Grodziskie/Gratzer Water Profile

[BrewMan13]

My grodziskie. Very satisfied with the result. Going 100% oak smoked next time but other than that I wouldn't change anything.

 

[beren]

It might be blasphemy, but has anyone considered adding (real, clean) liquid smoke to the beer to up the smokiness? It may only need a few drops per gallon, who knows, it would need some testing.

I also wonder about the lower gravity. If for 700 years it was brewed stronger, and when war/taxes caused the gravity to drop and people stopped drinking it, wouldn't it be logical to consider the low gravity version sucked and that's why it's had trouble finding people to drink it?

 

[beren]

Yes, that's true: when you up the gravity you stray away from the style, which should be crisp, light, sparkling and very light-bodied.

Which style? The historic one, or the single commercial example that was around for Michael Jackson to taste? The more I learn about beer and styles, the more it seems the homebrew world is mostly revolving around the (great) work of a single person, and his perceptions of what he tasted. I'm all for guidelines so a beer is recognizable, but with beers like this I wonder if they do more harm than good.

 

[AlexKay]

It might be blasphemy, but has anyone considered adding (real, clean) liquid smoke to the beer to up the smokiness? It may only need a few drops per gallon, who knows, it would need some testing.

I also wonder about the lower gravity. If for 700 years it was brewed stronger, and when war/taxes caused the gravity to drop and people stopped drinking it, wouldn't it be logical to consider the low gravity version sucked and that's why it's had trouble finding people to drink it?

I make my Grodziskie using Sugar Creek's Grodziskie malt. It looks to be out of stock at the moment, though if you're interested it might be worth dropping them an email -- they sometimes have new malt available but don't update the website, and/or they can tell you when it's due back. In any case, it's much more heavily smoked than the Weyermann; I get a stronger smoke flavor at ~15% of the grist (with the balance white wheat.) It's also just the thing for adding oak smoke to other styles (e.g., Doppelbock) without having to rearrange the whole recipe.

I've made Grodziskie and consider it some of my best beer. I've had others' ... all at around 4% ABV. You can absolutely make a fantastic beer at that strength. Authentic? I have no idea, and then there's your point that "authentic" doesn't necessarily even mean something clear for an old, evolving style without extant traditional brewers. But it certainly doesn't need to be strong to be good.

I wish session beers got more love in general. I'd happily do a Thanos-style snap and get rid of half of the triple IPAs and monster pastry stouts that are out there if it got me more bitters and milds and Kolsches.

Then again, ask me about the Imperial Eiskolsch I once made...

 

[Protos]

Which style? The historic one, or the single commercial example that was around for Michael Jackson to taste?

Frankly I don't really know much about what Michael Jackson wrote on the style. Just no great need in his expertise when a trove of vastly more direct sources and evidences exist. My idea on the style is based on official industrial standards and detailed guidelines issued in Poland in the 1970s-1980s. It seems there wasn't a huge substyle variety in Grodziskie production, and when there was one in the early 1990s (when dark Grodziskie, part-Barley Grodziskie and stronger Grodziskie hit the market), it happened only in the last 2 or 3 years of its production as an experimental (and ultimately futile) attempt to keep the failing local industry afloat.

The Redivivus project in Poland which researched and published most of those sources is definitely not under the Jackson's influence. Many of them, after all, used to be regular drinkers of Grodziskie beer themselves and enjoyed the lucky possibility to drink the original Grätzer more often and in greater quantities than the Beer Hunter ever might dream of

One might say, well we've got a fairly clear idea on what the style was like in the 1970-90s, but what about the Grätzers of the Imperial German time or of the Interwar Period? I'd say, grounding on the descriptions thoroughly extracted from the contemporary sources, the vintage renditions of the style didn't seem strikingly different from what was brewed in Poland in the 1980s. No mentions on dark, mixed grist or strong versions whatsoever.

Grätzer was (and still is) a pretty narrow-defined local style, so if Jackson says it should be light, bright, champaigne-like and efferviscent, then he says right. Grätzer should be exactly like that and there's a lack of historical evidence to think otherwise.

