Helle's recipe thoughts

[redrocker652002]

Hey all, my next endeavor is going to be a Helle's that I saw on the Youtube channel for the Apartment Brewer. I really like what he does and it looked easy enough, but now I am having some doubts. Here is the recipe:

9 pounds German Pils
1 pound Vienna malt
4 ounces biscuit malt

1.5 ounces of Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (sp?)

60 minute mash at 152
90 minute boil

This is where I am not sure what to do. I bought a package of dry WLP860 thinking that was going to be enough, but I rewatched the vid and he says to use two packages. Should I buy a second package and go with that, or would one do the trick but just take a bit longer? My plan is to ferment at about 50 degrees for however long it takes as there are no dry hops in this one to worry about.

I know I posted this in another thread but it was an older thread and I was not getting as much feedback as I had hoped. If this is against the rules please delete and let me know.

As always, any and all information is very much appreciated.

 

[rmr9]

I would err on the side of caution and get a second pack. Not only will fermentation move along faster, you’ll be less likely to encounter off flavors from yeast stress.

I’d rather pitch a little more than needed than not enough.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

If you're not doing a starter then I'd grab a second pack.

 

[wepeeler]

If you can step mash I would do a 15 min 122F protein rest and then a 45 min 150F mash. Single infusion, I would go 148-150F max. Ferment at 50-52F straight through. I would def get another pack of yeast. You could probably get away with a 75 min boil.

 

[Broothru]

Hey all, my next endeavor is going to be a Helle's that I saw on the Youtube channel for the Apartment Brewer. I really like what he does and it looked easy enough, but now I am having some doubts. Here is the recipe:

9 pounds German Pils
1 pound Vienna malt
4 ounces biscuit malt

1.5 ounces of Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (sp?)

60 minute mash at 152
90 minute boil

This is where I am not sure what to do. I bought a package of dry WLP860 thinking that was going to be enough, but I rewatched the vid and he says to use two packages. Should I buy a second package and go with that, or would one do the trick but just take a bit longer? My plan is to ferment at about 50 degrees for however long it takes as there are no dry hops in this one to worry about.

I know I posted this in another thread but it was an older thread and I was not getting as much feedback as I had hoped. If this is against the rules please delete and let me know.

As always, any and all information is very much appreciated.

Loose the biscuit.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Loose the biscuit.

Listen to this man.

 

[SonomaBrewer]

Listen to this man.

Couldn’t agree more, biscuit and victory are often misused in Helles recipes. Would take it out. And yes, bigger yeast pitch = better.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Having told you to ditch the biscuit, I suppose we should also offer some positive advice.

My experience suggests that the best possible German Pils plus 10% of the best possible German Munich you can get your hands on is the best grist. You want Munich rather than Vienna because it punches up and sells the malt component without adding color.

Beyond that, eliminate oxygen at every step in the process in which you can eliminate oxygen (aside from oxygenating the yeast). Oxygen kills helles beer because it destroys malt flavor.

 

[Broothru]

Concur with this advice. Didn’t mean to be unnecessarily glib with my response to the OP. If I were at home, I’d share my B of S Helles recipe from last year. I’ll be brewing it next month with a local brewery, but the recipe is on my home PC and not on this phone.

The only change I’d recommend to your suggestions would be a Hoch-Kurz mash, if able. IIRC it used Weyermann Pilsner and Munich I, a touch of acidulated, all Hallertau Mittelfruh, 2L starter pitch of WLP-860. Simple approach is best, concentrating on quality ingredients and solid process. Prost!

 

[Shenanigans]

Oxygen is not needed x

Having told you to ditch the biscuit, I suppose we should also offer some positive advice.

My experience suggests that the best possible German Pils plus 10% of the best possible German Munich you can get your hands on is the best grist. You want Munich rather than Vienna because it punches up and sells the malt component without adding color.

Beyond that, eliminate oxygen at every step in the process in which you can eliminate oxygen (aside from oxygenating the yeast). Oxygen kills helles beer because it destroys malt flavor.

