Yeah, that was my instinct - thanks for confirming my suspicions. Maybe I'll try a wit, heh, or bump up the oats in the next coffee stout: easier than arguing with the local shop. I have also half wondered about batch sparging by sticking the malt pipe in a bucket of water as a workaround.
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Yeah, that was my instinct - thanks for confirming my suspicions. Maybe I'll try a wit, heh, or bump up the oats in the next coffee stout: easier than arguing with the local shop. I have also half wondered about batch sparging by sticking the malt pipe in a bucket of water as a workaround.
I just did a wit with approx 50% flaked wheat in the grainfather. No rice hulls and a fast sparge.
sarhubs
Starhubs
I have been brewing with the Grainfather for over 2 years now. I rarely get efficiencies below 88%. Two things I have discovered that are relevant to this post are:
1) Stir your mash 1/2 way through - 30 minutes in. This will greatly improve your mash efficiency. You will also notice faster grain bed flow-through after this. Place a strainer over your overflow tube to keep small pieces of grain that get through the filter from getting back into the bottom space through the overflow. Many times the wort will flow so well through the grain bed after a 30 min stir that it does not collect above the top screen enough to even go through the overflow. But if it does, the screen will keep particles out of your wort.
2 After pulling the basket up allow the mash to drain well before sparging. While the basket is draining, keep recirculating through the space between the basket and the GF outer shell and set the temp to 170. Once the grains are well drained, gently push the top screen down to the top of the grain bed - but do not push on the grains. You will now get a slow but steady/even sparge. So let it drain and set before sparging. After 10 minutes of the temp staying at 170, raise your temp to boil. You should be about half way through your sparge by now.
Add these practices and you will notice higher efficiency results.
1) Stir your mash 1/2 way through - 30 minutes in. This will greatly improve your mash efficiency. You will also notice faster grain bed flow-through after this. Place a strainer over your overflow tube to keep small pieces of grain that get through the filter from getting back into the bottom space through the overflow. Many times the wort will flow so well through the grain bed after a 30 min stir that it does not collect above the top screen enough to even go through the overflow. But if it does, the screen will keep particles out of your wort.
2 After pulling the basket up allow the mash to drain well before sparging. While the basket is draining, keep recirculating through the space between the basket and the GF outer shell and set the temp to 170. Once the grains are well drained, gently push the top screen down to the top of the grain bed - but do not push on the grains. You will now get a slow but steady/even sparge. So let it drain and set before sparging. After 10 minutes of the temp staying at 170, raise your temp to boil. You should be about half way through your sparge by now.
Add these practices and you will notice higher efficiency results.
Sounds like you do have it down to a science, but I have to ask you why after pulling your grains you are raising the temp to 170. I raise mine to 168 for 10 minutes prior to pulling the grains for mashout.
Keep up the good work!
sarhubs
Starhubs
There is the thought that raising the mash temp to 168 - 170 prior to pulling the basket is better for extraction because "technically" the viscosity of the undrained wort is thinner and will therefore flow through the grain bed more effectively. I have not found this to be true enough in practice to make that much of a difference. It doesn't hurt so no problem.
I raise the temp to 170 after pulling up because I use 170 degree sparge water. It just gives me a head start, but either way works as long as you get the wort to 170 to shut down the enzyme action.
Happy brewing!
I raise the temp to 170 after pulling up because I use 170 degree sparge water. It just gives me a head start, but either way works as long as you get the wort to 170 to shut down the enzyme action.
Happy brewing!
Great Fermentations has it for the same $799, plus you can use 10HOPS for another 10% off. Really thinking of pulling the trigger...
Anyone have any other discount codes for the other retailers that have it for $799?
Anyone have any other discount codes for the other retailers that have it for $799?
xandersaml
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I contacted Grainfather after the Robobrew came out and asked about discounted pricing because they were going to start losing market share. They claimed they had no intention of lowering their prices. I bought a Gen3 Robobrew (love it)for under $500 with a jacket; after wanting a Grainfather for a few years and putting it off. This competition is great. I knew they'd have to come down. I love both machines.
Frilock
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Uhg, not having such a great brew session. Every time I put the top plate on, it starts tilting then slipping down further, as does the center pipe. I've been mashing for well over an hour now and haven't even been able to start the recirculation. Not to mention I've now lost A TON of grain down the center pipe.
