Having problems with harsh bitterness in a lot of my beers

[Sleepy_D]

While I agree that you had a high ph between the salt additions to ro water combined 8 gallons for a light and small grain bill. I also wonder how you handle the hops post boil.

Do you filter out the hops before fermenting?
I used to get a lot of hop burn when everything made it into the fermenter. Your hop bill is light but if it all sat in the fermenter long enough to ferment a pilsner you could be getting bitterness from the plant matter sitting in the beer too long in addition to the tannins from high ph. This is sometimes described as hop burn in the back of the throat.

I try to catch it all with a strainer/cheese cloth combo but I’m sure some got in there. Is this something that can be removed with fining? The sample I was tasting was not clear at all yet (it looked clear in the fermenter so I thought it was chill haze). I added gelatin tonight to it

 

[gello22]

I try to catch it all with a strainer/cheese cloth combo but I’m sure some got in there. Is this something that can be removed with fining? The sample I was tasting was not clear at all yet (it looked clear in the fermenter so I thought it was chill haze). I added gelatin tonight to it

If you are doing some kind of straining combined with the relatively small hop bill then it is most likely not hop burn and I would just focus on the previous advice relative to mash ph.

 

[Sleepy_D]

If you are doing some kind of straining combined with the relatively small hop bill then it is most likely not hop burn and I would just focus on the previous advice relative to mash ph.

I’m going to order some lactic acid and a ph probe tonight

 

[couchsending]

Make sure you learn how to use the pH meter. It needs to be stored correctly and calibrated often. I’d recommend the Milwaukee ones. They might be a bit more expensive but this is a very important tool that needs to be treated well. I’ve got a MW-102 that I’ve used for over 400 brews by now. I replace the probe every now and again but it’s been well worth the money.

Brewing without a pH meter is like driving without a Speedometer. pH can tell you how the entire process is working from before you mash in to final beer. It’s a very easy way to to diagnose problems and really will teach you a lot more about the whole process.

Mash pH is important but measuring and adjusting pH at numerous stages throughout the hotside process can really help you to refine your process and make much better beer.

For most beers with RO water I’m measuring mash ph after 30 minutes then again right before sparge just to confirm nothing changed dramatically. I’ll measure last runnings pH as well as kettle full pH. Depending on the beer I’ll adjust pH to a specific target before the boil or sometimes at 30. I’ll then measure again around 10 and again depending on the beer adjust with 5 minutes left. Always measure the pH going into the fermenter. I’ll then measure with every gravity sample during fermentation.

Everyone of those measurements will tell you how the entire process is working and if you have a potential issue. Then if you do end up with an issue in your final beer it’s much easier to diagnose it by looking at your notes and seeing where pH might have been out of whack.

 

[Sleepy_D]

Make sure you learn how to use the pH meter. It needs to be stored correctly and calibrated often. I’d recommend the Milwaukee ones. They might be a bit more expensive but this is a very important tool that needs to be treated well. I’ve got a MW-102 that I’ve used for over 400 brews by now. I replace the probe every now and again but it’s been well worth the money.

Brewing without a pH meter is like driving without a Speedometer. pH can tell you how the entire process is working from before you mash in to final beer. It’s a very easy way to to diagnose problems and really will teach you a lot more about the whole process.

Mash pH is important but measuring and adjusting pH at numerous stages throughout the hotside process can really help you to refine your process and make much better beer.

For most beers with RO water I’m measuring mash ph after 30 minutes then again right before sparge just to confirm nothing changed dramatically. I’ll measure last runnings pH as well as kettle full pH. Depending on the beer I’ll adjust pH to a specific target before the boil or sometimes at 30. I’ll then measure again around 10 and again depending on the beer adjust with 5 minutes left. Always measure the pH going into the fermenter. I’ll then measure with every gravity sample during fermentation.

Everyone of those measurements will tell you how the entire process is working and if you have a potential issue. Then if you do end up with an issue in your final beer it’s much easier to diagnose it by looking at your notes and seeing where pH might have been out of whack.

