In this recipe from How To Brew by John Palmer it has the specialty grains being steeped in the all-grain version. Do you believe this to be a misprint as I’ve never read anything before about steeping grains in an all-grain batch.
Grain steeping in all-grain batch
- Thread starter 202010
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk:
What you are trying to do with the steeping grains is to extract flavor and color. The Carabrown, being a variety of caramel malt, already has nearly all of its starches coverted to sugar and the roasted barley is kilned so well that there won't be any conversion there either. You can steep these or mash them, very little difference in the beer.
I just listened to a podcast where he talked about this. He recommended steeping grains that aren't going to extract sugars for a few reasons. Mainly, mashing those grains is pointless since the mash process is only there to extract sugars and these grains don't typically have many/any. More importantly, though, is that mashing these grains can impact your PH, requiring doctoring up your water.
jambop
Well-Known Member
I always mash my crystal malts even if it does not do anything ... I suspect professional brewers do too to each their own.
Gordon Strong recommends adding crystal and dark malts at vorlauf after the mash has been completed for these reasons.
I have pretty hard water with a high ph at my house so I prefer brewing with dark grains, it’s actually less water doctoring for me.
To me, mash vs steep comes down to “why” you choose which.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
I just mash it all together. I brew to relax and have fun, not sweat it and try to make it into a scientific project requiring exact measurements. Doesn't seem to have hurt my beers.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
Interesting read here that seems related to the question at hand:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/testing-fermentability-of-crystal-malt.208361/
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
I believe that is a misprint.
This may be helpful to confirming (or destroying) this belief
the howToBrew.com web site said:
Last edited:
pvtpublic
Whale Oil Beef Hooked
It's not really practical to put anything into the mash that doesn't need conversion, or doesn't contribute anything to the mash (regarding ph, mineral makeup, etc). In fact, you'd be better off putting them in after and recirculating to help avoid astringency from those darker grains, roasted barley especially.
jambop
Well-Known Member
Well I think Arthur Guinness would totally disagree with that tosh!
Dark malts and crystals should be included in the mash as they contribute to the make up of the mash do you really think that proper brewers fanny about steeping grains then sparging them then and then adding them to the boiler. Brewers in the the UK have been making fine beers for centuries by these methods don't go trying reinvent brewing!
Last edited:
It's a different result, both are valid options.
A lot of the crystal malts are only partially converted into sugars. So there's starch left that would benefit from the enzymes of the mash.
On the other hand, the longer chained sugars from the crystal malt might get chopped down by the mash enzymes hence becoming more fermentable. If you want a higher attenuation, that's obviously a good thing but if you want to build more body or sweetness with the crystal, this might be contrary to your intentions. So steeping after mashout would be better in that specific case.
A lot of the crystal malts are only partially converted into sugars. So there's starch left that would benefit from the enzymes of the mash.
On the other hand, the longer chained sugars from the crystal malt might get chopped down by the mash enzymes hence becoming more fermentable. If you want a higher attenuation, that's obviously a good thing but if you want to build more body or sweetness with the crystal, this might be contrary to your intentions. So steeping after mashout would be better in that specific case.
pvtpublic
Whale Oil Beef Hooked
Well, I've placed in competitions that way...sooo...no need to be rude.
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
Steeping will also extract sugars (some fermentable, some not), as well as acidity (especially from the darker grains.
How to Brew, 4e, (2017) chapter 1 suggests steeping in wort. For the "wort a" contribution, the malt extract is added at flame on. Then the steeping grains are added. The reasons for doing this are on p 13.
eta: the idea of steeping in wort
Last edited:
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
Do you have a reference (title, episode) or link to that podcast?
Steeping will also extract sugars (some fermentable, some not), as well as acidity (especially from the darker grains.
This can be measured with a refractometer (or hydrometer) and a pH meter. Brewers Friend does a good job of estimating pH of the steeped wort. Adding yeast to the steeped work (e.g. forced ferment test) can be used to measure the fermentibility of the steeped wort.