Edit:In the time it took me to write that the top plate went from being flat just BARELY under the wort level to tilting and sliding completely down. The center pipe seems to being staying up this time so I'm saying screw it, turning on the recirc with the tube submerged and finishing this up. I can only imagine how clogged my pump is going to be from all the grain that got into the boiler
Edit:In the time it took me to write that the top plate went from being flat just BARELY under the wort level to tilting and sliding completely down. The center pipe seems to being staying up this time so I'm saying screw it, turning on the recirc with the tube submerged and finishing this up. I can only imagine how clogged my pump is going to be from all the grain that got into the boiler
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Hey all. I've got a bunch of spare GF parts just sitting here that I'd be willing to sell at a good price. All are new/unused except the original control box. I can provide pictures if needed/wanted. Please PM me if you're interested. Prices do not include shipping unless specified. Ed
Item ($ Retail) - My Price
Original Control Box for Grainfather ($200) - $75
CFC Cold Water Connection Kit ($20?) - $5
Recirculation Pipe ($60) - $30
SOLD - 300mm Silicone Tube ($12) - $3 (shipped)
SOLD - Ball Valve Tap ($40) - $20
SOLD - Check Valve Ball & Spring ($2.2) - $1 (shipped)
SOLD - Check Valve Body ($30) - $15
SOLD - Pipework O-Rings ($2) - $1 (shipped)
SOLD - Pump Discharge Pipe ($25) - $12
SOLD - Thermometer Probe Moulded Nut ($16) - $8
SOLD - Thermometer Probe Socket ($30) - $15
SOLD - Overflow Inlet ($16.5) - $8
SOLD - Grainfather OverflowOutlet Nut ($2.5) - $1.25 (shipped)
Adventures in Homebrewing Prices
Grainfather prices
Austin Homebrew Supply Prices
Nope. First time I've heard of this. Hopefully, they'll send you a replacement quickly. Ed
elreplica
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Doesn’t sound like you’ve had the luck of the Irish the past while[emoji848][emoji51]
jfhoupt
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Received my Grainfather from Williams Brewing on Friday. One day shipping from North Carolina to South Carolina. Beat the yeast and hop spider. I'm going to use up two extract kits I found (~ 2/3 yrs old) so they don't go to waste. Still in original packaging and kept dark. Figured these would be good practice sessions before getting serious?!
Warning: Nothing interesting here, just another person saying they bought the Grainfather. Read on if you want a little story.
I've been eyeballing the Grainfather and similar systems for years.
My first electric brew was in an apartment over 8 years ago. I'd been brewing for years, but had been limited to partial mashes and cooktops.
I bought an electric turkey fryer and some mesh from the hobby store and brewed in a bag. After refining the process to work well (Reflectix insulation, smaller batch size, small sparge, etc.), I ditched it like a bad habit the moment I lived somewhere I could use propane again.
It was an experience that left me cold to electric brewing for years. Back then, there weren't any great off-the-shelf solutions for electric brewing.
The Grainfather recaptured my interest. Brew indoors with a proper batch size, mash streps, reduced effort, and less cleaning? Sign me up.
But the cost of entry was prohibitive. I've refined my technique and equipment for years. $1000 for a new mash and boil setup seemed exorbitant. I could buy a nicer kettle, burner, mash tun, pump, and other odds and ends for the same price.
But it kept my interest. Then other electric brew systems starting showing up. Most seemed to be pretenders. Inferior imitators. Some of the others that looked good we multi-vessel. No thanks. I have propane for that.
The Robobrew came out and I darn near bought it. But I didn't. Probably because I wanted the Grainfather. It was proven and New Zealand accents are cool.
But $1000!
Their conical came out. I was impressed. The double wall insulation and other considerations really meant that they get it. At least to me.
I've never gone to conicals over the years. I've used all manner of buckets and carboys. I have a chest freezer and built a PID temperature controller about 7 years ago that's still going strong.
But the Grainfather conical... Ugh, that thing looks good. Arguably it looks way less cool than a conical from SS, Spike, Stout, or others, but the functional design speaks to me.
My biggest hang up is chilling. I can lager and carefully control my fermentation temps with my existing setup.
Then I saw their simple cooling kit. But it isn't glycol. Couldn't be as good as my freezer.
Fast forward to last week. $200 off...
