Grainfather!!

[TheMadKing]

Please verify 1 cup or 1 pound of rice hulls. TBH, not sure 1 cup of hulls in a 10# batch would cause a quick flow-through. Now 1# ... yeah I could see that really loosening things up and have a quick sparge. Quick sparge means lots of sugars were not rinsed out and left behind in the grains.

As far as sparges go, I say it's not stuck if you have not achieved a boil. At start of the sparge I flip the switches to get the boil going. I then start my sparge process. There has been only one time that it was close and I just finished as the temp was hitting 210F and I had to quickly knock down the break.

Look at it this way, all you would be doing with a quicker sparge is staring at a GF waiting for the boil to happen. Why not have a slower sparge and collect as much of that fermentable goodness as you can?

1 cup, not 1 pound, correct. It was definitely the rice hulls that made the difference. He tried another batch with them, same result, and then went back to no rice hulls and got a stuck sparge again.

According to him, there was 0 water movement through his grain bed without him stirring. Maybe he's pressing down too hard before sparging?

I'm also not 100% sure that what he is calling 0 water movement is the same as what I would call 0 water movement. I've watched him brew once, but I'm not familiar with how this system works at all.

 

[Teesquar]

1 cup, not 1 pound, correct. It was definitely the rice hulls that made the difference. He tried another batch with them, same result, and then went back to no rice hulls and got a stuck sparge again.

According to him, there was 0 water movement through his grain bed without him stirring. Maybe he's pressing down too hard before sparging?

I'm also not 100% sure that what he is calling 0 water movement is the same as what I would call 0 water movement. I've watched him brew once, but I'm not familiar with how this system works at all.

I use a Barley Crusher set at .039". My first GF batch I used a .035" setting ... now there was a slooooow sparge, but a 90% efficiency. My simple bitter ended with a slammin' ABV. Oh well.

Perhaps conditioning the grains? I've done this and it has helped. I've read some condition their grains and narrow up their crush for a higher efficiency. I leave mine at .039" with the conditioned grain and don't use the hulls. The sparge is still a bit slow, but then again, it never overlaps the boil so no problem.

 

[TheMadKing]

I use a Barley Crusher set at .039". My first GF batch I used a .035" setting ... now there was a slooooow sparge, but a 90% efficiency. My simple bitter ended with a slammin' ABV. Oh well.

Perhaps conditioning the grains? I've done this and it has helped. I've read some condition their grains and narrow up their crush for a higher efficiency. I leave mine at .039" with the conditioned grain and don't use the hulls. The sparge is still a bit slow, but then again, it never overlaps the boil so no problem.

I just double checked with him, he said that without stirring and without the rice hulls, it took him an hour and a half to sparge. So I think you're right that his crush is too fine.

 

[WesM63]

My grainfather connect control box arrived today. I'll be running it through it's paces on Friday.

 

[Kampenken]

The water comes from Lake Lanier year around, I've had it tested several times and it's consistent, so I really doubt it's a water issue.

I agree that it's odd that he regularly gets stuck sparges (almost every batch, is what he told me, so I recommended trying rice hulls). I had assumed that it was a flaw in the Grainfather basket or something, but you're implying this is not a common occurrence for folks?

I also just sold him my corona mill, so he's going to try that on the next batch.

Surface water is subject to changes based on runoff, so its always possible but if Lake Lanier is rather large and no new runoff has been added, then I'd agree, not a water issue.

This is NOT a common occurrence, that's for sure. I've read some folks have had them, but think that's in the vast minority, and I personally had one that I'd call a slow sparge, but still done within 30 min or so and prior to boil. Most of mine are done smoothly and temp ends near 200 (I flip to boil once I stop mash and pull up basket).

I just double checked with him, he said that without stirring and without the rice hulls, it took him an hour and a half to sparge. So I think you're right that his crush is too fine.

