Going electric, where to start

[FuzzeWuzze]

Nice..22" is just too big for me..and $30 each is a bit steep i havent had a lot of trouble ramping or holding heat even with the pot on my stainless table. I still ramp up at 1.8F per minute which the math says is what i should get for 5500W in 19 Gallons.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yah. It was a bit steep, but I think overall the best option vs cork or plywood or something else. Spent a lot of time on McMaster looking for something. Mineral wool was a close contender, but I suspect with time and repeated water exposure is probably not the greatest option. Could probably use something different for the HLT and MLT given lower operating temps however, which would open up some other possibilities. 24x24" squares of silicone were pricey on the McMaster site.

So you get 1.8°F /min for heating 19 gallons of water in your HLT with a 5500 watt element? If that's what I'm going to get with a similar wattage and volume, I'm guessing a little less than and hour to heat to strike temps. How many feet long is your Herms coil? I haven't yet an idea of how many gallons of water it'll take to keep Herms fully submerged in my HLT and how many gallons of strike water I'll be draining from the Herms for the mash in, and if I'll need to add more water after mash in to keep the coil submerged fully. Frankly, I'm not sure how much it might matter if a few turns of the coil are exposed to air. My coil is a 50' in a 20 gal kettle.

 

[lupulinaddict]

Trickydick

Did you determine a table size? Also, what is your table height and hood height? I'm working on what height to make the hood. I would imagine lower the more efficient, but I don't know about mash paddle getting in and out.

 

[TrickyDick]

Trickydick

Did you determine a table size? Also, what is your table height and hood height? I'm working on what height to make the hood. I would imagine lower the more efficient, but I don't know about mash paddle getting in and out.

Honestly I don't know.
My friend who installs and fabricates commercial kitchen setups including hoods would know. He built mine. You are correct that the closer the top of the kettle to the hood the better. Adding an angled section so it's lower at the rear than front of hood also helps. I don't know the dimensions on mine off the top of my head.

The table is going to be 68x24x26 length, width,height. But the casters ar going to add about 6" to overall height. I think I planned it so top lip of kettles would be about center of my chest so I could work the mash paddle and what not without difficulty. Once I have it all together, I'd be happy to give you more specific measurements and let you know how it all works.

Getting the steel for my table today and hopefully welded up next week along with last few components arriving.

TD

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Yah. It was a bit steep, but I think overall the best option vs cork or plywood or something else. Spent a lot of time on McMaster looking for something. Mineral wool was a close contender, but I suspect with time and repeated water exposure is probably not the greatest option. Could probably use something different for the HLT and MLT given lower operating temps however, which would open up some other possibilities. 24x24" squares of silicone were pricey on the McMaster site.

So you get 1.8°F /min for heating 19 gallons of water in your HLT with a 5500 watt element? If that's what I'm going to get with a similar wattage and volume, I'm guessing a little less than and hour to heat to strike temps. How many feet long is your Herms coil? I haven't yet an idea of how many gallons of water it'll take to keep Herms fully submerged in my HLT and how many gallons of strike water I'll be draining from the Herms for the mash in, and if I'll need to add more water after mash in to keep the coil submerged fully. Frankly, I'm not sure how much it might matter if a few turns of the coil are exposed to air. My coil is a 50' in a 20 gal kettle.

Its hard to say because its so pot and position specific to how high your coil is. In my particular case im using a 12 1/2" 50' SS coil from Stainlessbrewing and i think i am around 9 gallons to keep it submerged? Honestly i cant remember though.

Another option I will be using for beers where i suspect i will drain below my coil is to put your estimated strike water into the MLT from the tap, and then also fill your HLT. While your HLT is coming up to temp pump your strike water through your HERMS coil as if you were holding it during a mash..this should bring your mash water up to temp along as the HLT gains temp..when your all done you now have a full HLT and your strike water is aleady warm. Otherwise as you stated after you mash in you may have to add cold water and wait for the HLT to come to temp again.

 

[jrcrilly]

So you get 1.8°F /min for heating 19 gallons of water in your HLT with a 5500 watt element? If that's what I'm going to get with a similar wattage and volume, I'm guessing a little less than and hour to heat to strike temps.

