Grainfather!!

[elreplica]

I ran my first brew on a 15 amp breaker and everything went off without a hitch. I added a Yellowjacket 15 amp GFI to the Grainfather cord. I also used an Allied Precision 1000W heatstick on the bottom plug to heat my spargewater. Again, no issues whatsoever. Both units performed like champions.

 

[Tang10]

I'm not sure why we are trying to "fix" a system that we have all posted about being one of the best we've ever had. ;-)

Regarding the mash temp. I understand the temperature and readout are from below the bottom screen. However, once you turn the pump on and begin recircuation, all of that cooler wort in the grain bed moves down and through the bottom screen thus coming into contact with the thermo probe this giving you a proper reading of the what's coming from the grain bed.

In my experience it drops a few degrees and slowy comes back up to temp within 5-7 mins. This can be corrected (if it bothers you) as mentioned by raising the strike water temp 5° then reset it to mash temp after dough in right after starting the pump up.

As for overflow as others have pointed out its okay to overflow. That's why it's referred to as an overflow pipe. Even the GF manufacturers videos show the proper flow to go down the overflow pipe. I set mine somewhere in the middle to where I get some overflow but not a ton. Maybe on my next batch I'll try it wide open and compare results.

Sorry if you think I'm trying to fix something. My question is to you or anyone else in this thread, have you taken a temperature reading of the grain bed with a thermometer? This isn't rocket science as someone said earlier, but a very basic concept in brewing a batch of beer.

I mashed last Sunday for over 2 hours just so I could test the grain bed temp. With good amount of wort flowing down the overflow pipe, you will fall short of correct/maintaining mash temps.

I've been brewing all grain for over 10 years, this principle for all grain is about as basic as it gets. I'm not talking about being off the the target temp 1 or 2 degrees. I set the controller for a 149 degrees and started testing..........2 hours later the grain bed finally got to 147 from starting point of 138. The controller is fine, it reads 149 plus or minus a degree. The wort flowing out of the return arm is reading around 149 or so. Does nothing for you if it goes down the overflow pipe. I see the overflow pipe as the safety in the system if you step away from the system for a few minutes.

I'm gathering that Grain father users are gauging success on clear wort at the end.

Please don't take my comments/observations as threats to how the Grain Father works for you. I'm really trying to make what is a good product out of the box a great brewing system.

Sorry

Jamie

 

[gspot]

Jamie, my apologies if my post seemed to belittle your concerns, as that wasn't my intention. We all get different things out of our homebrewing, and if grain bed temps are your area of interest, then be my guest...

I think the only point I was trying to make is that I'm not sure it really matters in the grand scheme of things *for me*. You suggested that we (Grainfather users) are only using wort clarity to gauge success. I can't speak for the others, but I'm not. I use successful starch conversion, mash efficiency and beer that achieves my goals as benchmarks. I'm getting all that in spades regardless of the grain bed temp. Perhaps it's the liquid wort temp that matters more than the grain temp--I don't know.

Regardless, I hope you find a solution to your issue and wish you many happy brews!

 

[Tang10]

No need to apologies.....this is a really good discussion with good view points from lots of users.

What I'm really poking at is the mash process ultimately has a impact on the end product. Us brewers have a few choices on the body of the beer, light, medium or full. We achieve this by maintaining a solid mash temp in our 60 min process the matches the style of beer/body. Many brewers would agree that a large amount of the conversion process happens early in the process. The folks in coolers usual lock in the temp around 152 or so as a good middle ground to achieve balance in the beer.

My next step for brewing:

1 - keep the grain crush not to fine and add rice hulls
2 - adjust my strike temperature for adding the room temperature grain ( maybe shoot for 5 to 6 degrees high then set temp on controller)
3 - start the pump with ball valve closed to begin re-circulation and slowly open the valve to establish a good flow that limits the amount of wort down the overflow.
4 - Hope to sit back and enjoy easy brew with the unit.

Jamie

 

[gspot]

What I'm really poking at is the mash process ultimately has a impact on the end product. Us brewers have a few choices on the body of the beer, light, medium or full. We achieve this by maintaining a solid mash temp in our 60 min process the matches the style of beer/body.