Something doesn't add up. Grist profile and stuck is odd. 1.5hrs is way long, I've never heard of that. And zero water movement?? I'm left to "dumb" thoughts now, like did he clean his basket or is it all gummed up from prior brews? Both top and bottom plate. Beyond that, idk, but its odd and there has to be something here. Sounds like he brews a lot? And this is consistent results (fast w/rice hulls, extremely long w/o? which I guess then rules out the cleaning question...)

 

[Chiller_ale]

Do some testing with a temp probe in the mash tun. It will shock you! You must start with your strike water at least 10 degrees higher to have a chance of start at 152.

Nothing shocking here. When adding pounds and pounds of grain at room temp to water of course it is going to drop. Use an online calculator to find the right temp, but it is always close to 10f for me.

Also, another tip when heating your strike water. I always let it get close to temp and turn the pump on and you will see the temp drop a lot. The temp probe is right at the bottom where it is hottest. Once the temp stabilizes add the basket and pump more till it stabilizes again. Then you are ready to add your grain.

I run the pump full speed now. I used to run it slower but the water on top really cools down fast. (I may insulate the pipe) When you run the pump full speed it mixes more and keeps the temp much closer to the setting on the controller.

 

[TheMadKing]

Surface water is subject to changes based on runoff, so its always possible but if Lake Lanier is rather large and no new runoff has been added, then I'd agree, not a water issue.



This is NOT a common occurrence, that's for sure. I've read some folks have had them, but think that's in the vast minority, and I personally had one that I'd call a slow sparge, but still done within 30 min or so and prior to boil. Most of mine are done smoothly and temp ends near 200 (I flip to boil once I stop mash and pull up basket).







Something doesn't add up. Grist profile and stuck is odd. 1.5hrs is way long, I've never heard of that. And zero water movement?? I'm left to "dumb" thoughts now, like did he clean his basket or is it all gummed up from prior brews? Both top and bottom plate. Beyond that, idk, but its odd and there has to be something here. Sounds like he brews a lot? And this is consistent results (fast w/rice hulls, extremely long w/o? which I guess then rules out the cleaning question...)

I completely agree that it doesn't add up, I must be missing something somewhere. I asked about cleaning, and he cleans it thoroughly after every batch. Correct that the result is consistent, extremely long without rice hulls, way too fast with a small amount of rice hulls.

I need to actually watch him brew again, there must be something that he's doing that he's not thinking to mention or isn't aware of.

What happens in a Grainfather if you drain the first runnings from the basket completely before adding sparge water? Just a thought I had. If the grain bed is compacting before he adds the sparge water it, it might cause a slow sparge?

 

[Kampenken]

I completely agree that it doesn't add up, I must be missing something somewhere. I asked about cleaning, and he cleans it thoroughly after every batch. Correct that the result is consistent, extremely long without rice hulls, way too fast with a small amount of rice hulls.

I need to actually watch him brew again, there must be something that he's doing that he's not thinking to mention or isn't aware of.

What happens in a Grainfather if you drain the first runnings from the basket completely before adding sparge water? Just a thought I had. If the grain bed is compacting before he adds the sparge water it, it might cause a slow sparge?

The GF instructions recommend draining off 1st runnings and then sparge. For one you need to get the top plate down first. I usually let it drain well but have started maybe
a bit earlier a few times, both results were fine. Pushing the top plate down on grain bed is just until the plate shows liquid. Not tight.

Go watch him and report back, we want to hear the end of this story!

 

[joyride75]

Anybody heard from AIH about the delivery of pre-ordered Connects? I'm getting antsy.

 

[d-bone]

Anybody heard from AIH about the delivery of pre-ordered Connects? I'm getting antsy.

o also ordered one from AIH, but I thought they said early FEB.

 

[Teesquar]

Anybody heard from AIH about the delivery of pre-ordered Connects? I'm getting antsy.

Contacted them earlier this week. They are supposed to be getting them in by tomorrow and shipping next week.