That's where a PID and heater for the MLT can save you time. The strike water is a much smaller volume than the HLT, so you can heat the strike water in the MLT much more quickly, while bringing the HLT up to mash temp at the same time. It also gives you the option of using either HERMS (recirculate through the heat exchanger) or RIMS (just recirculate without the heat exchanger in the line and use direct heat on the MLT) The directly heated MLT will change temps faster (again, it contains less volume) when you want it to (step mashes, mashout) and you can use the HERMS mode for maintaining temperatures during the rests. The setup I'm currently putting together will be such a "dual mode" rig (though gas-fired rather than electric).

 

[TrickyDick]

That's where a PID and heater for the MLT can save you time. The strike water is a much smaller volume than the HLT, so you can heat the strike water in the MLT much more quickly, while bringing the HLT up to mash temp at the same time. It also gives you the option of using either HERMS (recirculate through the heat exchanger) or RIMS (just recirculate without the heat exchanger in the line and use direct heat on the MLT) The directly heated MLT will change temps faster (again, it contains less volume) when you want it to (step mashes, mashout) and you can use the HERMS mode for maintaining temperatures during the rests. The setup I'm currently putting together will be such a "dual mode" rig (though gas-fired rather than electric).

Thanks.

I'm going electric but I don't see how you would directly heat the MLT, perhaps with a heat stick? Propane I totally understand, having previously used a direct fired mash tun. Time wise, I plan to use some automation to have it already heated when I'm ready to brew.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Its hard to say because its so pot and position specific to how high your coil is. In my particular case im using a 12 1/2" 50' SS coil from Stainlessbrewing and i think i am around 9 gallons to keep it submerged? Honestly i cant remember though.

Another option I will be using for beers where i suspect i will drain below my coil is to put your estimated strike water into the MLT from the tap, and then also fill your HLT. While your HLT is coming up to temp pump your strike water through your HERMS coil as if you were holding it during a mash..this should bring your mash water up to temp along as the HLT gains temp..when your all done you now have a full HLT and your strike water is aleady warm. Otherwise as you stated after you mash in you may have to add cold water and wait for the HLT to come to temp again.

My initial plan was to setup the BCS to open a valve (which I already have) that will fill the HLT with water, and then when the float switch activates at the top, to turn off the water filling valve when the kettle is full. I could remotely fill the HLT this way the day before I plan to brew (my RO tank will hold about 12-13 gallons, so this does take some time to regeneration once the stored water has been drained). I would need to setup all the cleaned gear of course for this to work as planned and make sure all kettle valves are closed!
The thought was then to remote heat to set point, so that when I wake up, make coffee etc, and stroll into the brewery, it would be ready and waiting.

Also there are usually slightly different mineral additions to the sparge water and mash water. Clearly I'll need to brew on this for a while before the best way to use and setup my system to its best time saving efficiency becomes apparent. Unless I add additional electro-mechanical ball valves and plumbing and a flow meter to the mix in order to heat the entire HLT to strike temp, then pump the specified volume of water over to the MLT and then maintain the MLT & HLT water at the strike temp until I'm ready to dough in, then it looks like I'm going to need to keep a part of this process manual. I'm sure between BeerSmith and the BCS that I'll be able to dial in precise strike temps after a few sessions.

One issue that presents itself is the volume measurement. My system will only have one sightglass (on the HLT). I think that will be fine as long as I can find a way to accurately measure the volume of water in the MLT. I suppose the best way would be to measure the volume of water that will be "trapped" in the tubing and pump between the HLT & MLT circuit during the transfer and note the deltaVolume on the sightglass to get fairly accurate mash water volume.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Anybody else using float switches on their electric systems?

TD

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

My initial plan was to setup the BCS to open a valve (which I already have) that will fill the HLT with water, and then when the float switch activates at the top, to turn off the water filling valve when the kettle is full. I could remotely fill the HLT this way the day before I plan to brew (my RO tank will hold about 12-13 gallons, so this does take some time to regeneration once the stored water has been drained). I would need to setup all the cleaned gear of course for this to work as planned and make sure all kettle valves are closed!
The thought was then to remote heat to set point, so that when I wake up, make coffee etc, and stroll into the brewery, it would be ready and waiting.

Also there are usually slightly different mineral additions to the sparge water and mash water. Clearly I'll need to brew on this for a while before the best way to use and setup my system to its best time saving efficiency becomes apparent. Unless I add additional electro-mechanical ball valves and plumbing and a flow meter to the mix in order to heat the entire HLT to strike temp, then pump the specified volume of water over to the MLT and then maintain the MLT & HLT water at the strike temp until I'm ready to dough in, then it looks like I'm going to need to keep a part of this process manual. I'm sure between BeerSmith and the BCS that I'll be able to dial in precise strike temps after a few sessions.