I knew this was the assumption that you're working from, but didn't really want to participate in a theoretical argument that I can't prove one way or the other. I'll just say however that there has been some discussion lately that this matters less than originally thought. It seems to get on other peoples' nerves when the Brulosopher is referred to, so I won't mention this xbeeriment: http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/12/the-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

I know it's only one data point that doesn't disprove the importance of grain temp. I'm just saying that I personally don't seem to notice any deleterious effects from the way the Grainfather operates. YMMV

 

[Tang10]

I knew this was the assumption that you're working from, but didn't really want to participate in a theoretical argument that I can't prove one way or the other. I'll just say however that there has been some discussion lately that this matters less than originally thought. It seems to get on other peoples' nerves when the Brulosopher is referred to, so I won't mention this xbeeriment: http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/12/the-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

I know it's only one data point that doesn't disprove the importance of grain temp. I'm just saying that I personally don't seem to notice any deleterious effects from the way the Grainfather operates. YMMV

Thanks for the link........really good read that shows a different view with a good test.

I might try shoot a small video if I can for the first part of the mashing to show how my system is working.

 

[HCbrewing]

No need to apologies.....this is a really good discussion with good view points from lots of users.

What I'm really poking at is the mash process ultimately has a impact on the end product. Us brewers have a few choices on the body of the beer, light, medium or full. We achieve this by maintaining a solid mash temp in our 60 min process the matches the style of beer/body. Many brewers would agree that a large amount of the conversion process happens early in the process. The folks in coolers usual lock in the temp around 152 or so as a good middle ground to achieve balance in the beer.

My next step for brewing:

1 - keep the grain crush not to fine and add rice hulls
2 - adjust my strike temperature for adding the room temperature grain ( maybe shoot for 5 to 6 degrees high then set temp on controller)
3 - start the pump with ball valve closed to begin re-circulation and slowly open the valve to establish a good flow that limits the amount of wort down the overflow.
4 - Hope to sit back and enjoy easy brew with the unit.

Jamie

The whole point of controlling mash temp is to hit certain final gravities at the end of fermentation. If people are hitting their expected FG, does it matter if the grain bed temp is different than the wort temp? I think not.

 

[Tang10]

The whole point of controlling mash temp is to hit certain final gravities at the end of fermentation. If people are hitting their expected FG, does it matter if the grain bed temp is different than the wort temp? I think not.

Fair question..........I know for me my FG is way lower then expected according to Beer-Smith - target was 152F. Which tells me the mash temp was more in the fermentable range (142-148).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=307360

 

[Kampenken]

Great discussion here guys, I'm glad I logged in now to read the past 3 new pages of posts!

My view on recirc (beyond the obvious of step mashing) is the intention is to clarify the wort with the challenge of maintaining the temp. I was very close on building a RIMS for my cooler tun prior to deciding on the GF with the same intentions / challenge. As for the GF, I originally was fine with overflow, due to the GF video, but have changed since then. I stay around for the mash and adjust flow rate to avoid overflow, as I want to reduce grains in the boiler (my hangup). I also thought this would keep a more consistent grain bed process and thus temp (more on that later). I figure if I let 'er rip (as I originally did) that the potential for overflow recirc to the boiler, easier path, "might" make the mash run-thru less efficient. I have no proof, just my gut feel, seems right for me. If wide open, I do think it settles out and doesn't overrun over time, but ime, its a good 1/2 hr??, ymmv. Wort is clear. Then there's this. During my recent yellow water batch I just made with corn meal (I didn't cereal mash the corn meal) the flow was super slow. I had to monitor the mash pump to avoid the overflow (I fear the flow!), and ended up running it barely open. Not sure if that is best, but it did work reasonably well. While rice hulls would've improved this, could the hulls create channeling? (I have no idea).

As for grain bed temp., I am interested. Measuring could prove difficult during the mash. My temp probe likely won't fit through the plate holes, and if it did no more than ~5" deep. Do you suggest to stop the recirc, pull the lid and then measure? Wort temp on top of plate should equal STC temp since it just came from that neighborhood, so that isn't much value. Seems like a lot, especially if the STC isn't more than a degree or two off, but that's not what I've also read here from some of you (Tang10 esp). Maybe I'll try measuring during my next brew day (about 10 days, sadly, from now) and dig, literally, in to the bed.

On topic of measuring temps, has anyone calibrated their STC? Seems like a good starting point.

I have both hit the mash at mash temp and a bit higher. I think the latter is fine as maybe its better to be a bit low (2-3) than high?? And, if I do again strike higher, I will not go much more than 2-3 F. About 1 C!

As for the brulosophy and the exbeeriments I read and enjoy them, but are these scientific? I'd say not yet. There needs to be replication to validate, and even some tests have indicated slight variable changes, that were not fully controlled. Still, these are great discussion points, and I am glad these take place and can read and ponder upon my own brewing dogma. Keeps advancing our hobby!

I'm enjoying the discussion here on this. Its quite a reasonable point to consider, we all bought the GF and most of us likely hoped that we could maintain consistency, as well as brew great beer!, and this is what I think the essence of this discussion is about.

