Going electric, where to start

[TrickyDick]

Lots of good information in that thread, thanks!

Question about brew table sizing. Kettles are 17.75" diameter, three in a row. Thinking 24" front to back, 66" minimum left to right which leave about 3" space on all sides. I'm not going to be moving the kettles at all once I have them set to go. Is that too close? The physical space will allow up to 74" I could increase the spacing to 4" and go to 68" wide. I just am not sure how much spacing is desirable between the kettles to manage the transfers and recirculation.

TD

 

[brettwasbtd]

If you are building it out of wood I would recommend 72" as that works out nicely for cuts and what not with dimensional lumber

 

[TrickyDick]

Stainless

 

[TrickyDick]

Placed order for kettles today. Probably won't be up and running for a while however. Still need hood and exhaust hole drilled.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hood going in today.

Thoroughly pissed off SWMBO.

Had planned for this to get done while out of town on summer vacation but the schedule got hosed.

The friend of mine who is doing it, had to sub contract the hole driller with another person. Takes a special saw to cut poured rebar concrete walls. So today I thought my wife was going to be playing golf, but nope. Tried to get her to arrange some activities out of the house as said metal workers were going to be "stopping by" to finish some gutter work that had started a couple weeks earlier.
So she had a lot on her agenda, but it didn't begin early enough and the hole driller guy parked her in so she couldn't get out.

Then my son spills the fact that I was planning to have this all done while we were out of town...

So I'll be in the doghouse.

Why did I go through all this? Because I know she would be inappropriatly opposed having a hole cut into the wall when it poses absolutely no issues or impact to her or the things stored in the separated basement storage area.

Then on top it all, she is there while hole is being cut..

So shame on me for trying to go behind her back on this one. I should've just told her it was happening today, and she should make plans to be out of the house so it wouldn't upset her with the noise.

TD

 

[augiedoggy]

Hood going in today.

Thoroughly pissed off SWMBO.

Had planned for this to get done while out of town on summer vacation but the schedule got hosed.

The friend of mine who is doing it, had to sub contract the hole driller with another person. Takes a special saw to cut poured rebar concrete walls. So today I thought my wife was going to be playing golf, but nope. Tried to get her to arrange some activities out of the house as said metal workers were going to be "stopping by" to finish some gutter work that had started a couple weeks earlier.
So she had a lot on her agenda, but it didn't begin early enough and the hole driller guy parked her in so she couldn't get out.

Then my son spills the fact that I was planning to have this all done while we were out of town...

So I'll be in the doghouse.

Why did I go through all this? Because I know she would be inappropriatly opposed having a hole cut into the wall when it poses absolutely no issues or impact to her or the things stored in the separated basement storage area.

Then on top it all, she is there while hole is being cut..

So shame on me for trying to go behind her back on this one. I should've just told her it was happening today, and she should make plans to be out of the house so it wouldn't upset her with the noise.

TD

And this is why im not married... Dont get me wrong when its good im sure its great!..

 

[TrickyDick]

Here is a (bad) picture of the hood.

View attachment 1438292241226.jpg

 

[Mdsutton]

Everyone talks about cheaper PIDs from ebay; which model, links???

thanks!

 

[SilverZero]

Everyone talks about cheaper PIDs from ebay; which model, links???

thanks!

Mypin TA4 or TD4. The TD4 has manual mode which most people like/need for boil kettle control. Should be all over eBay and Amazon for $30ish. Search eBay for "TD4 temperature" and look for a good deal. Might as well get one with an SSR and maybe a pt100 probe for a bit extra.

TA4 does not have manual mode but is fine for HLT control or mash tun temp display. But they're not much cheaper and they might look slightly different if aesthetics is a concern. You can see both in my rebuild thread.

 

[TrickyDick]

So kettles should be here by the end of the month. Big props to Tim Moore at Colorado brewing systems. Helped me setup a multiple payment invoice after multiple detailed emails about the system I wanted to build, custom welds, etc. Pricing is competitive and has all the features I wanted.