One issue that presents itself is the volume measurement. My system will only have one sightglass (on the HLT). I think that will be fine as long as I can find a way to accurately measure the volume of water in the MLT. I suppose the best way would be to measure the volume of water that will be "trapped" in the tubing and pump between the HLT & MLT circuit during the transfer and note the deltaVolume on the sightglass to get fairly accurate mash water volume.

TD

I highly suggest sight glasses on a 3 vessels if you can. Sparging im not sure how you plan to sparge if you cant tell what the volumes in your MLT and BK are. You'll need a stick or something to measure to be able to know if you've hit your volume in the BK.

 

[TrickyDick]

I highly suggest sight glasses on a 3 vessels if you can. Sparging im not sure how you plan to sparge if you cant tell what the volumes in your MLT and BK are. You'll need a stick or something to measure to be able to know if you've hit your volume in the BK.

That was my initial plan, but was somehow miscommunicated within a long email discussion between myself and the supplier/welder. It is possible to know the volume of one vessel equipped with sight glass (HLT) you can calculate estimated mash volume based on how much the water you began with and how much is left in the HLT after dough in minus estimated absorption based on weight of the grain. I could also etch my spoon for volume levels (now that I think about it, I'm going to need a longer spoon too). I am considering a DIY etching of the kettle if I can't hit consistent volume targets, rather than ship them out for the mods. One less part to clean is a plus. Dowel rod with calibrated volume marks is another idea.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Last of the gear en route, to arrive by Friday. Custom stand under construction, could be done by end of week. Need to rearrange the basement brew area and I'll be ready to brew!! Might need to come up with some alternate option on the float switches to permit remote automated fill of HLT.

Edit- welder finishing stand/table today!

 

[TrickyDick]

Cart done! HLT comes Friday. Need to do some rearranging and then will roll it beneath the hood. This is parked where I stored my old propane rig. pumps and other hardware and whatnot comes on Friday too. Had intended to have support braces at midpoint on the cart from top to bottom shelf but two pieces of steel misplaced. It's strong enough for sure even without - 11ga steel. Was planning to mount the pumps to those support braces though. Any other suggestions on where to mount the pumps? Maybe drill the shelf surface itself or something?

TD.

View attachment 1447294368748.jpg

 

[TrickyDick]

Panel is mounted but I might need to mount to drywall. That would be painful because there are no studs behind.

View attachment 1448666808112.jpg

 

[itsnotrequired]

you could always just use some burly drywall anchors, it will be more than enough to hold up the panel. if you want even more holding power, attach some 2x4s across studs and then attach the panel to the 2x4s.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks. I do think some quality drywall anchors will hold it, but worried over time with removing connections beneath that will eventually loosen. There are no studs behind the drywall. Only foam insulation which I think is 1/2". There are strips of metal called z furring spaced every 24". I could try to hit those but might be optimal placement of panel. Thinking about a piece of plywood mounted to wall with anchors and hopefully hit a piece or ideally two pieces of the z furring ( which I hope will take the screw or anchor without deflecting) then mount panel to plywood. I think just using a couple 2x4 pieces with numerous drywall anchors might be best opinion. Will probably need some custom length cords for the heating elements though if I mount to the wall. I think mine are only 6 ft.

 

[WI_Wino]

What's behind the foam board, concrete block? If so you could get some long concrete anchors and drill all the way through into the block.

 

[TrickyDick]

Not block, solid poured in place concrete with re-bar.

I'm sure that those "bulldog" type drywall anchors (if I used a bunch) would hold the weight of the panel ~50# with cables connected. mounted to a 2x4 or a 3/8" plywood sheet cut to an appropriate size. I think that if I try to hit the Z-furring strips (which hold the foam insulation in place beneath the drywall) that it would be an exercise in frustration. Plus they are on 2ft centers.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Wow. So i got the HLT back and started setting things up over the weekend. Seems I'm short about dozen or more TC clamps and gaskets!

Need to lengthen the power cords for the elements and the control panel isn't going to work where I have it mounted, so that cord will need lengthening as well, and the outlet plug orientation needs to be rotated. For the panel I bought a 1/8th piece of plywood panel that will be the perfect size to mount the panel to. I will run a bunch of drywall anchors, probably 4 of them, and then ore mount the panel to the plywood sheet (3/8") then mount that to the wall via drywall anchors and holes cut into the board.