 

[Wagon_6]

So now that some of us will have an extra controller, I'm wondering if the original controller will control up to a 2000w element?

I'm thinking about adding a brewhardware 1650w element to basically double the boiling power. Or it could be used in a HLT to heat up sparge water. I know there are two elements, 1600w & 400w, not sure if the internal components are all rated at 20 amps?

 

[Teesquar]

I’ve seen more than a few posters say that they throttle down the volume, during the mash, to get very low, or no, flow down the overflow. TBH, I’ve always had mine going full bore and usually get 80-85 efficiency.

I’m curious as to the reasoning for the low adjustment. I don’t see a slower flow allowing for more extraction from the grains. Perhaps less fluctuation of the mash temp? After some initial bounce mine settles in fine (with the hysteresis adjustment).

I’m operating under the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mode, so I’ll keep it wide open for now … Just curious. Probably end up as a Coke vs Pepsi thing.

 

[Tang10]

I’ve seen more than a few posters say that they throttle down the volume, during the mash, to get very low, or no, flow down the overflow. TBH, I’ve always had mine going full bore and usually get 80-85 efficiency.

I’m curious as to the reasoning for the low adjustment. I don’t see a slower flow allowing for more extraction from the grains. Perhaps less fluctuation of the mash temp? After some initial bounce mine settles in fine (with the hysteresis adjustment).

I’m operating under the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mode, so I’ll keep it wide open for now … Just curious. Probably end up as a Coke vs Pepsi thing.

My comment would be, do you measure the actual grain bed temp? The temp probe in the bottom is only measuring the wort nearest to the element. Not saying what your doing is incorrect, but my tests show the grain bed can be cool if you start with a low strike water temp. Like stated before, start with you strike temp about 10f higher then desired.

The control of wort flow helps to make show you have the pump pulling the wort from the bed, and not just the overflow. I still think liquid will always pick the path of least resistances.

 

[TexasWine]

I’m curious as to the reasoning for the low adjustment. I don’t see a slower flow allowing for more extraction from the grains. Perhaps less fluctuation of the mash temp? After some initial bounce mine settles in fine (with the hysteresis adjustment).

I’m operating under the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mode, so I’ll keep it wide open for now … Just curious. Probably end up as a Coke vs Pepsi thing.

Not a GF owner, but I wouldn't want any overflow because of how the temp is measured. The overflow is a short circuit of the intended path, through the grain bed. If you're overflowing, then the temp you measure will in theory be warmer than the grain bed temp. How much warmer, I don't know, but I'd want the peace of mind knowing it was at least close to what the probe was reading.

 

[Minky]

I’ve seen more than a few posters say that they throttle down the volume, during the mash, to get very low, or no, flow down the overflow. TBH, I’ve always had mine going full bore and usually get 80-85 efficiency.

I’m curious as to the reasoning for the low adjustment. I don’t see a slower flow allowing for more extraction from the grains. Perhaps less fluctuation of the mash temp? After some initial bounce mine settles in fine (with the hysteresis adjustment).

I’m operating under the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mode, so I’ll keep it wide open for now … Just curious. Probably end up as a Coke vs Pepsi thing.

I've only done two batches so far in my GF and both times I throttled it back a little to prevent any overflow. You got me to thinking about it, and you're right that it wouldn't have any effect on how much flow went through the grain.

Further thinking (dangerous, I know!) led me to think of the "throttling back" as sort of a measure of how well the grain bed is draining. If you're milling the grain at the optimal gap setting, it would lessen or eliminate the need to throttle back and you'd know when your mill was set right.

PLUS: What Texaswine said!

 

[crusader1612]

Not a GF owner, but I wouldn't want any overflow because of how the temp is measured. The overflow is a short circuit of the intended path, through the grain bed. If you're overflowing, then the temp you measure will in theory be warmer than the grain bed temp. How much warmer, I don't know, but I'd want the peace of mind knowing it was at least close to what the probe was reading.