In preparation of the kettles arriving, I was wondering about insulation, or how to keep the kettles from superheating the tabletop (stainless). I was thinking about some cork or silicone mats perhaps? What are others using, or isn't this a real problem? Also wondering about possibly wrapping some light insulation material around the kettles without permanently affixing or disfiguring them, so as to limit radiant heating into the basement. I don't really want to go overkill on this insulation wrap, but I figure a little bit could help stabilize temps and keep room comfortable through the brew day.

Thanks


TD

 

[TrickyDick]

No suggestions on kettle insulation?

So my propane Brutus inspired brewing rig, kettles, and all is now gone. Sold it today and feels a little wrong, but it was a lot of fun. I don't need two, though have now lost portability.

All parts on order now except some casters for the custom stainless table/stand commissioned.

Thinking about suspending the panel from the metal trusses. Not sure how to pull that off. Any suggestions? Basement walls are poured concrete with thin layer foam insulation and drywall over top. Not really thinking that a wall mount would be best. Is said to weigh 50#

Also any suggestions on mounting of pumps or of chiller? My table has a lower shelf. I'm using either a convoluted copper counter flow or a leaky immersion chiller that tends to drip a lot. Trying to think of a way to mount the convoluted chiller to mitigate dripping sticky wort all over the basement floor. Considering using it to chill the cooling water via my smallish glycol DIY cooler, then use in conjunction with the immersion chiller.

TD

 

[augiedoggy]

So kettles should be here by the end of the month. Big props to Tim Moore at Colorado brewing systems. Helped me setup a multiple payment invoice after multiple detailed emails about the system I wanted to build, custom welds, etc. Pricing is competitive and has all the features I wanted.

In preparation of the kettles arriving, I was wondering about insulation, or how to keep the kettles from superheating the tabletop (stainless). I was thinking about some cork or silicone mats perhaps? What are others using, or isn't this a real problem? Also wondering about possibly wrapping some light insulation material around the kettles without permanently affixing or disfiguring them, so as to limit radiant heating into the basement. I don't really want to go overkill on this insulation wrap, but I figure a little bit could help stabilize temps and keep room comfortable through the brew day.

Thanks


TD

The insulation is just not needed... If you are recirculating your mash with a herms or rims setup then honestly, its more effort than its worth. the electric is extremely cheap and insulation will just complicate cleanup. plus your hood should be plenty to remove any radiant heat. Now as far as insulation for under the kettles any plain wood spacer would work fine from circles cut out of plain non painted or finished plywood to cosmetically pleasing solutions like pizza cutting boards or cork) (I use 3/8" floor underlayment.)

 

[TrickyDick]

Perfect!
Saves me the trouble!
Am told all gear finishes and ships Friday, might be hold up on probes.
Getting stoked to brew in comfort!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

I can't find any 3/8" underlayment at home despot (only really thin crap). Would ceramic tile or travertine tile (1/4") work?

I also understand that plywood is heat resistant up to 450º (can anyone verify?) I could also order some 12x36 sheets of 1" thick cork from mcmaster for under $10 each. What is the highest temp the kettles are going to be getting? I think the boil kettle might eke out just over 212?

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Sold my propane rig two weeks ago.

New BCS controlled Panel arrived today. WOW. What a thing of beauty! Attention to detail is incredible.

Two of three kettles are here. I think there was a mixup in the ordering process so I'll likely need to return them for additional ports, which hopefully won't be too painful.

Hopefully the learning curve isn't too bad. Using a BCS semi-automated process might be initially frustrating... time will tell.

Can't wait to break her in! LOL!

Planning to add remote fill automation and remote heating to target strike temp! That'll be a huge time saver on brewdays for sure. I would still plan to mill my grain outdoors a day before (or at least measure out). Otherwise, I'm an indoor brewer soon! Funny that many of us begin on a stovetop doing extract brew, move outdoors and then move back indoors after going through propane and then back to electric setup. I will never forget the stovetop boilover cleanup......HUGE mess....

TD

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

I can't find any 3/8" underlayment at home despot (only really thin crap). Would ceramic tile or travertine tile (1/4") work?

I also understand that plywood is heat resistant up to 450º (can anyone verify?) I could also order some 12x36 sheets of 1" thick cork from mcmaster for under $10 each. What is the highest temp the kettles are going to be getting? I think the boil kettle might eke out just over 212?