Sound advice but maybe you oversaw he is using dry yeast. No need to aerate for that. See below link for example, 12 years old but post 3 explains why quite good.

https://forum.northernbrewer.com/t/why-no-o2-for-dry-yeast/19627/4

I think some of the other posts about 2l starters also overlooked that he has the dry version of the yeast.
I don't know the cell count for White labs dry yeasts but if like other manufactures and fermenting at lager temperatures then a second pack would be recommended.
WLP860 liquid yeast performs well at ale temperatures where 1 pack would be enough for a relatively low alc beer like a helles so the dry version should be the samebut that's a whole other rabbit hole to go down
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/warm-fermented-lager-thread.592169/

 

[redrocker652002]

Thank you for the reply. If I decide to go with just one package, will it just mean I will need to ferment longer? Or will there be off flavors produced because the yeast is working too hard?

The other option is I have two mason jars of saved 34/70 from a previous batch, I can use that if it is better. They are two 8oz mason jars about half full with yeast and beer on top of it. They have been in the fridge for about a month, so I am sure a starter is going to be needed. The only thing is I used that yeast to make a lager with Honey Nut Cheerios in it, so I am not sure that will affect the flavor of my Helles.

 

[ntempleton]

Thank you for the reply. If I decide to go with just one package, will it just mean I will need to ferment longer? Or will there be off flavors produced because the yeast is working too hard?

The other option is I have two mason jars of saved 34/70 from a previous batch, I can use that if it is better. They are two 8oz mason jars about half full with yeast and beer on top of it. They have been in the fridge for about a month, so I am sure a starter is going to be needed. The only thing is I used that yeast to make a lager with Honey Nut Cheerios in it, so I am not sure that will affect the flavor of my Helles.

You need 3-4 packs to get a proper lager rate - 1.5(million cells / ml / degree plato). If you want to use a single pack, you'll need to make a 2 liter starter (using a stir plate).

Here's a link to a yeast calculator:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

[redrocker652002]

Ouch, now we are up to 3 to 4? Wow, this might get a bit expensive. LOL. Maybe I will look at liquid versions while I am at the local place I am going to check out

 

[redrocker652002]

You need 3-4 packs to get a proper lager rate - 1.5(million cells / ml / degree plato). If you want to use a single pack, you'll need to make a 2 liter starter (using a stir plate).

Here's a link to a yeast calculator:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

So, would the saved 34/70 work, see above post, even though it might have some spend honey nut cheerios in it?

 

[ntempleton]

Ouch, now we are up to 3 to 4? Wow, this might get a bit expensive. LOL. Maybe I will look at liquid versions while I am at the local place I am going to check out

I really hate to cause more distress, but generally liquid yeast has even less cells than the dry packages.

If you don't want to stress about it, use 2 packs and RDWHAHB. Once lagerbier takes over the entirety of your brewing, than you can really dive into proper yeast pitch rates.

 

[Miraculix]

Just make a starter with one pack 3470, step up once and you should be good.

 

[redrocker652002]

Just make a starter with one pack 3470, step up once and you should be good.

Would the saved 34/70 work? I am really wanting to get into doing yeast banks but I know my luck and it never works. LOL.

 

[Broothru]

Finally got home from our trip to Wisconsin and Father’s Day camping in Pennsylvania, so here’s the recipe for Munich Helles I had promised, that I brewed last year for competition:

Floor Malted Czech Pilsner 85.6%
Munich I 8.9%
Acidulated 3.3%
CaraFoam 2.2%

Hallertau Mittelfruh :FWH 4.5 IBUs
Hallertau Mittelfruh :15 min. 5.0 IBUs
Hallertau Mittelfruh :05 min. 6.3 IBUs

Lactic acid added at :05 before flame out to acidify to pH 4.8
ALDC enzyme added at yeast pitch

I had mistakenly said I had used WLP-860 Munich Lager yeast. It was actually fermented with Lallemand NovaLager under 1 BAR pressure @ 65F for 6 days (5 points above predicted Final Gravity), then raised temperature to 73F until Final Gravity and negative test for diacetyl (about 3 days). Cold crash @ 3C/per day to 38F. Lager for 4 weeks.

Final Numbers:
OG 1.049
FG 1.012
ABV 4.9%
IBUs 15.8
SRM 3.8

SO4 to Cl ratio 1.3
IBU/SG. 0.360

Water Profile:
Ca 40.2
Mg 13.0
Na 42.1
Cl 47.0
SO4 60.2
HCO3 135.1

Scored 41 pts and won Best in Category and Best of Show in a local BJCP competition.