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
At the "home brew level", BIAB seems to have already done that.
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
Modern Home Brew Recipes (2016) is an interesting book because the author talks about how he brews. It talks about how he
- solved the problem of bad tap water
- simplified water adjustment calculations for mashing
- (apparently) solved the problem of variations in dark grains
Brewing Better Beer (2011) is interesting from a different perspective - as it focuses on
- ideas for how one can approach becoming a better home brewer, and
- techniques that one try.
... more generally, and at the "home brew" level:
With either book, the general approach seems to be
- (read the book)
- consider what the technique has to offer, then
- decide how it might fit (or change) one's home brewing process(es).
@jambop : the author is very clear that the book is for home brewers and that these ideas may no (or may) scale up to larger batch sizes.
Beersmith podcast, not sure which episode (I've listened to about 50 in the last few weeks), I think it's one of the water episodes where Palmer talks about how he tries to put as little into his water as possible.
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
Thanks for the lead @aceluby - I'll look into it further.
I see from the show notes in #264 that there's a new book in the pipeline ("about stove top and small batch brewing.").
He is also doing an AHA members event - "Brewing Water Adjustment" tomorrow ( Sept 1) at 11 AM MT.
Looks like some of us here in the home brewing forums will need to find new ideas to explore to stay ahead of the home brewing books.
edits: simplified some wording.
also: I appreciate books as they can set a 'baseline' or 'starting point' for home brewing. For example: no need to describe partial boil with late additions as one popular variation is well documented in How to Brew, 4e.
I see from the show notes in #264 that there's a new book in the pipeline ("about stove top and small batch brewing.").
He is also doing an AHA members event - "Brewing Water Adjustment" tomorrow ( Sept 1) at 11 AM MT.
Looks like some of us here in the home brewing forums will need to find new ideas to explore to stay ahead of the home brewing books.
edits: simplified some wording.
also: I appreciate books as they can set a 'baseline' or 'starting point' for home brewing. For example: no need to describe partial boil with late additions as one popular variation is well documented in How to Brew, 4e.
Last edited:
There are a couple of other recipes where the all-grain version also includes the "Steeped" label. It could be a misprint (copy and paste error). I don't really see a pattern between the recipes that state grains should be steeped. There is a Brown Ale on page 408 where the Crystal 80 is marked as Steeped, but the Carabrown and Chocolate Malt are not. I flipped through the text and index, and I don't see any references to steeping grains in all-grain brewing (and the example recipe used for the all-grain example does not call for steeping grains).
Personally, I have always added all my grains to the mash. I could definitely see steeping grains if you just wanted some color in a style like a Black IPA or a dark lager. An Irish Red might also be a good example where steeping the dark grains might give a little more control over the color.
jambop
Well-Known Member
Can someone please tell me what the difference is between mashing and steeping . Is a a mash when you add crushed malt grains to hot liquor and leave to mash for an hour and "steeping" when you add crushed crystal malted grains to hot water and leave them for and hour ? If that is the case why would you not want to kill to birds with the one stone and mix the malted grains with the malted and crystaled grains ? I am certain real breweries do so why would you choose not to as a home brewer? As a matter of fact I think that it would be nonsensical to make a good stout any other way ?
Last edited:
Steeping is usually a shorter time period AFAIK, closer to 1/2 hour. The reason you may choose to steep vs mash your darker specialty grains is so those grains won't impact your mash PH. This would start to become important if you are using soft water, or RO with as little additives as possible. In that case you may want to consider steeping your specialty grains separate from your mash. If you have harder water, however, the opposite may be true - where mashing those grains will drop the PH without adding stuff to your water. It's basically all down to what water you have, what you're doing to it, and understanding the impact those grains could have on your water and style of beer you're trying to brew.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
Steeping is soaking grain in water to extract/dissolve existing sugars and flavors. Crystal and caramel malts have sugar in them that is produced in the roasting process. They also have some unique flavors depending on how dark they are roasted. Darker malts have a lot of roasted flavors. Steeping can happen in hot or cold water depending on the desired results.