WRONG
think of it like this.

(if you add hot water to cold the body of water will stabilise at 1 temperature.)

the overflow is merely a shortcut for mixing and keeping temps relatively stable throughout the mash.

 

[RedlegEd]

I’ve seen more than a few posters say that they throttle down the volume, during the mash, to get very low, or no, flow down the overflow. TBH, I’ve always had mine going full bore and usually get 80-85 efficiency.

I’m curious as to the reasoning for the low adjustment. I don’t see a slower flow allowing for more extraction from the grains. Perhaps less fluctuation of the mash temp? After some initial bounce mine settles in fine (with the hysteresis adjustment).

I’m operating under the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mode, so I’ll keep it wide open for now … Just curious. Probably end up as a Coke vs Pepsi thing.

I'm one of those posters. I throttle back so it just kisses the lip of the overflow tube/collar. My rationale is that if I throttle back, I know that the wort is going through the grain bed. If you run it wide open, you have no idea how much is going down the overflow tube vice going through the bed. I drilled an 1/8 inch hole in the top plate to place a 12 inch probe into the grain bed to check/monitor the mash temp. I believe this, and a 10 degree higher strike will get you a good, consistent mash temperature and flow. Ed

 

[DarkUncle]

So has anyone used the new controller yet? I received mine on Tuesday and will be having the maiden run with this on Saturday.

I just imported my recipe out of Beersmith and was wondering if anyone knew if the Grainfather connect app automatically adjusts the amount of water used for mash in and sparge? When I look at the brew steps in the app the water volume used is definitely different from what is in Beersmith even with the Grainfather equipment profile.

Cheers

 

[elreplica]

So has anyone used the new controller yet? I received mine on Tuesday and will be having the maiden run with this on Saturday.

I just imported my recipe out of Beersmith and was wondering if anyone knew if the Grainfather connect app automatically adjusts the amount of water used for mash in and sparge? When I look at the brew steps in the app the water volume used is definitely different from what is in Beersmith even with the Grainfather equipment profile.

Cheers

Shut up! BTW where did you get it from? The REST of us want to know!

 

[DarkUncle]

I ordered directly off the Grainfather website last week. It arrived in 4 days time. I didn't know there was a shortage. Though I just had a look and it isn't listed anymore. Wow! Guess I got lucky. Who knew?

 

[WesM63]

So has anyone used the new controller yet? I received mine on Tuesday and will be having the maiden run with this on Saturday.

I just imported my recipe out of Beersmith and was wondering if anyone knew if the Grainfather connect app automatically adjusts the amount of water used for mash in and sparge? When I look at the brew steps in the app the water volume used is definitely different from what is in Beersmith even with the Grainfather equipment profile.

Cheers

I got mine the other day as well. Brewing with it tomorrow.

I just mounted it on the grainfather and fiddled with it a bit. This plus the app is awesome. My only complaint so-far, is the fit where the existing unit was. It's not as snug, nor does it have any mounting screws. (just the keyhole's it slides down into) It seems like it comes off fairly easily.

EDIT: I ordered direct from grainfathers website as well. Arrived in ~4days.

 

[Chiller_ale]

I still think liquid will always pick the path of least resistances.

This is water not electricity. You have an inch of water over a bunch of holes. A lot of it is going to go down the holes. The more water over the screen the more pressure it is going to have to force it into the bed.

 

[brewman !]

WRONG
think of it like this.

(if you add hot water to cold the body of water will stabilise at 1 temperature.)

the overflow is merely a shortcut for mixing and keeping temps relatively stable throughout the mash.

The overflow isn't a shortcut. The overflow path is in parallel with the grain bed path. No matter if you overflow a tiny bit or you overflow a lot, the hydrostatic pressure on the grain bed is the same and thus the bed flow is the same in each case.

