Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

[Jwin]

I've just started brewing my own recipes after a few kits and I've got my eye on this (especially as I'm re-reading The Dark Tower). I got a few questions before I start:

1. The original recipe calls for a clean ale yeast such as S-05. I have a pack of S-04, but I'm considering using T-58 (which I used for an imperial "belgian" IPA that blew my mind) or, perhaps, S-33 (but I don't know this yeast and have read that it's no good for cider). I've made a cider with S-04 but it's super dry, so I'm thinking those specialty yeast would give it more flavours. Thoughts?

2. The original recipe calls for a very light hand with the hops. Not that I don't trust the original Brandon O, but taste varies. Did anyone try this with more hop character? I got some Glacier I think I'll use, the others are all a bit high in AA.

1)of the yeast mentioned, I'd go with the so4. The slightly lower attenuation may lend to a bit more residual sweetness. But any cider is gonna be dry. To many simple sugars. Unless you back sweeten or use lactose. May get some undesirable esters from a Belgian yeast. Or you could do a split batch

2) depending on your boil time, you won't get a ton of IBUs regardless. One of the less citrusy fruity hops in a larger dose/steep could lend itself well. Amarillo comes to mind. 2-3 oz at flameout, steeped for 15-20 minutes could add a nice stone fruit dimension.

 

[KIC-8462852]

The slightly lower attenuation may lend to a bit more residual sweetness.

Hasn't S-04 got the higher attenuation compared to T-58?

But any cider is gonna be dry. To many simple sugars

I see, which is where the malts come in, I guess.

Or you could do a split batch

That would be perfect, but I'm too small-scale for now

 

[Bosh]

So the basc idea here is to take a cider and put in malt extract. I'm tempted to do things the other way 'round: do my normal BIAB routine and make some pretty standard bitter or blonde ale and put in some applestroop/cider syrup/apple molassas in at flameout. Lets me avoid DME (damn stuff sticks to EVERYTHING) and possibly caramelize some of the apple juice's fructose.

 

[ten80]

Yes, adding LME to cider works great and is a very easy way to add some non-fermentable sugars since malt extracts are generally only ~70% fermentable.

I recently added 1 lb of bavarian wheat DME to 5.5 gallons of overly tart and dry cider that was fermented with S-04. I think the FG was around 1.002ish. The fermentation then kicked back up for a couple of weeks, then stabilized at an FG of 1.008. Bingo, a slightly sweet, highly drinkable cider with increased mouthfeel. I even dry-hopped with centennial for some added flavor.

The best part about LME is that you can simply warm it and pour into the fermenter and there's no need to add any extra water, so this can be done even if you have fairly little space left in the carboy. There's no need to boil the extract since it was already boiled during manufacturing. The extract will slowly dissolve into solution and be fermented if you gently swirl the carboy every few days for about a week or so. I would caution that you do want to fully de-gas your cider prior to adding the DME unless you enjoy cider volcanoes!

 

[ten80]

... I'm tempted to do things the other way 'round: do my normal BIAB routine and make some pretty standard bitter or blonde ale and put in some applestroop/cider syrup/apple molassas in at flameout....

my only reservation for this would be that I have found that adding any sort of apple flavor when there is heat tends to quickly cook off the apple flavor.

I'd say just warm the applestroop and add it when your fermentation is 1/2 to 2/3 complete, just as I described adding LME in my previous post. The syrup will dissolve and be fermented slowly, so you'll keep the maximum amount of flavor. Gentle swirling of the carboy every few days will help the syrup dissolve. S-04 has no problem munching through additional sugars added during a fermentation.

 

[Jwin]

Hasn't S-04 got the higher attenuation compared to T-58?



I see, which is where the malts come in, I guess.



That would be perfect, but I'm too small-scale for now

I didn't even consider t58. Theyre both medium attenuating strains70-75%. even then, that's in ale, not simple sugar cider. I think t58 would be a poor choice as the esters produced wouldn't compliment cider in my opinion. Especially if you don't have fermentation temp control.

 

[Bosh]

my only reservation for this would be that I have found that adding any sort of apple flavor when there is heat tends to quickly cook off the apple flavor.