Also, need to find a way to mount chiller and pumps. Friend who I bought the SS from had his guys load into my truck for me and two pieces were missing. My cart plan was suppose to have center supports connecting the upper and lower parts of the frame. A reason for this was to have a place to mount the pumps and chiller. So I decided to mount them to a 2x4 and then bolt that to the lower shelf. The SS sheet is HARD to drill, so I needed to get some drill bits that can do the job.

Right now I have the kettles mostly assembled with plumbing and what-not. Its beginning to look like an episode from Breaking Bad in the basement.

Picked up a set of four capacitative(?) fluid level sensors that I will use on the HLT sightglass from eBay, since my mechanical sensors got fragged trying to weld TC ferrules onto them. They are Omron brand. I had to get a set of 4 for $19 plus $45 S&H, but I will only need two (technically only one but what the heck). Anyways, if anyone wants to buy the spare two from me I'd sell them from $30 plus actual S&H to you.

What are people with TC recirculation ports using for their mash tun and HLT? I am thinking about just using the silicone tubing ans snake it through the port.

Pics soon!

Edit- Thinking about adding a couple of 3-way valves so as to avoid spillage of wort on floor. I think two valves, one on inlet and one on outlet of the wort pump would seem best, such that I could plug boil kettle and mash tun into that pump for mash recirculation and boil recirculation during cooling and for whirlpool. My only concern is if this is a setup for contamination between unboiled mash liquor and post boil wort which could set me up for infection by innoculating wort with un-boiled mash liquor in the valve and pump. I could recirculate the boil for last five minutes to sterilize the pump but not sure if the three ways valves would also be considered "sterile" if there is some residual few drops of liquor in valve even if is beyond the seals. Hoping to get some guidance on this. Lacking any input, I might do a few brews without three way valves to see if my mop is working too hard at cleanup.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Seems another thing I forgot to plan was the recirculation return for HLT and MLT.
Could snake a hose through the TC port and clamp it. Otherwise, something like these :

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Tri-Clover-Dip-Tube-1.5-Inch-x-1.5-Inch-x-.5-Inch.html

Then use hose clamps, plus a float on the MLT. Don't see any that have hose barb tip.

What are others with eHerms using?

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Well a little bit of work and I'm almost ready to brew. Need a few more fittings and what not, plus still need to etch volume marks and figure out how to use my omron capacitative fluid level detectors and electric ball valve to automate HLT filling and heating.
TD.

View attachment 1449943084999.jpg

 

[TrickyDick]

Latest progress...

View attachment 1450473530593.jpg

 

[TrickyDick]

Shortly after, I decided to set authentication and well.... I ended up needing to do a hard reset, which was a REAL PITA because the mounting bracket was covering the reset hole and there isn't much clearance inside. Plus it erased any process progamming that was on it.

Got the auto-fill line run over to the system, but my PTC fitting was leaking really badly. Ordered some new ones, and that should be here soon. Also got a couple of those float switches that #poptarts linked for me, so those will be here soon too I hope - though never know with eBay stuff. Will need to get another TC adapter though since I only have one and my HLT fittings are TC.

Got the pump power cords lengthened and have an idea of the whole brewing process and tubing switches, which I think will probably not be as terribly messy as I had feared. Going to run wort from top to bottom in the coils so shouldn't get dripping from the top connections when I change the hoses.

Kinda peeved that I lost all the processes that were programmed into the BCS because I'm not entirely sure how all the inputs and outputs were configured, not to mention the valve control output and the float switches.

Mounted the Omron sensors to the sightglass but they aren't connected to anything for now.


TD

 

[TrickyDick]

First brew yesterday.

View attachment 1451933601851.jpg

 

[TrickyDick]

Learned a lot.

This was the last five gallon batch I'll do. The hop spider I used won't work well with five gallon batches because of the liquid level being too low. Next batch will be ten gallons, and I will use the whirlpool port to see if I can finally obtain a functional whirlpool to drain hop-free wort.