I actually bought a Milwaukee one this morning from my local shop! I went with the handheld “pen” version instead of a standard one with a replaceable probe like yours. I work in a quality control lab for my day job so luckily I’m well versed in ph probe maintenance (unfortunately that also means I have no excuse for not doing this earlier but my own laziness).
When you take measurements after the initial mash ph check do you keep making adjustments to keep it at 5.3ish? Even once all the wort is collected before the boil?

 

[couchsending]

I actually bought a Milwaukee one this morning from my local shop! I went with the handheld “pen” version instead of a standard one with a replaceable probe like yours. I work in a quality control lab for my day job so luckily I’m well versed in ph probe maintenance (unfortunately that also means I have no excuse for not doing this earlier but my own laziness).
When you take measurements after the initial mash ph check do you keep making adjustments to keep it at 5.3ish? Even once all the wort is collected before the boil?

5.3-5.4 might be optimal for mash but there’s a good chance your pH will increase slightly towards the end of sparge. Depending on your water. Even with straight RO you will get a slight increase but with water with any alkalinity you could get a decent pH spike at the end of sparge. You have to watch out for this.

pH in the boil has an effect on hop isomerization, protein coagulation, and DMS reduction. Start of the boil pH of 5.4 is optimum for all those but doesn’t mean you might not want lower for a specific beer style. Generally you wouldn’t want higher.

End of the boil pH should be adjust to 5.1 or under at say 5-10 minutes left in the boil. pH optimum for kettle finings is 5.1 and kettle finings should be added with less than 5 minutes left (not at 15 like you e probably been told, they denature). Lowering the knock out pH gives the yeast a helping hand. They naturally lower pH on their own, giving them a head start just helps with fermentation health and speed.

How much natural pH drop you get during the boil depends on a lot of variables so you need a measure often to understand it better. In my experience darker wort tends to drop much more during the boil than lighter colored wort.

Measuring fermentation pH can give you a great indication on how healthy your fermentation is and how vital or healthy your yeast is. It changes by yeast strain but most ale yeast will drop beer pH to 4.2-4.4, lager yeasts a bit higher. But that varies by strain really. There are pH optimums for certain chemical reactions that relate to dry hopping as well as diacetyl pick up.

 

[Sleepy_D]

5.3-5.4 might be optimal for mash but there’s a good chance your pH will increase slightly towards the end of sparge. Depending on your water. Even with straight RO you will get a slight increase but with water with any alkalinity you could get a decent pH spike at the end of sparge. You have to watch out for this.

pH in the boil has an effect on hop isomerization, protein coagulation, and DMS reduction. Start of the boil pH of 5.4 is optimum for all those but doesn’t mean you might not want lower for a specific beer style. Generally you wouldn’t want higher.

End of the boil pH should be adjust to 5.1 or under at say 5-10 minutes left in the boil. pH optimum for kettle finings is 5.1 and kettle finings should be added with less than 5 minutes left (not at 15 like you e probably been told, they denature). Lowering the knock out pH gives the yeast a helping hand. They naturally lower pH on their own, giving them a head start just helps with fermentation health and speed.

How much natural pH drop you get during the boil depends on a lot of variables so you need a measure often to understand it better. In my experience darker wort tends to drop much more during the boil than lighter colored wort.

Measuring fermentation pH can give you a great indication on how healthy your fermentation is and how vital or healthy your yeast is. It changes by yeast strain but most ale yeast will drop beer pH to 4.2-4.4, lager yeasts a bit higher. But that varies by strain really. There are pH optimums for certain chemical reactions that relate to dry hopping as well as diacetyl pick up.

By kettle finings do you mean things like whirlfloc? I’ve always added it at 15 minutes

 

[couchsending]

By kettle finings do you mean things like whirlfloc? I’ve always added it at 15 minutes

Yup add it at 5 not 15

 

[Sleepy_D]

Yup add it at 5 not 15

Awesome will do. I have not heard that before, thank you for all the info that is really helpful

 

[Sleepy_D]

Hey @Yooper i have a couple questions before I brew again this weekend. I’m using a recipe that provides a target water profile and the amount of salts they add to reach that profile in their brew in a bag system (I believe everything is added in the beginning because of the system they use). Since I do not do brew in a bag I was thinking I should add the same quantities of salts (since i use the same total water volume between mash and sparge) but all to my initial mash water, adjust to 5.3 with lactic acid, batch sparge with just RO. my questions are:

1. Should I add all my salts in the mash water like that? I believe I want all the salts so the final beer has the right stuff and not just the mash process
2. Should I adjust the sparge water to 5.3 after adding it as well? I don’t fly sparge so I have the opportunity to adjust the water again after adding my sparge water before I run it off after 5-10 minutes.
3. Should I check and adjust my pre and post boil ph measuremens? Or if I do the mashing and sparging correctly is this not needed/excessive?

thank you for all the advice you have given me so far!