I'd say just warm the applestroop and add it when your fermentation is 1/2 to 2/3 complete, just as I described adding LME in my previous post. The syrup will dissolve and be fermented slowly, so you'll keep the maximum amount of flavor. Gentle swirling of the carboy every few days will help the syrup dissolve. S-04 has no problem munching through additional sugars added during a fermentation.

Makes sense. It is strange though how as brewers we treat things like honey and juice so delicately, often putting them in after the yeast have already finished with the barley and then we boil the hell out of our wort. Makes we want to brew some raw ale and taste what flavors get boiled off during a normal boil.

So for an AG version of this probably something along the lines of:
-Brew up some bitter or something.
-Draw off a gallon and change of the first runnings.
-Boil that down to a gallon in a soup pot on the stove. Due to being well-boiled and being the first runnings that'll have a plenty high OG.

Now the graf should have a low IBU so if it's 5 gallons and 4 of those are juice and one of those is wort then for 5 IBUs in the graf there needs to be 25 IBUs in the wort, etc. Going to get lower utilization in one gallon of this wort but don't want many IBUs anyway. Maybe 5 in the graf itself?

And possibly dry hop with something fruity or simply forego the boiled hops entirely and get some perceived bitterness from the dry hop.

 

[KIC-8462852]

I think t58 would be a poor choice as the esters produced wouldn't compliment cider in my opinion. Especially if you don't have fermentation temp control.

I see what you mean. On the other hand, it came out amazing last time I used it, and I think it might, in fact, add some cool dimensions to the cider. It should go more into a fruity-spicy direction, which doesn't sound so bad. I guess I won't know until I try!

Temp control isn't such a problem thanks to Papa Winter out there.

 

[ten80]

Makes sense. It is strange though how as brewers we treat things like honey and juice so delicately, often putting them in after the yeast have already finished with the barley and then we boil the hell out of our wort. Makes we want to brew some raw ale and taste what flavors get boiled off during a normal boil...

Don't forget that most malt is kilned and dried, so any volatiles and "delicate" flavors have already been cooked off. In contrast, apple juice, fruit, and honey contain flavor compounds that boil or cook off easily. You can test this by boiling a cup of apple juice then doing a taste comparison with a cup of un-boiled juice. The cooked cup will taste... cooked, and not as fresh!

And possibly dry hop with something fruity or simply forego the boiled hops entirely and get some perceived bitterness from the dry hop.

I recently dry-hopped my graff with centennial (2 oz for 5 gallons) and there was a definite increase in perceived bitterness.However, the bitterness and flavor dropped out pretty quickly, so I'm back to a non-hopped graff after a month in the keg.

 

[KIC-8462852]

So I had a go at the graf, using more (and different) fermentables, more hops (partly by mistake) and Safale S-04 yeast.

If anyone is interested, I posted my recipe here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7820242#post7820242. It seemed a bit OTT to add another full recipe to this long-lived thread.

 

[Ike]

SO, this is definitely getting bumped to the top of the cider brew schedule. PROBLEM: I already have five gallons kegged, and another five gallons in primary, ready to be kegged when I get the space.

The part about this that intrigues me the most is the idea of some degree of head retention in a cider. SO, what do the fine folks of HBT think about a very small mash of just the grains in a small amount of water to score the proteins needed for head retention, added to the batch that is already fermented and ready to keg? The batch in primary is sitting around 8% ABV, so I could stand to lose a little ABV by adding the mash. I figure I'd give do the mash at the standard time and temperature, in maybe 1-2 quarts of water, bring the result to a boil, and add to the keg before transfer.

Would it work? Or do the majority of the proteins in this recipe come from the DME?

 

[GuyP]

Ike in the original recipe, the torrified wheat is supposed to aid in head retention. Unless I'm missing something. Could also just add 8oz maltodextrin to the batch, since thats the intent of the brew enhancer in the Cooper's kits.

 

[ten80]

Maltodextrin would add mouthfeel but not head retention, but wheat or flaked oats would do the trick if added in the right way.

I don't think that you'd want to add proteins from wheat that have not been through fermentation to clean up the "grainy" or "worty" taste and added sugars, not to mention the added haze. Boil up a small test and blend it with the finished cider in a glass to see what I mean.