TD

The problem with cork is that as soon as you spill water or beer on it, its toast, its going to fall apart and or mold and theres nothing you can do about it.

I just went on Amazon and bought some 12" Circular silicone things people put on their microwave plates to keep them easy cleaning...the silicone is up to like 550F sustained 650F for bursts..which is way more than your ever going to see. The nice thing about Electric is your pot is never going to get above 212F. Yes 12" is smaller than most pots, but its more about getting the pot up and off the table..if its on silicone or the edges are floating it doesnt matter.

As others said, Insulation is a waste of time i wouldnt bother unless your using underpowered elements.

 

[TrickyDick]

Well that sucks...
I had already ordered some sheets of cork.
Well I guess I'll use them until they fall apart!

Where are people placing their probes in a Herms configuration?

Are two probes needed for the mash, in tun and at Herms output? Seems likely so.

RH

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Well that sucks...
I had already ordered some sheets of cork.
Well I guess I'll use them until they fall apart!

Where are people placing their probes in a Herms configuration?

Are two probes needed for the mash, in tun and at Herms output? Seems likely so.

RH

Your HLT probe should always be in your HLT output , you should be recirculating your HLT water the whole time anyways to keep it moving.

Your MLT probe there are two spots, which you chose is really up to you and it doesnt seem to make a difference. Either at your MLT input, or your MLT output.

Kal always uses outputs, but the MLT input made more logical sense to me. That way if i want my mash at 153 i know the water coming in is exactly 153, not 153 after its been pulled through the mash. But we are talking fractions of degree's here anyways.

Your first go your going to want to figure out what your loss is between your HLT and MLT temps. You control your MLT temp through setting your HLT PID. For example i have to set my HLT to 154.5 to hold my mash at exactly 153...i lose about 1.5F in the journey out the MLT, through the hoses and pumps before it gets back up to 153F coming out of my HERMS coil and back into my mash. For most people this is 1-2F but you'll have to play with it as its different system to system depending on how long your hoses are, how cold it is outside etc.

 

[brrman]

I have one in the HLT, one on the mash spigot exit and one in the BK (since I cool and whirlpool after boil)

I tried both places for HLT on my prev e-Herms system (in the HLT and on the output during water re-circ) and the diff was negligible.

 

[TrickyDick]

Your HLT probe should always be in your HLT output , you should be recirculating your HLT water the whole time anyways to keep it moving.

Your MLT probe there are two spots, which you chose is really up to you and it doesnt seem to make a difference. Either at your MLT input, or your MLT output.

Kal always uses outputs, but the MLT input made more logical sense to me. That way if i want my mash at 153 i know the water coming in is exactly 153, not 153 after its been pulled through the mash. But we are talking fractions of degree's here anyways.

Your first go your going to want to figure out what your loss is between your HLT and MLT temps. You control your MLT temp through setting your HLT PID. For example i have to set my HLT to 154.5 to hold my mash at exactly 153...i lose about 1.5F in the journey out the MLT, through the hoses and pumps before it gets back up to 153F coming out of my HERMS coil and back into my mash. For most people this is 1-2F but you'll have to play with it as its different system to system depending on how long your hoses are, how cold it is outside etc.

Thanks!
Ambient temp I can set on the thermostat!
So, to pick your brain, why always HLT output temp probe as opposed to just monitoring the temp in the HLT itself? Since it's always recirculating, wouldn't I want the whole tank temp? Seems that the output is going to be higher temp if being pulled from bottom of the kettle where the burner is if the burner or element rather is on?

Also for mash tun, when you say input do you mean the temp of the wort coming out of the Herms coil? And for output, what's coming from beneath the mash screen at the bottom of the kettle? In a step mash situation, you would want to monitor both temps I would think, as the wort going into the Herms is going to represent the temp in the mash tun overall, and the temp coming out of the Herms is going to represent your next step temp. If you are only monitoring the temp coming out of the mash tun and into the Herms, you could inadvertently overshoot your temp in the Herms while the overall mash temp lags behind.