 

[beren]

One might say, well we've got a fairly clear idea on what the style was like in the 1970-90s, but what about the Grätzers of the Imperial German time or of the Interwar Period? I'd say, grounding on the descriptions thoroughly extracted from the contemporary sources, the vintage renditions of the style didn't seem strikingly different from what was brewed in Poland in the 1980s. No mentions on dark, mixed grist or strong versions whatsoever.

Grätzer was (and still is) a pretty narrow-defined local style, so if Jackson says it should be light, bright, champaigne-like and efferviscent, then he says right. Grätzer should be exactly like that and there's a lack of historical evidence to think otherwise.

Apparently some was found for the radical brewing book. See the pages Grodziskie/Gratzer Water Profile Seems just like Britain, Germany taxed the life out of beer in the early 20th century. He quotes a 1.057 OG in 1884. Grodziskie/Grätzer also has some bits on taxes. I wish I could find where the 1884 gravity is quoted from.

Session beers are ok, but I prefer a 4.5-5.5 beer, and I wonder if the change in gravity had anything to do with the style falling out of favor over time.

"It’s talking about the wholesale price of draught beer in the Brausteuergebiet (all of German territory at the time, except Bavaria, Baden, Württemburg, Alsace Lorraine and Luxemburg) ...

What’s interesting is:

• Grätzer is the only specific style named;
• even the weakest bottom-fermenting beer is the same price as the best top-fermenting beer.

I think it’s safe to assume that at this time Grätzer was pretty well-known.

I also notice the version in Radical Brewing is more highly hopped, 44IBU vs the 20 or so recommended by the Polish Homebrewer's Association report.

 

[Protos]

Apparently some was found for the radical brewing book. See the pages Grodziskie/Gratzer Water Profile

Not only I've seen this, I've brewed the recipe.
As much as I like the book and the resulting beer (actually, I liked it more than the canonical light version), just mentioning "1884" in the recipe description can't be any kind of a source. Especially since the recipe contradicts so much of what historical data has been amassed on the style up to the day. Mosher needs to elaborate on this topic considerably for his data to get a real credibility. Hopefully he does someday.

Session beers are ok, but I prefer a 4.5-5.5 beer

Why not to brew one then? A modern brewery in Grodzisk town brews a 7% ABV version of an "imperial Grodziskie" without giving a flip on its authenticity. It's a cheap-and-dirty approach, crowd pleasing being the foremost priority (overrepresentation of AmIPA in the rest of their product line being another example of the same policy), but hey, it's what happens now even in the very town of Grodzisk. They just invent their new own beers a là Grätzer, without pretending those to be true-to-the-style recreations and I see nothing wrong with that.

Regarding the hopping levels of Grodziskie, it seems there used to be some wiggle room in this respect. 20 IBU was just one of the acceptable standards, another being about 33, all at the same OG in the 1030s. I brewed both, liked the 20IBU version more.

NB
I'm not saying there never ever used to be any Grätzers stronger than 3%. What I'm saying is that there's no available sources as yet (aside from the Mosher's recipe of obscure origin) confirming the existence of substyles different from what was brewed in the 1980s. Which makes any lore on "stronger ancient Grätzers" a pure conjecture - which may or may not be proved in the future by some newly discovered reliable sources. I'd prefer the prove to be found, because I like stronger Grätzers.

 

[MaxStout]

I'm interested in this discussion of Grodziskie, especially with the higher ABV angle.

I brewed a smaller version last year, at around 3.5%, and really liked it. First Grodziskie. Not completely true to form, as I used Perle instead of Polish hops, and pitched US-05 (what I had on hand). I did use Weyermann oak smoked wheat and a bit of acid malt for pH adjustment. I bottle conditioned and carbed to about 3 vols. I really enjoyed it and plan to brew more of them.

I often bring homebrews to the head brewer of a nearby brewery for some feedback. Last year I brought a couple bottles of the Grodziskie, and he liked it a lot. Recently, he said he might brew one, but said ~3% brews wouldn't sell, as his customers tend to prefer higher ABVs, even in "session" beers. And there's the 3.2 beer stigma. So it'll be more in the 4.5-5.5 range. Understandable, as it's a 15 bbl operation. That's a lot of risk on a niche beer. I hope it works out for them.