 

[SteveRohe]

Check your Alpha rating. If your bittering hop is rated more than 6 percent you may have a problem here. To start with. If your hop alpha is 14 percent, try just simply using half the amount. Some recipes are way over on the hoping. For some reason, Americans love to over hop their brews. To me, it taste like a bowl full of hops with water poured on it. The original IPA was propably made in a helmet in a trench on the battle field. ( Just joking.) The Brittish made beer for their conscripted soldiers. They did not spend a whole lot on the ingredients, including hops.

 

[SteveRohe]

Another point to remember: don't burn it, just brew it. I know people will argue about flavour but when you boil, does your wort look like Corryvreckan? I don't know about others but I bring it 'just to a boil'. This also will yield a higher alcohol content. Imagine if you were a yeast cell and you were forced to consume a burnt up mess. Go easy on your heat. Over heating can actually increase an unwanted bitterness. Oh, and by the way, never sail directly into Corryvreckan.

 

[couchsending]

1. Should I add all my salts in the mash water like that? I believe I want all the salts so the final beer has the right stuff and not just the mash process
2. Should I adjust the sparge water to 5.3 after adding it as well? I don’t fly sparge so I have the opportunity to adjust the water again after adding my sparge water before I run it off after 5-10 minutes.
3. Should I check and adjust my pre and post boil ph measuremens? Or if I do the mashing and sparging correctly is this not needed/excessive?

thank you for all the advice you have given me so far!

1: Add your mash salts to the mash. Add salts destined for the sparge to the kettle. If you add them all to the mash/sparge you can potentially lose 50% of the calcium in the mash. All the CL and So4 ions make it through but you leave behind Ca with the malt.

2: if you’re using RO you don’t need to adjust the pH. There’s virtually no buffering capacity to RO. For a standard 5/6 gallon batch it would literally be drops of lactic. You don’t need it. Sometimes I will add a little bit of calcium salts to the sparge water as it does seem to prevent a slight increase in pH towards the end of sparge but it’s really not critical.

3. I recommend always checking pre and post boil pH. This is a hazy IPA you’re brewing right? Lower your preboil pH to 5.0. It will prevent protein coagulation and lower the extraction of bitterness. It lets you add more hops to the boil to extract flavor without the bitterness. You don’t even need wheat or oats if you do this. It will create a permanent haze with a nice well rounded soft bitterness. If you adjust at the beginning for this beer you most likely won’t need to adjust at the end. But it’s always worth checking. Hops increase pH. Certain hops more than others (whole cone hops increase it more than pellets). If you add a lot of hops to the hotside or WP there’s a chance your pH might go up. Always worth checking. Try to get the wort to be right around 5.0 when it goes into the fermenter.

 

[marc1]

Hey @Yooper i have a couple questions before I brew again this weekend. I’m using a recipe that provides a target water profile and the amount of salts they add to reach that profile in their brew in a bag system (I believe everything is added in the beginning because of the system they use). Since I do not do brew in a bag I was thinking I should add the same quantities of salts (since i use the same total water volume between mash and sparge) but all to my initial mash water, adjust to 5.3 with lactic acid, batch sparge with just RO. my questions are:

1. Should I add all my salts in the mash water like that? I believe I want all the salts so the final beer has the right stuff and not just the mash process
2. Should I adjust the sparge water to 5.3 after adding it as well? I don’t fly sparge so I have the opportunity to adjust the water again after adding my sparge water before I run it off after 5-10 minutes.
3. Should I check and adjust my pre and post boil ph measuremens? Or if I do the mashing and sparging correctly is this not needed/excessive?

thank you for all the advice you have given me so far!