One possible option is to add about a pound of wheat malt extract (assuming you have 5 gallons of beer) and let it ferment out. It may take the addition of more yeast to finish. I described doing this a few posts ago and the result was a cider with some nice white head that dissipated quickly, but was at least better than plain cider.

 

[Chrispy92]

Dark DME and Dark crystal and ooooo yes this is a tastey beverage! Came clear and tastes peaking at 4 weeks conditioning.

That colour is on point!

Will brew again thanks for the recipe!

 

[MTtoAZ]

Started a 10g split batch last night. Half with Windsor and half with Nottingham. No signs of life with the Notti this morning but a nice Krausen with the Windsor. Added another pack of Notti just in case since it was a bit old even though the starter looked good.

Went with the following:

1# Belgian Pilzen Malt
1oz Torrified Wheat
3oz Caramel 160L
3oz Special B
2# Sparkling Amber DME
2# Golden Light DME

.5oz Goldings
.5oz Willamette

Used a large tea ball and they were swollen to its capacity so not sure I will have much hop bittering in this batch

2g RO
8g Apple Juice

OG came to 1.053 which seemed a little low to me but should work out fine.

 

[HoosteezMorgan]

What if I decided to brew up 2 gallons of a coriander,grapefruit peel,rosemary,clove, and juniper berry infused wort poured it on top of 2 and a half gallons of Apple juice and inoculated it with a 2 litre full of mead with the yeast cake(its a cheap secondary fermenter ) would it still fall in the graff qualification? I mean a gruit and Apple juice combo and some mead that's already nearing completion

 

[Jwin]

What if I decided to brew up 2 gallons of a coriander,grapefruit peel,rosemary,clove, and juniper berry infused wort poured it on top of 2 and a half gallons of Apple juice and inoculated it with a 2 litre full of mead with the yeast cake(its a cheap secondary fermenter ) would it still fall in the graff qualification? I mean a gruit and Apple juice combo and some mead that's already nearing completion

Grapefruit zest or juice?

 

[dstockwell]

My latest rendition, 2.5G batch

4# 2 Row
8oz Golden Naked Oats
8oz Crystal Wheat
8oz Honey Malt

.3oz Magnum @ 60
1oz Liberty @ 1

1G Apple Juice
S04 Yeast

IBU: 15

 

[bmwr75]

I racked my first 5 gallon batch to secondary today because it has not cleared at all 12 days after pitch. Didn't want to keg a very cloudy cider. Added 2.5 tsp of pectic enzyme dissolved in about 1/2 gallon of Musselman's Fresh Pressed apple cider (from Walmart) and will see how is clears up over a few weeks.

 

[Makintrax73]

Decided I wanted a sweeter, less alcoholic version. Reduced the DME to 1lb, and increased the Crystal to 1lb. I used 90L because I had it. Not sure that was a good idea. The wort tasted quite astringent. Hopefully I don't end up flushing 5 gallons. OG was 1.051 and pitched some S-04 yeast cake in it. We'll see in a couple weeks. Still very new at this. Based on reading up on crystal it sounds like if I wanted sweeter I should have used 40L instead of 90L?

 

[MTtoAZ]

Hopefully I don't end up flushing 5 gallons.

Give it some time. I just kegged last night after 3 weeks and it was way different on the positive side than what went into the carboys.

You can always back sweeten if you need to.

 

[Makintrax73]

Well I couldn't resist taking a gravity sample at day 6 because I had almost no airlock activity using harvested yeast stored in the fridge. Despite my worries gravity has dropped to 1.014, and the sample is tart, but quite tasty. If it drops much more I'll probably add a bit of lactose at bottling time, but so far so good. I'm going to stop peaking and let it go for two more weeks.

 

[Bosh]

What I use instead of lactose for fruit wines is oligosaccharide syrup (should be able to find it in Asian food markets that stock Korean stuff, it's called "oligo dang"). It'll give you some body, it's fairy sweet and yeast won't eat it (but bacteria will, so watch out).

Has no flavor except for sweetness.