 

[rmr9]

Would the saved 34/70 work? I am really wanting to get into doing yeast banks but I know my luck and it never works. LOL.

I think it would work to use the 34/70 - but I would build a starter with that to make sure you’ve got good yeast viability and activity.

This is basically what I do with my lagers. First batch has a starter built, then I save the cake when I keg. Usually a month or so goes by before I use it so I build a smallish starter with the saved yeast and repeat as needed. I haven’t gone further than 4 batches this way though.

 

[Miraculix]

Would the saved 34/70 work? I am really wanting to get into doing yeast banks but I know my luck and it never works. LOL.

If everything was properly sanitised, including the last batch of beer and the equipment, it should be good with a starter. If you are concerned about the cheerios, just use a small portion of it and step it up in a starter multiple times.

 

[rmr9]

I think the Cheerios would be plenty diluted especially if you decant off the top liquid before making your starter. I went from a dark dunkel to medium colored märzen to a pils and I didn’t notice any carryover in darkness or appearance. I imagine would be similar with a cheerio beer

 

[redrocker652002]

OK, so I made an adjustment and went with a 75 minute boil. My preboil gravity was supposed to be 1.045 and I ended up at 1.051. Now that calculates, by Grainfather anyway, to be 91% efficiency? Dang, that is not bad. LOL

 

[redrocker652002]

OK, so OG is set at 1.055 I will try and update as I go along.

 

[redrocker652002]

OK, so I am at 36 hours in the fermenter at 50 degrees and very little to no activity as of yet. Maybe a slight change in the liquid level in the airlock but that is about it. I am going to keep it going, I have nothing else in the works as of yet, but I am wondering if this is going to be a lost cause. Two packets of WLP860 pitched at about 60 degrees and brought down to 50 in the chamber. Anybody have issues with this yeast, dry, taking a while to get going?

 

[redrocker652002]

Finally at close to the 40 hour mark I am seeing some movement in the airlock. Not much mind you, a bubble every two to five seconds, but it looks like the yeast cake is starting to rise and do it's thing. We will see. I am going to take a gravity reading probably in a day or two and see where we are. That will move the yeast around due to having to take the bucket out of the fermenter fridge. Stay tuned.

 

[redrocker652002]

Update, it seems to be moving along nicely now. Steady stream of bubbles out of the airlock, so maybe it was just a slow start. I am going to check the gravity maybe either Saturday or Sunday depending on what the airlock shows me. If it is still going at a decent pace I will check it during the week. I am now hopeful this is going to turn out good. I will also try and save a jar of the yeast for possible future use. Rock ON!!!!!!

 

[redrocker652002]

Well, just a quick update. We still have activity in the airlock, so gravity reading will probably wait until tomorrow. It isn't blowing the lid off the fermenter, but is somewhat steady, so I will take that.

 

[redrocker652002]

Yet another update. Opened the fermenter fridge yesterday and was hit with a Sulphur smell of a very strong kind. Going to take a gravity reading today or tomorrow but seem to remember this is a part of the process and now I need to start upping the temp in the chamber to room temp? I know I have read many times it will work its way out, but dang it was strong. Any input here would be most appreciated.

 

[Bassman2003]

Just keep letting it ride. Slow start usually means long fermentation. It will need to go at its pace now. The sulfur/sulphur is a bi-product of fermentation and hopefully will mostly get eaten back up by the yeast. One of the reasons why one does not want to underpitch a lager beer.

If you can be patient, do not raise the temp of the beer until at least 50% of the F.G. is reached.

As far as keeping the yeast in mason jars, it will only really be useful for up to 2 weeks. A month and a lot of it will be dead or dying. A "yeast brink" is the better way which stored the yeast in a 100% CO2 environment. But that can be something down the road for you to pick up.