Crap. Goodbye headphone gear, hello hobby cash.
I decided to overhaul my whole system in one go.
I found a good deal on a pre-Connect Grainfather. Then I got a Connect. Then I bought the Graincoat. Then I bought a Hot Rod Heatstick to supplement the boil.
Then I bought the Grainfather Connect with the cooling kit and dual valves. This one has me the most worried, to be honest.
My plan: I added a collar and insulation to my fermentation freezer. I cut holes in it for the cooling tubes. I plan to use a glycol solution and keep the liquid below freezing to cool more effectively. We'll see how that works.
Anyway...
Yeah, I've gone full Grainfather. Everything arrives this week and I will probably brew with it this coming weekend.
I'm excited but more than a little worried about so many process changes at once.
Any tips would be appreciated.
I've been eyeballing the Grainfather and similar systems for years.
My first electric brew was in an apartment over 8 years ago. I'd been brewing for years, but had been limited to partial mashes and cooktops.
I bought an electric turkey fryer and some mesh from the hobby store and brewed in a bag. After refining the process to work well (Reflectix insulation, smaller batch size, small sparge, etc.), I ditched it like a bad habit the moment I lived somewhere I could use propane again.
It was an experience that left me cold to electric brewing for years. Back then, there weren't any great off-the-shelf solutions for electric brewing.
The Grainfather recaptured my interest. Brew indoors with a proper batch size, mash streps, reduced effort, and less cleaning? Sign me up.
But the cost of entry was prohibitive. I've refined my technique and equipment for years. $1000 for a new mash and boil setup seemed exorbitant. I could buy a nicer kettle, burner, mash tun, pump, and other odds and ends for the same price.
But it kept my interest. Then other electric brew systems starting showing up. Most seemed to be pretenders. Inferior imitators. Some of the others that looked good we multi-vessel. No thanks. I have propane for that.
The Robobrew came out and I darn near bought it. But I didn't. Probably because I wanted the Grainfather. It was proven and New Zealand accents are cool.
But $1000!
Their conical came out. I was impressed. The double wall insulation and other considerations really meant that they get it. At least to me.
I've never gone to conicals over the years. I've used all manner of buckets and carboys. I have a chest freezer and built a PID temperature controller about 7 years ago that's still going strong.
But the Grainfather conical... Ugh, that thing looks good. Arguably it looks way less cool than a conical from SS, Spike, Stout, or others, but the functional design speaks to me.
My biggest hang up is chilling. I can lager and carefully control my fermentation temps with my existing setup.
Then I saw their simple cooling kit. But it isn't glycol. Couldn't be as good as my freezer.
Fast forward to last week. $200 off...
Crap. Goodbye headphone gear, hello hobby cash.
I decided to overhaul my whole system in one go.
I found a good deal on a pre-Connect Grainfather. Then I got a Connect. Then I bought the Graincoat. Then I bought a Hot Rod Heatstick to supplement the boil.
Then I bought the Grainfather Connect with the cooling kit and dual valves. This one has me the most worried, to be honest.
My plan: I added a collar and insulation to my fermentation freezer. I cut holes in it for the cooling tubes. I plan to use a glycol solution and keep the liquid below freezing to cool more effectively. We'll see how that works.
Anyway...
Yeah, I've gone full Grainfather. Everything arrives this week and I will probably brew with it this coming weekend.
I'm excited but more than a little worried about so many process changes at once.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Hop, congratulations on your purchases..."buy once, cry once." I think you'll be happy with your decision. The GF warranty is really good, even if you bought it from a secondary supplier. They are usually very quick to fix any issues you may have. I can't speak to the chiller & conical, but I've been using the GF for more two years. Obviously, this whole thread is really long, but if you're willing to mine for the tip nuggets, they are here throughout the thread. You've been brewing for a number of years already, so I'll try to offer a few GF specific getting started tips:
- Get to know your GF's numbers. I have a Graincoat, but don't use a hotrod or supplemental heat source to improve the boil. IMHO, the boil is just fine without them and does what it needs to do to utilize hops and make beer. I tell you this because the boil off rate in the GF App is too high for me and I've adjusted my starting numbers accordingly to get to my "into the fermenter" size of 5.5 gals. If you measure out all the water you need at the start, then you won't have to worry about adding enough/too much when mashing/sparging. The way I do it is I heat all my water to mash temp, then pump off the sparge amount into a 5 gallon water cooler to keep hot during the mash. That's also when I adjust my chemistry, if needed.