Restated: the bed flows the same regardless of whether the overflow rate is low or high.

 

[Chiller_ale]

Not a GF owner, but I wouldn't want any overflow because of how the temp is measured. The overflow is a short circuit of the intended path, through the grain bed. If you're overflowing, then the temp you measure will in theory be warmer than the grain bed temp. How much warmer, I don't know, but I'd want the peace of mind knowing it was at least close to what the probe was reading.

I used to do the slow method and tested with 2 extra probes. With the slow method the water on top really cools down, so that cool water is going into the bed. Going full speed the water on top is constantly being heated so the water on top and bottom will be the same. And if your bed temp was correct at the start, every where should be the same temp.

Once or twice a mash I will turn off the pump just to see how fast the water is going through the bed and it always seems to through fine. So, now I don't worry about it too much.

Also, if I miss the strike temp I will manually bump the temp 3-4F higher for 15 min or so to get the bed to the right temp.

 

[brewman !]

See page 4 of this document for an explanation of mash flows, bed temps and how the system is supposed to work.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/sites/default/files/Tower of Power Stand Owner's Manual.pdf

 

[RedlegEd]

Restated: the bed flows the same regardless of whether the overflow rate is low or high.

Hi. I agree with your statement above, however, what you aren't saying is, if there's no (or very little) flow through the bed, you won't know that if all the wort is going down the tube. By controlling (or at least monitoring) the rate of overflow vs wort flowing through the bed, you'll have an inkling something is wrong. Bottom line, if there's not a good flow through the grain bed, you have nothing more than a very expensive BIAB kettle. Ed

 

[DarkUncle]

Only true way to know is just calculate your efficiency. I'm hovering in the low 80's with dialing the valve back some to just allowing a little bit to go down the pipe. I also do 90 minute mashes though too. Not changing a thing.

 

[skraeling]

I should have ordered from the GF website when they were still up. Bah. Keep waiting for ritebrew to get them in as they tend to be cheaper on damn near everything.

my graincoat finally arrives today, be interesting to run a test to see how it changes heating times. Anyone know what the hell the weather has been doing in the washington oregon area? Deliver has been delayed twice coming from that area.

I want the connect box just so I dont have to keep flipping the stupid switch on the bottom and I havnt even brewed with my GF yet..

Edit:

Cut 6min off reaching mash temp
Cut 10min off reaching boil

 

[TexasWine]

I used to do the slow method and tested with 2 extra probes. With the slow method the water on top really cools down, so that cool water is going into the bed. Going full speed the water on top is constantly being heated so the water on top and bottom will be the same.

Let me try to make sense of this. If all the water is going through the grain bed, and said water is cooler than the set temp on the controller, this cool water will make its way through the grain bed and show up in the bottom of the kettle where the temp probe is. The temp probe would measure the cooler temperature and provide the feedback that would tell the controller to turn the element on. But the crux is that temp will never be higher than the set point in the controller :/

It is an interesting problem, what with the water being recirculated to the top of the grain bed can never be warmer than the set temp on the controller because of the location of the probe. The water on top is bound to cool below the set point whether one is overflowing or not.

Would it make a difference, and has anyone tried, setting their temp a few degrees warmer than desired mash temp then measured the bed temp. Seems that with this set up one would need a degree or so of "superheat" , if you will, to hit the desired bed temp. Feels very similar to a HERMS set up.

So, considering all this, maybe you're on to something. If you make sure the temp on top and bottom is as close to the same temp as possible, that would hopefully keep the temps in the middle as close to the set temp as possible, assuming the gain bed is flowing at a reasonable rate. I like your idea if turning off your pump every so often to make sure the grain bed is flowing. That seems to be the best of both worlds.

I also have to remind myself that this is a simple analog controller with a pretty wide band on hysteresis. You just won't be able to hold temps to within 1/10 of a degree, so maybe this whole conversation is more academic in nature than practical.