Mashing is soaking malted grain in specific temperature hot water to activate enzymes in the grain that convert starch to sugar. Steeping at the right temperature might convert some left over starch in caramel malt but conversion is not typically the objective of steeping. Steeping is flavor and existing sugar extraction.
Mashing is soaking malted grain in specific temperature hot water to activate enzymes in the grain that convert starch to sugar. Steeping at the right temperature might convert some left over starch in caramel malt but conversion is not typically the objective of steeping. Steeping is flavor and existing sugar extraction.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
Another reason not discussed yet is mash tun capacity. I steeped my dark crystal and roasted grain in a separate container a while ago when I was making an imperial stout. It allowed me to brew a larger batch with my 7 gallon mash/brew pot.
Cold Steeping is a very viable technique to use for dark grains when you want color and mild flavor without harshness.
Here is a basic article about it from AHA:
Cold Steeping Dark Grains
Here is a basic article about it from AHA:
Cold Steeping Dark Grains
jambop
Well-Known Member
I know that
the question is why would you not do them at the same time ? Does anybody know of a commercially made beer or stout that is not made by mashing all the ingredients together at the same time even if the mash may be stepped.
Last edited by a moderator:
jambop
Well-Known Member
One mans harshness is another mans flavour.
Last edited by a moderator:
This is just silly. What commercial brewers do has really nothing to do with this conversation. You could ask the same about BIAB, or brewing 5 gallons at a time, or one gallon at a time, or any number of things that will never apply to a commercial scale brewery that a home brewer can experiment with. This question was already answered in a myriad of ways.I know that
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
building on the AHA article
Be sure to include a refractomenter, pH meter, and a way to estimate color.from https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/cold-steeping-getting-the-most-out-of-dark-grains/ - said:
Steep enough grains to measure SG, pH, and color every 15 minutes.
As for variations on steeping, Method of Modern Home Brewing (Colby, Dec 2017) mentions three approaches with a couple of variations.
Where might these variations be useful at the home brewing level?
Well, if the flow of the liquid (water / wort) isn't welded in place, blending and splitting wort to make multiple beers in a single brew day could be interesting (e.g. Getting More from Less: Three Beers from One Batch).
Last edited:
There are plenty of opinions about whether very dark grains should be mashed for the entire time or just added at some later point "to avoid harshness". Gordon Strong does address this in one of his two books, though I don't have them in front of me right now to confirm which one.
On the other hand, there was an entire episode of Brewing with Style with Jamil and Tasty McDole and they both agreed that added dark grains later was essentially the same as using a lower percentage for longer.
On the idea of avoiding the pH impact of the darker acidic grains.. great but only if you understand what your mash pH was already going to be and you'd be making a conscious choice to avoid the acidity. More often than not, people should be more concerned about high pH in which the dark grains would be beneficial.
I personally lean towards putting the entire grist into the mash for the full time. If you have a 5.2-5.6 mash pH and it's still making harsh astringent, too-roasty beer, you are using more dark grain than you wanted. Color targets are reasonable to a certain degree, but flavor is more important.
On the other hand, there was an entire episode of Brewing with Style with Jamil and Tasty McDole and they both agreed that added dark grains later was essentially the same as using a lower percentage for longer.
On the idea of avoiding the pH impact of the darker acidic grains.. great but only if you understand what your mash pH was already going to be and you'd be making a conscious choice to avoid the acidity. More often than not, people should be more concerned about high pH in which the dark grains would be beneficial.
I personally lean towards putting the entire grist into the mash for the full time. If you have a 5.2-5.6 mash pH and it's still making harsh astringent, too-roasty beer, you are using more dark grain than you wanted. Color targets are reasonable to a certain degree, but flavor is more important.
Similar threads