 

[redrocker652002]

Did a quick gravity check. Started at 1.051 about 8 days ago. Currently at 1.029. According to Brewfather it should finish about 1.014, but I was a few points high on my OG, so my FG probably will be in the 1.016 to .018 range I am guessing. Being that it has really only started showing activity about 3 to 4 days ago, I am not completely surprised. I go back to work this week so I am won't touch it again until next sunday at the earliest. This is all very new to me as most of my yeasts start within 24 hours and finish within 3 or 4 days. But in the air of what I tell others, patience is a virtue. LOL

 

[redrocker652002]

Just keep letting it ride. Slow start usually means long fermentation. It will need to go at its pace now. The sulfur/sulphur is a bi-product of fermentation and hopefully will mostly get eaten back up by the yeast. One of the reasons why one does not want to underpitch a lager beer.

If you can be patient, do not raise the temp of the beer until at least 50% of the F.G. is reached.

As far as keeping the yeast in mason jars, it will only really be useful for up to 2 weeks. A month and a lot of it will be dead or dying. A "yeast brink" is the better way which stored the yeast in a 100% CO2 environment. But that can be something down the road for you to pick up.

Thank you for the words of encouragement. This is a new style for me so the learning curve is very high. I am about at 50% or so now, but going to leave it at 52 degrees or so for now. The beer I used for the gravity reading did not smell really bad so that is encouraging.

The post regarding yeast in the fridge bums me out a bit, but doesn't surprise me. I was thinking of just messing around and trying to get a starter out of it, but it has been in the fridge for probably two months is not longer. I had used some bry97 that had been in the fridge that long, but it took a long time to get going and not really sure it was that good to start with. Dry yeast still isn't too bad price wise, so what the heck. My end goal is to do vials of different strains like one of the sticky's here explains and outlines, but I just don't have all the stuff yet and wife won't give up the freezer space. LOL. Again, thank you for the input. I appreciate it.

 

[Bassman2003]

No worries. The big goal of lagers is to get them to attenuate down to 80%+ apparent attenuation. So in your case, 1.011 or 1.010. Since this is 1st generation dry yeast, maybe bump up the temperature by a few degrees a day starting now until you get to say 65F. Then let it finish at 1.011/1.010 (if it can) which still might take some time, but the beer will not be flabby.

For the next lager brew, mash longer in the 140's to make it easier to reach the lower final gravity numbers. Beta is the key for good lagers.

 

[redrocker652002]

Latest update: Gravity check and it is at 1.012 which is very close to what Brewfather and Grainfather say it should be. It smells very lagerish and I am not getting any sulphur smell at all. A quick sip and I don't get any butter or popcorn taste either so I am thinking it is probably done. So, at this point is it advisable to bring it up to room temp for a bit or just leave it alone? I won't be able to keg it until next week probably as my serving keg needs to be cleaned and sanitized. Any input is welcome as this is new territory for me.

 

[Bassman2003]

The room temp idea works best before you get to the finish line as the yeast would still be active. Now that they are "done" raising the temp does not do too much as we are trying to spur more yeast activity by raising the temperature. It is all about the yeast.

 

[redrocker652002]

I am going to just leave it be until next week. That gives me time to get my keg cleaned and sanitized and clean the lines and tap. Move it to the keg, then let it carb and cold crash. I am looking forward to this one as it has taken a lot longer than most.

 

[Bassman2003]

Cool. It is a learning curve. For future lagers you can look into trying to get the FG lower (longer beta mash rest & more yeast) and trying spunding in your keg (transferring the beer 3-4 points above where it will finish and letting the beer naturally carbonate). Keep us updated as the beer conditions and goes on tap!

 

[wepeeler]

I would advise keeping it cool all the way through. No need to let it get to room temp. Cold crash and package when ready.

 

[redrocker652002]

I would advise keeping it cool all the way through. No need to let it get to room temp. Cold crash and package when ready.

I think that is what I am going to do. Leave it at about 52 for now, keg it next week and drop it down to serving temp and carb at the same time.

 

[redrocker652002]

Well, as life has gotten in the way I will not be able to keg until next week. It continues to sit in the bucket in my ferm fridge at about 52 or so. I am guessing another few days isn't going to hurt it but I guess we will see. LOL.

 

[wepeeler]

Well, as life has gotten in the way I will not be able to keg until next week. It continues to sit in the bucket in my ferm fridge at about 52 or so. I am guessing another few days isn't going to hurt it but I guess we will see. LOL.

That style sat in caves for months. I think you're fine