Then again, who 15 years ago would've thought Kolsch would be such a big hit in US craft breweries? You never know what will take off.

Anyway, I'm inspired to take a shot at a higher ABV HB Grodziskie, maybe 4.5 to 5%. Will do this one with Weyermann oak wheat again, Saaz, and maybe German ale yeast--K97 or similar.

 

[beren]

With a few exceptions for beer you just can’t get and have no choice to brew, I want to brew beers and taste them as close as possible to the height of popularity. So if a session style is newer but for centuries was stronger, I wanna learn more about it and try to recreate it. I just wish there was more info out there for some things, like someone going through old polish brewery logs.

 

[AlexKay]

I'm interested in this discussion of Grodziskie, especially with the higher ABV angle.

I brewed a smaller version last year, at around 3.5%, and really liked it. First Grodziskie. Not completely true to form, as I used Perle instead of Polish hops, and pitched US-05 (what I had on hand). I did use Weyermann oak smoked wheat and a bit of acid malt for pH adjustment. I bottle conditioned and carbed to about 3 vols. I really enjoyed it and plan to brew more of them.

I often bring homebrews to the head brewer of a nearby brewery for some feedback. Last year I brought a couple bottles of the Grodziskie, and he liked it a lot. Recently, he said he might brew one, but said ~3% brews wouldn't sell, as his customers tend to prefer higher ABVs, even in "session" beers. And there's the 3.2 beer stigma. So it'll be more in the 4.5-5.5 range. Understandable, as it's a 15 bbl operation. That's a lot of risk on a niche beer. I hope it works out for them.

Then again, who 15 years ago would've thought Kolsch would be such a big hit in US craft breweries? You never know what will take off.

Anyway, I'm inspired to take a shot at a higher ABV HB Grodziskie, maybe 4.5 to 5%. Will do this one with Weyermann oak wheat again, Saaz, and maybe German ale yeast--K97 or similar.

You didn't ask, but I'd strongly recommend Lallemand Kolsch over SafAle K-97. The latter can develop a tart flavor, while the former is just pure awesomeness.

 

[beren]

Iirc I read it’s supposed to have some sourness to it?

 

[MaxStout]

You didn't ask, but I'd strongly recommend Lallemand Kolsch over SafAle K-97. The latter can develop a tart flavor, while the former is just pure awesomeness.

Never tried that one but I just might do that. I've made some good Kolsch beers with K-97, but if the Lallemand yeast is better, I'm in. Might be a good candidate for the Grodziskie.

 

[Protos]

Iirc I read it’s supposed to have some sourness to it?

Not at all. Ron Pattinson elaborated on this subject in details (sorry can't insert the link, I'm on the go right now) and stresses emphatically that "sour Grätzer" is nothing but a modern fad.
Tart yeast like K-97 is a flaw in Grätzer. US-05 and M54 are okayish but too much estery for the style. Among the dry options, Lalbrew Köln is the optimal choise and Gozdawa Alt is the ideal one.

 

[faithie999]

I make my Grodziskie using Sugar Creek's Grodziskie malt. It looks to be out of stock at the moment, though if you're interested it might be worth dropping them an email -- they sometimes have new malt available but don't update the website, and/or they can tell you when it's due back. In any case, it's much more heavily smoked than the Weyermann; I get a stronger smoke flavor at ~15% of the grist (with the balance white wheat.) It's also just the thing for adding oak smoke to other styles (e.g., Doppelbock) without having to rearrange the whole recipe.

I've made Grodziskie and consider it some of my best beer. I've had others' ... all at around 4% ABV. You can absolutely make a fantastic beer at that strength. Authentic? I have no idea, and then there's your point that "authentic" doesn't necessarily even mean something clear for an old, evolving style without extant traditional brewers. But it certainly doesn't need to be strong to be good.

I wish session beers got more love in general. I'd happily do a Thanos-style snap and get rid of half of the triple IPAs and monster pastry stouts that are out there if it got me more bitters and milds and Kolsches.