- I'd recommend putting your GF on a wheeled cart/dolly or some other stand where you can get to the reset button if needed. It also makes a full GF much easier to move around. This is the one I use.
- If you brew inside, open a window or use a vent fan, otherwise, you might get too much moisture in the kitchen, laundry room, etc.
- If you discharge your CFC cooling water into the sink, make sure you have a clip or some other means to secure the outlet hose (the red one.) It would not be good to have it pop out of the sink, onto the floor (especially if you don't catch it right away.) I usually collect the first 5 gallons of hot water into a bucket and use it for clean up.
- Set your connect to start to boil as soon as you pull up the basket to start your sparge. It takes a while for it to get to boil anyway, so use the time efficiently. Once you are finished, you can pull the basket and add your hotrod. BTW, the standard 7 quart oil change pan from W-marts makes an excellent grain pipe holder so it doesn't leak all over the floor (and you can capture the last of the drippings.)
Ed
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Frilock
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- If you discharge your CFC cooling water into the sink, make sure you have a clip or some other means to secure the outlet hose (the red one.) It would not be good to have it pop out of the sink, onto the floor (especially if you don't catch it right away.) I usually collect the first 5 gallons of hot water into a bucket and use it for clean up.
Really want to make sure that is secured. Had it fall to the floor where it burned my bare feet. Also a good idea if you need to move it to turn off the pump from the GF and run water through it for a bit. The water in the coil can stay hot and it WILL want to come out.
Thanks, Ed!
A couple of questions:
- I've seen that some folks added clamps in a few spots. Are there common recommendations here? I think I saw one at the filter and one at the cooler intake (or was it the outlet?).
- How are people getting water out of the counterflow chiller to ensure it's dry? I've always used immersion chillers.
Thanks all!
A couple of questions:
- I've seen that some folks added clamps in a few spots. Are there common recommendations here? I think I saw one at the filter and one at the cooler intake (or was it the outlet?).
- How are people getting water out of the counterflow chiller to ensure it's dry? I've always used immersion chillers.
Thanks all!
Yes, I recommend the hose clamps. Especially for the filter. It will prevent the filter from accidentally coming off when stirring or whirlpooling. If it comes off then you'll likely have a problem pumping through the counterflow chiller.
The second one on the blue water intake will prevent it from blowing off if you have to high water pressure going into counterflow chiller. Even with the clamp you need to monitor to keep from over pressuring that hose.
Hi Hop!
In addition to what @Oh_Papi said about putting a clamp on the filter & blue intake hose, I'd also recommend replacing the plastic collars on the pump inlet/outlet with worm clamps, as well as replacing the cool wort out hose on the CFC with a longer hose. BTW, I would NOT place the CFC on the glass cover of the GF when sanitizing it and still in the boil mode. Once the boil has stopped and you're cooling your wort, it's okay. The only time I've ever had a boil over with the GF was when I put the lid on the GF and it was still boiling. I usually just put the CFC on an empty keg next to the GF and run the hose wherever it needs to go (back into the GF for sanitizing or into the fermenter.) Remember, clips are your friend and will keep things where they are supposed to be. As to drying out the CFC, after thoroughly rising it out, I usually hang it in such a manner as to allow the best drainage possible. I don't recommend filling the wort side with Star-San as it's an acid and will degrade the copper inside the CFC, and definitely do not blow through it with your mouth! (some folks will use CO2 or compressed air.) The cold water side you can drain as best you can, and don't worry about it. Hope this helps. Ed
alestateyall
Well-Known Member
I use an air compressor to push air through the CFC to get all (or most) the liquid out.
Regarding the CFC on top of the glass lid, I never did like doing that. So I made a swing out table on my brew stand out of 1/2" galvanized pipe. I just posted photos of my Grainfather Brew Stand on the "Show US Your Sculpture or Brew Rig" which shows the brewstand. The post can be found here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...pture-or-brew-rig.46578/page-108#post-8320434Hi Hop!