Posting the recipe and salt additions here would be helpful to make sure that it is not a bad/weird recipe.

 

[Sleepy_D]

Posting the recipe and salt additions here would be helpful to make sure that it is not a bad/weird recipe.

Good call, doing a Munich helles. Was going to use the recipe based on the one by Mean Brews:


9 lbs pilsner
8 oz Munich (6*L)
5 oz carapils
3 oz melanoidin

Single infusion mash at 150 for 1 hr

1.2 oz hallertauer mittelfrueh at 60 min
0.8 oz hallertauer mittelfrueh at 5 min

Target water: Ca: 45, Mg: 7, Na: 14, SO: 67, Cl: 73. To get close to that I was going to add 2 g gypsum, 1 g NaCl, 2 g Epsom, 3 g CaCl

Should come out to OG: 10.52, FG 1.011, abv 5.37%, ibus 18.3, srm 3.92

Mean brews recommends a step mash but I was going to do single infusion to simplify.

 

[marc1]

Good call, doing a Munich helles. Was going to use the recipe based on the one by Mean Brews:


9 lbs pilsner
8 oz Munich (6*L)
5 oz carapils
3 oz melanoidin

Single infusion mash at 150 for 1 hr

1.2 oz hallertauer mittelfrueh at 60 min
0.8 oz hallertauer mittelfrueh at 5 min

Target water: Ca: 45, Mg: 7, Na: 14, SO: 67, Cl: 73. To get close to that I was going to add 2 g gypsum, 1 g NaCl, 2 g Epsom, 3 g CaCl

Should come out to OG: 10.52, FG 1.011, abv 5.37%, ibus 18.3, srm 3.92

Mean brews recommends a step mash but I was going to do single infusion to simplify.

The specific water values are going to depend on the overall volumes, but it looks reasonable. I would add the salts to the total water used (mash and sparge). You can use water chemistry software to estimate mash pH if you want, to see if you might need lactic to get your mash pH where you want it.

 

[Sleepy_D]

The specific water values are going to depend on the overall volumes, but it looks reasonable. I would add the salts to the total water used (mash and sparge). You can use water chemistry software to estimate mash pH if you want, to see if you might need lactic to get your mash pH where you want it.

Ok great, that was my plan. I got a ph probe and lactic acid since my last brew day

 

[marc1]

Ok great, that was my plan. I got a ph probe and lactic acid since my last brew day

Nice!

Just don't measure the mash pH and try to adjust it on the fly. Add your estimated acid (if necessary) to the mash water with your salts and then measure you mash pH mid-mash to see how accurate it was.

Boil pH is adjustable in-process. There's software to estimate how much acid to add, and you can measure and adjust as you want.

 

[Sleepy_D]

Nice!

Just don't measure the mash pH and try to adjust it on the fly. Add your estimated acid (if necessary) to the mash water with your salts and then measure you mash pH mid-mash to see how accurate it was.

Boil pH is adjustable in-process. There's software to estimate how much acid to add, and you can measure and adjust as you want.

What is the ph I want to shoot for before and after the boil?

actuslly I just looked this up and found 5.2-5.4 pre and 5.0ish post. Sound right?

 

[marc1]

What is the ph I want to shoot for before and after the boil?

actuslly I just looked this up and found 5.2-5.4 pre and 5.0ish post. Sound right?

I usually aim for 5.1 to 5.2 post boil, but @couchsending above has some interesting commentary on adjusting pre-boil to 5.0. I'll probably try that out for my next beer of this style.

 

[Yooper]

Hey @Yooper i have a couple questions before I brew again this weekend. I’m using a recipe that provides a target water profile and the amount of salts they add to reach that profile in their brew in a bag system (I believe everything is added in the beginning because of the system they use). Since I do not do brew in a bag I was thinking I should add the same quantities of salts (since i use the same total water volume between mash and sparge) but all to my initial mash water, adjust to 5.3 with lactic acid, batch sparge with just RO. my questions are:

1. Should I add all my salts in the mash water like that? I believe I want all the salts so the final beer has the right stuff and not just the mash process
2. Should I adjust the sparge water to 5.3 after adding it as well? I don’t fly sparge so I have the opportunity to adjust the water again after adding my sparge water before I run it off after 5-10 minutes.
3. Should I check and adjust my pre and post boil ph measuremens? Or if I do the mashing and sparging correctly is this not needed/excessive?

thank you for all the advice you have given me so far!