Then again, ask me about the Imperial Eiskolsch I once made...

would you mind sharing your recipe?

thanks!

Ken

 

[Protos]

Ron Pattinson elaborated on this subject in details (sorry can't insert the link, I'm on the go right now)

Well, finally I've had the time to revisit Ron's blog. His blog is probably the most extensive bit of information on the style in a language other than Polish. Here's the articles I've been referring to: Grodziskie - I wish they just wouldn't bother and Why do I bother where Ron brings some bad news to the adherents of the influential and vocal "sour grodziskie" sect.

And here's all his blog entries relating to Grodziskie. Including some vintage gravity data, none of which, to my dismay, confirm speculations on the stronger Grätzer existing sometime in the old days of yore. Nothing really bad with that: I see no problem in brewing as strong a Grätzer as I like. Another thing, I can't claim my Grätzerbocks to be recreations of a historical style. Big deal!

 

[mashpaddled]

Well, finally I've had the time to revisit Ron's blog. His blog is probably the most extensive bit of information on the style in a language other than Polish. Here's the articles I've been referring to: Grodziskie - I wish they just wouldn't bother and Why do I bother where Ron brings some bad news to the adherents of the influential and vocal "sour grodziskie" sect.

And here's all his blog entries relating to Grodziskie. Including some vintage gravity data, none of which, to my dismay, confirm speculations on the stronger Grätzer existing sometime in the old days of yore. Nothing really bad with that: I see no problem in brewing as strong a Grätzer as I like. Another thing, I can't claim my Grätzerbocks to be recreations of a historical style. Big deal!

This is a pretty good example of why I am a critic of his writing. He dismisses the idea that there could be sour versions by making a sweeping generalization that hops kill LAB. It's the sort of sweeping generalization he criticizes others for making that he has no shortage of in his own writings. It is not particularly difficult to sour a 30 IBU beer. That's usually what I target for my sour beers.

It's not hard to imagine that some breweries would have less than ideal brewing or packaging conditions that may have resulted in a house culture of LAB or wild yeast that commonly infected the beers produced in the brewery. You can find craft breweries today with the same kind of problems. If the discussion goes back into more historical times, it's even more likely that some breweries would have developed LAB or acid-producing wild yeast in their culture or in the brewery.

It's also not hard to imagine a 2-3% ABV beer coming across as a little tart with no infection or intentional souring. Those super low ABV beers don't have much sweetness to combat the ph drop during fermentation. If the brewing water yields a lower ph or the brewery modified the water causing a lower ph, that could be another explanation.

I'm just out here taking the other side of the debate. I don't believe grodziskie is a sour beer or should be thought of in modern production techniques as a sour beer.

 

[Protos]

I don't believe grodziskie is a sour beer or should be thought of in modern production techniques as a sour beer

^ That's the main thing.
Grätzer, being a very light style (and no evidences have been found yet it's ever been otherwise), definitely wasn't a particularly sweet beer. Moreover, its acidity levels probably may have had variations throughout the years and batches. Nevertheless there are no sufficient historical data that allow to classify it in the cohort of sour beers.

Pattinson fights the emerging trend to make Grätzer an "obligatory" soured style, up to including the souring feature into the style definitions. Which trend grounds entirely on personal tastes and misconceptions of particular modern brewers and not on documented sources or on contemporary industrial standards. Which is a deeply flawed approach to any "historical recreation".

 

[mashpaddled]

^ That's the main thing.
Grätzer, being a very light style (and no evidences have been found yet it's ever been otherwise), definitely wasn't a particularly sweet beer. Moreover, its acidity levels probably may have had variations throughout the years and batches. Nevertheless there are no sufficient historical data that allow to classify it in the cohort of sour beers.

Pattinson fights the emerging trend to make Grätzer an "obligatory" soured style, up to including the souring feature into the style definitions. Which trend grounds entirely on personal tastes and misconceptions of particular modern brewers and not on documented sources or on contemporary industrial standards. Which is a deeply flawed approach to any "historical recreation".