As for the 15A, I hope its working. As the NE weather is improving (70 next week??!!) I would like to brew on the deck, and I have a 15A outlet there w/GFCI that I installed for landscape lighting last year (need to check what else might be on the circuit) so would like to use this outlet instead of adding a 20A outside (alternatively I may make a 10' or so 20A extension cord and run from basement outlet).

 

[Tang10]

I know my testing on a batch for 2 hours was pulling the top plate and measuring with a calibrated digital thermometer each time.

Just as a side note......the recirculated wort is coming out a little cooler then the probe reading in the bottom. My guess is the wort traveling up the external pipe on the return side of the pump is losing a little heat. I'm going to do a simple install of foam insulation that you buy for wrapping around copper pipe that you can buy at the hardware store. Seems simple to try.

The truth is, the Grainfather was a cheap buy when comparing to other similar systems on the market. With simple changes I think it can hit all the marks that an expensive system doing.

 

[Kampenken]

this is where I'm confused now, never went over post-boil gravity (or original gravity if I am correct). What is the abv, ibu impact of going from 1.060 to 1.066? ... now I'm thinking how did it happen? could that be from boiling off too much wort? I didn't get volume after the boil but I've been doing the same 90/90 on a few batches now.... could it be from having better crush and efficiency and with a longer mash/boil caused it to go up. I'll admit I'm not the best on this. I understand what they are but translating that in and out of Beersmith for estimated and actuals is another thing for me.

also I'm using the GF profile add-on in beersmith but immediately found the mash sparge waters didn't match so modified it to the point where they are very close. as I side note, I wonder how that might be throwing off recipe vs. what I actually get. anyone have a real good profile match for the GF in beersmith? thanks again.

ABV impact of 6 pts higher starting, assuming same ending gravity (and that may be a big assumption!) is ~0.8%. ABV is ~ 1.3125* change in OG & FG.
Lots of variables on why. As I recently read, being in the NE US, the drier winter will evaporate wort quicker than the humid summer, so that's one factor when comparing across time at least, and with the GF I'd expect consistent boil off rates, all other things being equal, its not like w/propane where one batch you rip it, another you don't. Yes, if you change your crush, you will absolutely change your gravity potential, so if your question surrounds other input changes than it will be more to consider as well. I am finding that with the GF its fine to have a fine crush (all the BIAB folks here already knew that I suppose!).

I like the idea of working with the GF profile in beersmith. I haven't done that, nor have used the GF online measurements, I figure they are no different than in the manual, but will check. I do think the GF is overshooting the required water. At least by a 1/2 g on 60 min boil, maybe its targeted to 90, however you indicated you go 90 min. and still overshoot volume? More to consider, so gee, thanks!!

 

[Brewing_CSU_Ram_Fan]

I was at a point where I was going to have to convert my keggle system into a HERMS or a RIMS to do indoor brewing. Thus the Grainfather was my choice to keep things simple.

I have 5 brews under my belt now with the Grainfather using an adjusted profile in Beersmith. I built my profile around some suggestions found on threads here and other websites. So far my brews have come in under my target OG's with a 70% efficiency set. However, I don't think this has been a fault of Beersmith but more as a fault of improper sparging. It took 5 brews to finally figure out that sparging the Grainfather is not like sparging a keggle or cooler with a sparge arm. One must let the wort drain first is what was killing my efficiency. I figured this out by doing a gravity test on the wort that had dripped out of the grain in my container after removing the grains. So I have not been effectively rinsing the grains and instead I have been diluting the wort. That problem has been noted so I expect better efficiency in the next brew... should have read the instructions carefully.

For water profiles I have been using the Grainfather website to calculate my water.

Noting some of the topics regarding the overflow tube... I have yet to have very much wort go through the overflow. I have even had an 18 lbs grain bill (with rice hulls because I had wheat in my grain bill) and the wort flowed nicely through the grain bed. So I am assuming the temp in the grain bed has been pretty even through the process.

So far it has met my expectations in brewing 5 gallon batches. I still have my gravity system should I desire to brew a 10 gallon batch of something. But brewing indoors and not in the garage has been very fun. It is nice to be able to brew and watch a ball game on TV at the same time.

 

[Yambor44]

Sorry if you think I'm trying to fix something. My question is to you or anyone else in this thread, have you taken a temperature reading of the grain bed with a thermometer? This isn't rocket science as someone said earlier, but a very basic concept in brewing a batch of beer.

