an appropriate amount of yeast. That's the biggest key to making beer that tastes good.

First off, going a few degrees over 170 isn't going to hurt a beer. I've done it numerous times with no noticeable off flavors.

Second, US-05 is a very good yeast for ANY american beer. If you like 1056 and 001, then 05 is pretty much the same thing with subtle differences that most people wouldn't notice. To each their own opinion, but I've never heard anyone complain about US-05 before. It's a fairly neutral yeast in my opinion. Not to say you can't taste it, but it's not like it's a huge flavor contributor in most beers.

Also, dry yeast isn't near as bad as it once was. I will pick S-04 and US-05 anyday over their wyeast and white labs counterparts. There's no need for starters and I've never been dissappointed by them.