There's certainly those people out there who think every historical style is necessarily sour or brett-y. That's simply not true. For the vast majority of at least European beer history that we know to date, there was way more effort made to brew and consume beers quickly to avoid souring. Unless there is credible evidence that beers were intentionally aged to produce brett or sour character, it is far better to assume either would be considered undesirable.

 

[MaxStout]

Well, finally I've had the time to revisit Ron's blog. His blog is probably the most extensive bit of information on the style in a language other than Polish. Here's the articles I've been referring to: Grodziskie - I wish they just wouldn't bother and Why do I bother where Ron brings some bad news to the adherents of the influential and vocal "sour grodziskie" sect.

And here's all his blog entries relating to Grodziskie. Including some vintage gravity data, none of which, to my dismay, confirm speculations on the stronger Grätzer existing sometime in the old days of yore. Nothing really bad with that: I see no problem in brewing as strong a Grätzer as I like. Another thing, I can't claim my Grätzerbocks to be recreations of a historical style. Big deal!

Thanks for posting those. As I'm planning to brew another one soon, I have a bit of light reading.

 

[AlexKay]

would you mind sharing your recipe?

thanks!

Ken

Here’s my most recent iteration, for a ~2.75-gallon batch:
3.9 lbs. white wheat malt
0.75 lbs. Sugar Creek oak-smoked wheat
2 g Marynka (9.2%) @ 60
4 g each Lubelski, Sybilla, Nationalniy @ 5
Lallemand Koln
1.037 OG/1.005 FG/4.2%
50/10/25/90/95 Ca/Mg/Na/Cl/SO4

Very happy with it, though the next batch I’ll probably up the bittering by a factor of 1.5-2.

Late hop additions probably aren’t authentic, nor is the use of relatively new varieties. The aroma hops are all high-farnesene, though, and the combination works for me. I’ve done Grodziskie with 100% Saaz and 100% Lubelski, but I think I’m on to something good with this mix.

Note that the smoke level works because the Sugar Creek malt is so strong. If I ever had to go back to the Weyermann, I’d use it at 100%.

 

[Protos]

No worries, late hop additions are fully authentic for Grodziskie. Though just tiny late additions, far from how much you choose to add.
What I calculated from a Polish industrial guideline, one of the prescribed hopping regimens was 19 IBUs at 120 mins, 3 IBUs at 30 mins and 1/3 weight of the second addition at hopback. There was also another canonical bittering scheme upping the bitterness up to 33IBU, but I currently don't have my calculation at hand.
The hop choise doesn't seem to stray far from the original too. All your hops are of the noble Saazer ancestry, no fruit salads, no catpiss. The only caveat, at these late hopping levels you were risking to get a harsh lingering bitterness from Marynka and especially from Nacionalny, which are pretty cohumulone-rich (that is rough-bitter) hops, so aren't the perfect candidates for late hopping. But if you're saying you're happy with the beer and would even double the bitterness up, then disregard my caveat.

Also, don't be afraid to "oversmoke" your Grätzer. 100% and even 200% of Weyermann Smoked Wheat is far from enough to emulate the authentic level of smokiness. Thus say the Poles who've tried the real thing 40 years ago.

 

[AlexKay]

My understanding of cohumulone and rough bitterness is that this is long-held conventional wisdom that has not been borne out in recent studies.

In any case I’ve been pretty happy with Marynka. This may be mostly because it smells great coming out of the package; I certainly haven’t done a side-by-side with something like Magnum.

 

[Beekeeper]

Also, don't be afraid to "oversmoke" your Grätzer. 100% and even 200% of Weyermann Smoked Wheat is far from enough to emulate the authentic level of smokiness. Thus say the Poles who've tried the real thing 40 years ago.

I have used 100% Weyermann Oak Smoked Wheat Malt and the smokiness was quite pleasant. (Surprised me, as I was hesitant to use 100%.)

Please explaing how one can use more, as in the 200% mentioned here.