I mashed last Sunday for over 2 hours just so I could test the grain bed temp. With good amount of wort flowing down the overflow pipe, you will fall short of correct/maintaining mash temps.

I've been brewing all grain for over 10 years, this principle for all grain is about as basic as it gets. I'm not talking about being off the the target temp 1 or 2 degrees. I set the controller for a 149 degrees and started testing..........2 hours later the grain bed finally got to 147 from starting point of 138. The controller is fine, it reads 149 plus or minus a degree. The wort flowing out of the return arm is reading around 149 or so. Does nothing for you if it goes down the overflow pipe. I see the overflow pipe as the safety in the system if you step away from the system for a few minutes.

I'm gathering that Grain father users are gauging success on clear wort at the end.

Please don't take my comments/observations as threats to how the Grain Father works for you. I'm really trying to make what is a good product out of the box a great brewing system.

Sorry

Jamie

No worries! Thats why I put a ;-) at the end of that statement....that is a winky face but was on my phone and didn't see how to add one as I just did now from my desktop.

So how deep down are you measuring your grain bed temp out of curiosity?

The whole point of controlling mash temp is to hit certain final gravities at the end of fermentation. If people are hitting their expected FG, does it matter if the grain bed temp is different than the wort temp? I think not.

This is my point.

I have been all grain brewing via MANY MANY different setups for 8 years now. I've tried to get as precise and complex as I can get but at the end of the day, consistency has always eluded me. I think the GF will help get me closer to this goal. I have never hit my anticipated numbers dead on like I have with the GF. If I am expecting 75% efficiency and an OG of say 1.064 and I hit exactly that, that is what I am looking for. If my mash temp is set at 151º and it reads between 148º and 153º during the mash, I am okay with that at this point in my brewing "career". There was a time that I would have gone crazy over that. Now, not so much.

 

[Yambor44]

To Yambor44: Just thought I'd throw it out there that in my experience, beer always tastes better in a keg if you can stand waiting 30 days. My beers taste ok (green) after a week of conditioning; but really, they take on an all new personality if you can wait a month--perhaps even two in higher gravity cases like IPA. If your beer gets rid of the hefe taste when you wait, then maybe waiting is the key.

Interesting because there was a time I would try and keep my pipeline going so that a beer would be 2-3 months old from the date of brewing before it hit the tap. I brew only IPA's now (for several years) and felt like the hop flavor and aroma were always lacking.

I did some research and found many to believe that IPA's are meant to be consumed fresh which is why I sold of about 1/2 of my 16 ball lock kegs and focused on keeping things fresher. IME that has been my findings. Weird.

 

[Tang10]

No worries! Thats why I put a ;-) at the end of that statement....that is a winky face but was on my phone and didn't see how to add one as I just did now from my desktop.

So how deep down are you measuring your grain bed temp out of curiosity?



This is my point.

I have been all grain brewing via MANY MANY different setups for 8 years now. I've tried to get as precise and complex as I can get but at the end of the day, consistency has always eluded me. I think the GF will help get me closer to this goal. I have never hit my anticipated numbers dead on like I have with the GF. If I am expecting 75% efficiency and an OG of say 1.064 and I hit exactly that, that is what I am looking for. If my mash temp is set at 151º and it reads between 148º and 153º during the mash, I am okay with that at this point in my brewing "career". There was a time that I would have gone crazy over that. Now, not so much.

Each of my tests involved a quick stir and a measurement with a 6 inch digital thermometer. This is a really simple test for people to try. That was what I was hoping for with feedback.

100% agree if it falls within a few degrees of set temp, I'm fine.

 

[Tybalthophead]

Whirlpooling and letting it sit for 10min or so before beginning chilling/pumping will leave most of the hop and trub materials in a central cone and you won't have as many clog issues.. Removing the safety spring when it comes time to chill also removes further restriction (I've left mine out permanently)
No issues even with massive hop loads.

Which safety spring are you referring to?

 

[Tang10]

I thought a few pics of how I have my "Father" setup for sparging would be a change from talking about mash temps.

Any suggests for improving how I sparge? I use a 1500 watt heat stick in the sparge tank to heat the water while I mash for 60 minutes.

Jamie

 

[Yambor44]

Looks great to me!

 

[seabrew8]

Which safety spring are you referring to?

Its the little ball and spring you see inside the top of the ball valve. Its basically a check valve so wort doesn't overflow when you remove the arm or chiller. Sometimes it gets clogged up with hop debris. You should check every so often IMO or remove it.