I couldn't figure out how to calibrate my temp probes. They are off a bit. Probably not a big deal though since my thermapen readings for the mash did match the BCS. The HLT I think it is off by 1.something degrees. Boil kettle I don't think matters as much. Needed to fiddle with the duty cycle on the BCS processes. It had been preprogrammed with a value of 8 after the first hop addition and wasnt enough to keep boil rolling. I tried to figure out what all the duty cycle stuff meant, but never really found any useful or practical information on the wiki. So instead I cranked it up until the boil looked good. Running at full blast, this thing boiled off 1.5 gallons in 45 minutes. That was good because my precalculated dough in water wasn't enough due to the false bottom much higher than my Blichmann was. I added about double so I needed about a three gallon boil off to hit numbers. Still haven't measured OG but I have a sample in the fridge I'll check tonight.

I think etching is probably pointless. I need to devise a way to measure hot volume level and cold volume level probably using a PVC pipe marked with red and blue sharpie lines to indicate known volume of liquid based on me pouring it in then trying to mark the now wet PVC. Seems the easiest. Cannot see any etch marks on kettle from the steam in your face I would suspect.

Haven't done any fiddling with the PID or watching the mash curves. Need to remember to refill the HLT after dough in to make sure the HERMS coil is fully submerged.....

I'm sure there is a lot more to learn. I was impressed with the noise of the chugger pumps running inside, the quietness of the hood fan and the silent boil, the relative ease of cleanup, and the effectiveness of the recirculated cfc chilling method. I had very little loss in tubing because I used co2 to blow the lines clear (mostly).

Still need to get auto fill process automated, and have a couple plastic float switches on order that I hope will clear the TC adapters. Otherwise, I'll be using the omron ones with the window on the metal/plastic sight glass and an outboard project box. This doesn't sound like a fun project though.

Also have yet to determine the ideal recirculation rate during the mash. Hard to get an idea on my efficiency without a final gravity reading as well. I'm considering with a 20 gallon MLT, that I could effectively go to a no sparge and save time.

 

[prmurphy63026]

Bobby_M at Brewhardware.com has what you need for sight-gauges.

https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1820.htm

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Bargainfittings also has one that i used if you want 1/2", although Bobby has one as well you'd just need to buy a 1/2" elbow.
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=117

Also i think your ideal recirc rate will likely vary depending on grist. For some beers i can run it full out 100%, for others i need to throttle it back to 25% or so, or else i form a vacuum and get a stuck sparge.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks. I think that in order to use a sightglass, I'd need to use a TC to NPT adapter and a Tee fitting on the temp probe port since the others get pumps connected for whirlpool.

I might just try the manual dipstick method.

#FuzzeWuzze, how high up does your false bottom sit? I think mine is up about 3 inches off the bottom.

I got some float switches that were able to fit into TC adapters for my High and Low HLT level. Once I get the Process from panel builder (since I can't tell which output no. on the BCS is connected to the valve control), this will permit remote HLT fill and from there remote HLT pre-heat, probably without recirculation however, but that should be fine.

TD

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Thanks. I think that in order to use a sightglass, I'd need to use a TC to NPT adapter and a Tee fitting on the temp probe port since the others get pumps connected for whirlpool.

I might just try the manual dipstick method.

#FuzzeWuzze, how high up does your false bottom sit? I think mine is up about 3 inches off the bottom.

I got some float switches that were able to fit into TC adapters for my High and Low HLT level. Once I get the Process from panel builder (since I can't tell which output no. on the BCS is connected to the valve control), this will permit remote HLT fill and from there remote HLT pre-heat, probably without recirculation however, but that should be fine.

TD

Pretty high because i have the jaybird false bottom with the built in stand. If i remember correctly its about 2.25 gallons just to cover the thing. So i mash with 2.25 gallons more than BrewersFriend tells me since those lower 2.25 gallons arent really touching the mash, in order to get the right consistency above the FB.

 

[augiedoggy]

Pretty high because i have the jaybird false bottom with the built in stand. If i remember correctly its about 2.25 gallons just to cover the thing. So i mash with 2.25 gallons more than BrewersFriend tells me since those lower 2.25 gallons arent really touching the mash, in order to get the right consistency above the FB.

I do the same with beersmith because I have 3 gallons under my false bottom...

tricky, as far as the cycle time? do you mean the percentage in manual pwm mode or the actual cycle time ? if you are talking about the percentage number for the manual mode then its just controlling how long the element stays on for in each cycle (cycle adjustment is usually in seconds with say 2 being 2 seconds ... With the cycle time set to 2 for example 50% means the element will be on for 1 second and off for 1 second... if cycle time was set to 1 the element would be on for half a second then off..
You can also easily adjust the offset for each temp probe to read dead on..