 

[Protos]

In my experience, with 100% Weyermann Eichenrauchweizenmalz I never reach the desired level of smokiness. Well, a whiff of smoke is present but it's so faint, almost non-existent. Pleasant, but not true to the style.
When I was exploring Grodziskie threads on Polish brewing forums (I speak Polish, which helped me greatly in researching the subject of Grätzer) I learned that the Grodzisk brewery traditionally used custom-made oak-smoked malt which was significantly higher in phenolic ppm than any modern commercialy available substitutes from Weyermann or Viking. People who drank the beer when it was commercially produced in the 1980s confirmed its firmly (not faintly) smoky character. The consensus was it's impossible to recreate the authentic level of smokiness with the available malts, so to recreate a truly faithful version you need to smoke your own.

I have no idea how smoky Sugar Creek malt is, about which AlexKay says it's "so strong". The only thing is certain: to brew an authentic Grätzer you need a malt much higher in phenolic ppm than that from Weyermann. Use 100% of the smokiest malt you can get, and you'll never go wrong with that.

Please explaing how one can use more, as in the 200% mentioned here.

LOL, that's simple. Saying "200%" I mean if the current phenolic content of Weyermann Eichenrauchweizenmalz was multiplied by two, even then it won't be enough to recreate an authentic Grätzer.

It's like with Chateau Peated Malt, you know. At only 5 ppm phenolics, it just disappears in your wort leaving no traceable flavour impact. To brew a decent peat-smoked beer you need something no less than 45 ppm from Simpsons (I made a Kveik once with Simpsons 82ppm Peated Malt at 84% of the grist, and loved the beer). Unfortunately, no data available on phenolic ppm levels from Weyermann or Viking.

 

[Beekeeper]

Saying "200%" I mean if the current phenolic content of Weyermann Eichenrauchweizenmalz was multiplied by two, even then it won't be enough to recreate an authentic Grätzer.

Thanks.

I have done 100% peat test brew before.
There's still plenty of that available for sampling.

 

[Protos]

Your 100% peat which you don't like, or my 84% peat which I do like, are just our private experiments. No traditional beer is brewed with peated malt.
Grätzer is an old established style, and it used to be brewed from 100% malt much smokier than what we buy now.
That's the fact that needs to be taken into account when we are discussing recreating the style.
Nothing, of course, prevents us from brewing stronger of darker or sour or fruited or less smoky Grätzer. It might be a delicious beer in its own right but it won't be a recreation. Which is not a big deal either.

 

[MaxStout]

I see that Viking makes an oak-smoked wheat malt. Anyone brewed with that, and how does it compare with Weyermann, as to its smokiness?

The Grodziskie I brewed was with 100% Weyermann. The beer had a pleasant, but not strong, smoke aroma and flavor.

 

[Protos]

Haven't had an opportunity to try it, unfortunately.
As far as I can conclude from others' conversations, it barely differs from Weyermann.

I'm brewing a Grätzer today.
No experiments this time, just replicating the tried and true canonical recipe.
Got some rare ingredients: Polish yeast (the coveted Gozdawa Old German Ale which I think is ideal for Grätzer) and Polish Saazer (called Żatecki in this case). In the grain department, however, Weyermann is all that's available, so I'll have to be content with an undersmoked Grodzisz.
(The last word is a short affectionate term for Grodziskie in Polish, pronounced like "GRO-jeesh").

 

[Beekeeper]

I see that Viking makes an oak-smoked wheat malt. Anyone brewed with that, and how does it compare with Weyermann, as to its smokiness?

The Grodziskie I brewed was with 100% Weyermann. The beer had a pleasant, but not strong, smoke aroma and flavor.

Where Weyermann's specifies color as 2-2.7, Viking suggest only that the color will be < 10. Using oak from Poland, so I think that it will be worth a try. MoreBeer has it on hand, and I now have a bag on order.

 

[MaxStout]

Where Weyermann's specifies color as 2-2.7, Viking suggest only that the color will be < 10. Using oak from Poland, so I think that it will be worth a try. MoreBeer has it on hand, and I now have a bag on order.

MoreBeer's listing shows 4.3L max, which is about 10 on the EBC scale. Still darker than Weyermann.

Let us know how it works out.