 

[MTtoAZ]

Here is the result of the Windsor yeast batch. I back sweetened with 2 cans of concentrate and initially it seemed a little sweet but it's now fantastic! And yes, I know the glass is dirty.

 

[alnkde]

Hello. I’m new here. Nice to meet you all.

I have some questions.

Following this recipe:
Safale US-05 yeast.
.5 lbs of Crystal 60L
1 oz of wheat flakes
4.2 Gallons of apple juice.
1 gallon of water
2 lbs of DME (1 lb. amber and 1 lb. light DME)
0.5 oz 6.5%AA hops


OG is 1.061.

I’m gonna to bootle it after 2 weeks fermenting.

So, question is:
Will I need to add extra sugar or dextrose to carbonate it in bottle? Or just fill up bottles and wait 2 weeks?


THANKS.

 

[Hankhill11]

I’m gonna to bootle it after 2 weeks fermenting.

So, question is:
Will I need to add extra sugar or dextrose to carbonate it in bottle? Or just fill up bottles and wait 2 weeks?

Rather than bottling at a set time, you may want to let it ferment out all the way, unless you plan on pasteurizing(*). Many conditions will affect the full fermentation time and your final gravity, so your best bet will be to check the specific gravity in two weeks, then check it a couple days later and see if its changed. If its still active, you're best to wait til the yeast stop all activity. At that point you would have to add some type of sugar to bottle carb. Some may even recommend you rack it once and let it sit in secondary for another couple weeks or until it clears. My graff came out great and clear. pitched 4/30/2016, checked after 2 weeks, it was 1.008, 2 weeks later it was 1.005. racked to 2nd 6/2, and bottled 7/3 @ 1.008 including 3.4oz dextrose for priming. It took until 8/14 before i had carbonation.

*If you plan to bottle pasteurize, then you can bottle whenever its about the right sweetness for you. You must check it often though because it could carb within a week or take longer. If you wait to long you'll over carb, and run into safety issues. I think i've had carb within 5 days, and some up to 3 weeks. Its natural so not much clockwork here...

 

[TGFV]

Thinking of giving this a shot after my batch of cider is bottled later this week.

Has anyone tried doing this with wheat dme before? Personally I love wheat ales and think the flavour combination would be potentially great (i usually make snakebites out of wheat ale and cider when I feel like them).

 

[saltymirv]

Brewed up a 2.0 gallon batch of this with some ingredients I had laying around. First time making it.

1.5 gallons Safeway Organic Unfiltered Apple Juice
.8lb Wheat DME
.25lb CaraBohemian (70L)

.1oz Centennial @ 30
.1oz Centennial @ 0

The "wort" is cooling down to 57F in my fermentation chamber now, will pitch a packet of Nottingham soon

I also treated the juice with 1 tsp of pectin enzyme about 8 hours ago. I didn't see any noticeable difference, but hopefully it helps.

 

[saltymirv]

Update on previous post:

I pitched the yeast at 58Fand fermented it between 57-59F for 3 days, where I then let it rise to 65F. It took longer than my ales typically take. I think it finally stopped after about 7 days, but I gave it another 3 just to be sure. I conditioned it at 50F for 3 days or so then bottled it up today. It cleared nicely and has a light amber color. The taste is a little tart and with a noticeable ethanol component. Gravity went from 1.057 to 1.001, making it 7.3%. We'll see how it tastes after bottle conditioning.

 

[bolus14]

Ok, I got through about 280 pages and gave up and decided to just ask the questions I was looking for answers to.

1. Many have said this came out more tart than they were hoping for, any answers as to why? I know what might be tart to one person might not be to another so mainly just looking as to what is contributing to tartness or what could make it sweeter, without back sweetening.
2. Others have talked about different versions, I would like to make more of a caramel apple tasting graf, any thoughts on how to get there? Maybe up the caramel malt more?
3. Has anybody done an all grain version? What grains and what mash temp?
4. A couple people have posted about using a Belgian strain, has anybody tried? I was considering using Wyeast Forbidden Fruit to build up a yeast cake.
5. Has anybody changed the ratio of "beer' to AJ? What differences was there from the 1:4 ratio of the original post?