In addition to what @Oh_Papi said about putting a clamp on the filter & blue intake hose, I'd also recommend replacing the plastic collars on the pump inlet/outlet with worm clamps, as well as replacing the cool wort out hose on the CFC with a longer hose. BTW, I would NOT place the CFC on the glass cover of the GF when sanitizing it and still in the boil mode. Once the boil has stopped and you're cooling your wort, it's okay. The only time I've ever had a boil over with the GF was when I put the lid on the GF and it was still boiling. I usually just put the CFC on an empty keg next to the GF and run the hose wherever it needs to go (back into the GF for sanitizing or into the fermenter.) Remember, clips are your friend and will keep things where they are supposed to be. As to drying out the CFC, after thoroughly rising it out, I usually hang it in such a manner as to allow the best drainage possible. I don't recommend filling the wort side with Star-San as it's an acid and will degrade the copper inside the CFC, and definitely do not blow through it with your mouth! (some folks will use CO2 or compressed air.) The cold water side you can drain as best you can, and don't worry about it. Hope this helps. Ed
I just finished this brew stand project last Thursday. I then brewed 3 batches this weekend. Since it is now a "self contained" unit it made things easier to organize and cleaning was a breeze. Hint hint. (make one!)
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couchsending
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After seeing the amount of gunk that comes out of the pump and external pipe when you break it down to clean it is anyone else wondering what the inside of the CFC might look like? I recirculate PBW at 140 for 20+ minutes after every brew and then 140 water for 10–15, and there is still a surprising amount of “gunk” especially in the pipe when I take it all apart.
I’ve gone to using my immersion chiller and pumping out using the recirc arm. Added benefit is way more break material staying out of the FV.
I’ve gone to using my immersion chiller and pumping out using the recirc arm. Added benefit is way more break material staying out of the FV.
Hi. I do the same thing as you for cleanup (also through the CFC,) as well as run boiling wort through the CFC at least 10 minutes before the end of the boil to sanitize it. However, I've not had any issues with gunk coming out of the CFC. How often do you break down your pump & external pipe? I'm doing mine every fourth or fifth brew and find that it's still fairly clean (as long as I make sure to drain everything very well and store it dry.) I love the efficiency of the CFC more than I'm concerned about anything that might be inside. Too bad they don't make an inexpensive 25 ft pipe brush (like a really long keg dip tube brush) that you could clean it with. Ed
couchsending
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Hi. I do the same thing as you for cleanup (also through the CFC,) as well as run boiling wort through the CFC at least 10 minutes before the end of the boil to sanitize it. However, I've not had any issues with gunk coming out of the CFC. How often do you break down your pump & external pipe? I'm doing mine every fourth or fifth brew and find that it's still fairly clean (as long as I make sure to drain everything very well and store it dry.) I love the efficiency of the CFC more than I'm concerned about anything that might be inside. Too bad they don't make an inexpensive 25 ft pipe brush (like a really long keg dip tube brush) that you could clean it with. Ed
Probably not frequently enough... maybe every 15 or so Brews. I’ve never had anything come out of the CFC but I’ve run probably close to 125 brews through it and if the pipe looks like that after 10-15 then I would be scared to see what’s in the CFC.
I don't worry about it too much. I sterilize recirculating the hot wort, as instructed to do. Once the chilled wort is transferred I remove sparge arm and controller and then clean out the grainfather. Then reconnect the pump to the controller and put in a couple gallons of fresh water inside and pump out over the side into the grass or bucket. Then lift up grainfather and hand dump the rest as there is likely goint to be a bit of hop particles from the pipe that settled in the fresh water. Then rinse the CFC. And im done. Either stow gear or brew again. Easy. Don't over think it.
couchsending
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So you don’t recirculate any cleaner through the CFC? Just rinse it out and recirc hot wort to sanitize? Really? No cleaner? You’re definitely gonna get some serious build up in there if that’s the case.
No, I haven't recirculated any cleaner in probably the last 6 batches. 3 last weekend and 3 in 6/2017. You know, its probably time to do that. I'm not too worried about it but yes, I think by now I should do it again.
EDIT SAME DAY: And I did go out to check after writing the above. I added water and PBW and heated the water to 140°F. And recirculated for 30 min. The water remained clean. I feel better that I checked but I'm good with what I have been doing. And don't forget about the outstanding beer.
EDIT SAME DAY: And I did go out to check after writing the above. I added water and PBW and heated the water to 140°F. And recirculated for 30 min. The water remained clean. I feel better that I checked but I'm good with what I have been doing. And don't forget about the outstanding beer.