 

[Tang10]

Bought this oven/stove thermometer for putting down in the grain mash tun to dial in the temp. Seems to easy to add for a reference point for the mash cycle.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00R3Z0EZG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[seabrew8]

Bought this oven/stove thermometer for putting down in the grain mash tun to dial in the temp. Seems to easy to add for a reference point for the mash cycle.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00R3Z0EZG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Cool, let us know how it goes!

 

[Yambor44]

Its the little ball and spring you see inside the top of the ball valve. Its basically a check valve so wort doesn't overflow when you remove the arm or chiller. Sometimes it gets clogged up with hop debris. You should check every so often IMO or remove it.

You should actually remove it and clean it out after each use IMO.

 

[gotbeer74]

I thought a few pics of how I have my "Father" setup for sparging would be a change from talking about mash temps.

Any suggests for improving how I sparge? I use a 1500 watt heat stick in the sparge tank to heat the water while I mash for 60 minutes.

Jamie

That is a nice set up

 

[Kampenken]

Nice setup Jamie! I see the lid would prevent you from seeing the top plate, but do you peek to see if you're maintaining an even level (GF recommends .4"", must be a metric conversion issue that its not 1/2"! ? I try to keep it reasonably in that range. My plan has been to set up my kettle to sparge into the GF and was considering employing my old SS braid to spread out the water, but your set up is much nicer than that!

As for your thermometer, I have one of those and used to try it for my cooler mash temps but found it would wildly fluctuate, so I abandoned it altogether. Drove me nuts. I wonder if that may be part of the issues you see. Have you been able to calibrate the probe?

Good points on the temp in the mash, but this sure has me wondering. I still wonder if anyone has done any calibrations with the GF? Part of the reason I intend to replace this STC with a STC 1000+ (program hack thread on HBT) is to add calibration as well as programming for a complete step mash / mash out. I like tinkering, though I really like the all-in one GF and sleek simple design.

 

[Tang10]

I just take a peek and adjust the ball valve to maintain the correct level as the HLT drains. Seems to work slick. I like the heat stick in the HLT, not need to heat a pot on a stove. I just fill GrainFather and the HLT to the correct levels and put the heat stick in the HLT at the start and its ready when a need to start sparging.

I haven't tried the oven style thermometer yet, but I'm hoping it gives me a good ball park what the temp is at in the mash tun. The 6 inch digital thermometer is calibrated that I was testing with last weekend.

My digital thermometer says to calibrate it by putting water and crushed ice in a glass. The temperature should read 32F if its calibrated correct. I might try this with the GrainFather probe to see how close it is.

 

[Yambor44]

I would think the best way to calibrate your probes in this case would be the boiling water test.

Water boils at 212° F at sea level. So I test my brewing and grilling thermos by heating up 4-5" of water to a boil and submerging the read point of the thermo probe.

 

[Tang10]

I would think the best way to calibrate your probes in this case would be the boiling water test.

Water boils at 212° F at sea level. So I test my brewing and grilling thermos by heating up 4-5" of water to a boil and submerging the read point of the thermo probe.

That should work. I would account for altitude if your using boiling water as a reference.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-points-water-altitude-d_1344.html

That's why some companies use the ice method I'm thinking.

 

[Yambor44]

That should work. I would account for altitude if your using boiling water as a reference.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-points-water-altitude-d_1344.html

That's why some companies use the ice method I'm thinking.

Yes, that's why I said at sea level. IMO, if you are primarily using a thermo for cooler temps then use the ice method. Ice method though leaves a lot of variables. Ice needs to be crushed, no pockets in ice, stirred while calibrating Etc.

When using thermometers for hot applications, I think the book test is mo betta!

 

[Kampenken]

I was under the impression you check both freezing and boiling points. For freezing you have to almost have an ice slurry to check correctly- so not just a bunch of cubes in a glass of water, but well crushed ice in a slurry (per Thermoworks)- doh! just read last post fully! Perfectly put. For GF test, I would just compare STC output with a well calibrated thermometer. I keep thinking this and have yet to do it. Lazy! But guess beer has been good so.... oh, 'cept for that yellow water I just made (no fault of GF, just pilot error). I figure if its total watery mess at least I created a good yeast harvest bank!

 

[Kampenken]

I would think the best way to calibrate your probes in this case would be the boiling water test.

Water boils at 212° F at sea level. So I test my brewing and grilling thermos by heating up 4-5" of water to a boil and submerging the read point of the thermo probe.

This is why I want to calibrate the STC. I figured at my 360' elevation the boiling pt is ~212, here with interpolation its closer to 211.2, and yet the STC will begin a boil around 212 (good) but then will read up to 214. Possibly its due to the sugars in the water, so a test with plain water is in the works! It may end up being just fine.