I just saw this- so I hope it’s not too late! Salts will bring down the mash pH a bit, so when I BIAB I almost always add all my salts and it often reduces the amount of acid I have to add. You’ll not want to add salts just because others do it- you’ll want to add salts and acid to get the proper mash pH, as well as add salts for flavor. Remember, less is more!
No- sparge with RO water. And never add chalk/lime/baking soda to sparge water.
You will want to check the mash pH about 10 minutes in, but by then it’s often too late to really act on much. Use some software to get a good estimate and hope for the best. You don’t need to worry about sparge water pH if you’re using RO water.

 

[Sleepy_D]

I just saw this- so I hope it’s not too late! Salts will bring down the mash pH a bit, so when I BIAB I almost always add all my salts and it often reduces the amount of acid I have to add. You’ll not want to add salts just because others do it- you’ll want to add salts and acid to get the proper mash pH, as well as add salts for flavor. Remember, less is more!
No- sparge with RO water. And never add chalk/lime/baking soda to sparge water.
You will want to check the mash pH about 10 minutes in, but by then it’s often too late to really act on much. Use some software to get a good estimate and hope for the best. You don’t need to worry about sparge water pH if you’re using RO water.

It is not too late, I’m brewing in a couple hours, thank you!

 

[Sleepy_D]

I just saw this- so I hope it’s not too late! Salts will bring down the mash pH a bit, so when I BIAB I almost always add all my salts and it often reduces the amount of acid I have to add. You’ll not want to add salts just because others do it- you’ll want to add salts and acid to get the proper mash pH, as well as add salts for flavor. Remember, less is more!
No- sparge with RO water. And never add chalk/lime/baking soda to sparge water.
You will want to check the mash pH about 10 minutes in, but by then it’s often too late to really act on much. Use some software to get a good estimate and hope for the best. You don’t need to worry about sparge water pH if you’re using RO water.

So to clarify here you say all salts go in for the mash. Should I do the amounts I listed above which was for 8 gallons (total water used between mash and sparge) and put it all in the sparge water, or should I cut those amounts in half since it’s all going in the mash

 

[Sleepy_D]

Just to update, I’m currently making my Helles, added all my salts to my mash water plus 1 ml of lactic acid, the first runnings came out with a ph of 5.3. I checked it at 10 minutes in and saw 5.1, but the temperature exceeded the upper limit of my Milwaukee ph meter and I think it wasnt correcting for temperature correctly.

Thank you to everyone who helped me with this!

 

[hottpeper13]

The industry does ambient temp wort to place the meter in. The probes last longer and it is repeatable. I take out about 20 ml in a 50 ml beaker and with ice in the palm of my hand cool it to between 60-68.

 

[Sleepy_D]

The industry does ambient temp wort to place the meter in. The probes last longer and it is repeatable. I take out about 20 ml in a 50 ml beaker and with ice in the palm of my hand cool it to between 60-68.

Ah ok, I didn’t bother with that because the probe said it has automatic temp adjustments. If that wears out the probe I’ll stop doing that

 

[Yooper]

So to clarify here you say all salts go in for the mash. Should I do the amounts I listed above which was for 8 gallons (total water used between mash and sparge) and put it all in the sparge water, or should I cut those amounts in half since it’s all going in the mash

I don’t know. I don’t know the recipe, the type of additions, if the additions will drive your mash pH too low, etc. However, I will say that you don’t normally add anything without knowing your water chemistry and if those additions are needed. A recipe doesn’t know your water,, so normally would have only ingredients and then a suggested water profile (not additions).

 

[Sleepy_D]

I don’t know. I don’t know the recipe, the type of additions, if the additions will drive your mash pH too low, etc. However, I will say that you don’t normally add anything without knowing your water chemistry and if those additions are needed. A recipe doesn’t know your water,, so normally would have only ingredients and then a suggested water profile (not additions).

The recipe I was following was using distilled water so that everything can be duplicated by anyone, sorry I should have clarified that