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I doubt it's necessary to recirculate pbw through it. At the end of the the transfer to your fermenter, there's wort and maybe debris in there. If you flush it with water immediately afterwards, without giving it time to harden, it should be clean. And if you recirculate hot wort before chilling, it should be sanitary.
Nevertheless, I do use oxiclean after each brew. Since I'm recirculating anyway, it's no extra effort.
Nevertheless, I do use oxiclean after each brew. Since I'm recirculating anyway, it's no extra effort.
jfhoupt
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Well, the initial run went very good with only 1 glitch. After I hit boil and added the liquid malt and hops, it stopped heating. Checked Bluetooth application (which was working fine), went to manual, re plugged everything!!! Nothing worked. Figured maybe a bad controller, but the pump worked very well. Two hours past and I remembered - there is a "RESET" button on the bottom of the heating element. 
I leaned the GF and yep, the reset button was extended. Reset it, and she is heating like a good hot stove. Not sure what caused the heater to trip, but, everything is working as planned. So the malt/hops got an hour steep. Who cares. Getting use to the GF and the beer might not be too bad after all.
I leaned the GF and yep, the reset button was extended. Reset it, and she is heating like a good hot stove. Not sure what caused the heater to trip, but, everything is working as planned. So the malt/hops got an hour steep. Who cares. Getting use to the GF and the beer might not be too bad after all.
skleice
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Well, the initial run went very good with only 1 glitch. After I hit boil and added the liquid malt and hops, it stopped heating. Checked Bluetooth application (which was working fine), went to manual, re plugged everything!!! Nothing worked. Figured maybe a bad controller, but the pump worked very well. Two hours past and I remembered - there is a "RESET" button on the bottom of the heating element.
My guess is that your extract settled on the element and tripped the reset.
+1^^^ this. Having excessive gunk on the bottom of the kettle (whether by using extract or too much hop scum) may create an overheat situation which, in turn, trips the reset. That's why the GF instructions say to gently scrape the bottom of the kettle occasionally. Ed
jfhoupt
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Thanks Gentlemen. Being in a hurry, not use to an electric heating element, allowing the extract to collect on the bottom of the kettle. I did go back and scrap/stir and removed a little extract from the bottom thinking it might burn but didn't think of the reset. And to think this is the first time I ever read the instructions and went, yea, overheat, reset, I won't need that it's only water?! Next time I'll pour slowly and stir at the same time. Thanks for your help. John
I did check... because of Murphy's Law. Now I feel better. I was envisioning the insides like a polyp filled colon. All's well.
Interesting, that conflicts with other advice (which I was following) to begin sparging immediately. Will give it a go.
Has anyone used extra sparge water for higher grain bills? I thought I read somewhere that people are getting better efficiency by using extra sparge water and then boiling to targeted preboil volume before starting their 60 mins
First brew day went great right up until...
Cooling.
The pump simply could not pump through the chiller. Never even used the damn thing before.
Tried all of the tricks I read about short of the bike pump (don't have one that fits it). I don't know what could be stuck in there having never been used before.
Unfortunately, I couldn't use my immersion chiller properly because I usually brew outside and was indoors. My normal chiller has garden hose connections and I didn't have enough connectors to get it connected properly.
I ended up connecting a stainless steel chiller, putting it in an ice bath, and just pumped the wort out through there into my fermentor.
The batch is likely ruined unfortunately.
I wish I had an idea of why the counterflow chiller simply won't pump through. Attempting to blow through it yielded zero air movement whatsoever.
Ugh.
Cooling.
The pump simply could not pump through the chiller. Never even used the damn thing before.
Tried all of the tricks I read about short of the bike pump (don't have one that fits it). I don't know what could be stuck in there having never been used before.
Unfortunately, I couldn't use my immersion chiller properly because I usually brew outside and was indoors. My normal chiller has garden hose connections and I didn't have enough connectors to get it connected properly.
I ended up connecting a stainless steel chiller, putting it in an ice bath, and just pumped the wort out through there into my fermentor.
The batch is likely ruined unfortunately.
I wish I had an idea of why the counterflow chiller simply won't pump through. Attempting to blow through it yielded zero air movement whatsoever.
Ugh.
treacheroustexan
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