As far as the boil kettle, I'm not really sure why you need to have an indwelling probe at all. Maybe to prevent wort scorching from the electric element to control duty cycle? Otherwise would seem that if you are immersion chilling it in the boil kettle would be nice to know the temp. Otherwise you could just put the temp probe inline with a counter flow or plate chiller or whatever you're using, and not the boil kettle.

TD

 

[itsnotrequired]

As far as the boil kettle, I'm not really sure why you need to have an indwelling probe at all. Maybe to prevent wort scorching from the electric element to control duty cycle? Otherwise would seem that if you are immersion chilling it in the boil kettle would be nice to know the temp. Otherwise you could just put the temp probe inline with a counter flow or plate chiller or whatever you're using, and not the boil kettle.

TD

you will want that temp prob if you ever wanted controlled temp in the boil kettle. an example may be cleaning, when you want to cycle cleaner through the boil kettle at a set temp for a set period of time. also good if you want to do sous-vide cooking.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks for the help guys!

Waiting on a few more parts and one kettle still. Then I'll need a weekend to get it all setup cleaned and programmed. Will eventually be plumbing the water fill line as well.

TD

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Thanks!
Ambient temp I can set on the thermostat!
So, to pick your brain, why always HLT output temp probe as opposed to just monitoring the temp in the HLT itself? Since it's always recirculating, wouldn't I want the whole tank temp? Seems that the output is going to be higher temp if being pulled from bottom of the kettle where the burner is if the burner or element rather is on?

Also for mash tun, when you say input do you mean the temp of the wort coming out of the Herms coil? And for output, what's coming from beneath the mash screen at the bottom of the kettle? In a step mash situation, you would want to monitor both temps I would think, as the wort going into the Herms is going to represent the temp in the mash tun overall, and the temp coming out of the Herms is going to represent your next step temp. If you are only monitoring the temp coming out of the mash tun and into the Herms, you could inadvertently overshoot your temp in the Herms while the overall mash temp lags behind.

As far as the boil kettle, I'm not really sure why you need to have an indwelling probe at all. Maybe to prevent wort scorching from the electric element to control duty cycle? Otherwise would seem that if you are immersion chilling it in the boil kettle would be nice to know the temp. Otherwise you could just put the temp probe inline with a counter flow or plate chiller or whatever you're using, and not the boil kettle.

TD

To your first question, you dont PID control your mash tun because its too slow to react. By the time your MLT gets to say 153 via controlling the HLT, your HLT will be much warmer...sure your MLT will turn off the HLT element but your still pumping your mash through the HLT which is probably many degree's higher than 153F which is a bad thing because then your mash will continue to rise...the only way to stop it is to manually turn on and off your pumps at that point to try and maintain around 153F..which is a huge pain in the ass. Does that make sense? Its a bit hard to write into words lol.

If instead you set your HLT to 153, you know that the wort can never get above 153F..ever..it will get there and be stuck.

Yes to input and output...For the second question are we talking BIAB or a traditional 3 vessel EHERMS? You have no burner or element in your mash tun in a 3 vessel system. This is why you monitor the HLT temperature and not the MLT. If your recirculating 153F water in your HLT and pumping 145F mash(after dough in for example) through your HERMS coil then your mash will slowly rise to equalize with the 153F HLT and hold. Same for step mashes, you raise the HLT temp to 155, and as it rises to 155 your mash will rise with it as it pumps through the coil..obviously it will lag very slightly behind as the HLT is getting direct heat and the Mash is just getting indirect heat transfer through the coil.
The MLT does nothing but tell you what your mash is, it doesnt control anything...it does however give you the information you need so you know what temperature to set your HLT to(like i said for me its HLT= Mash Target + 1.5F

And yes a Boil probe really does nothing, you usually just set to 100% then down to 70-80% when you reach a boil.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yeah, makes sense. I have a three vessel eHERMS I'm building using a BCS based control panel built by electric brewing supply. My vessels I got from Colorado Brewing systems. Highly recommend both vendors by the way, though I'm sure others are just as good, these two had the particular features I was looking for.

I am sure that there will be a learning curve adapting to the new system.

I understand FuzzeeWuzzee what you're saying about the PID mash tun control and why it won't work. I wonder how long it will take to do step mashing to raise the HLT temps. My guess is that it'll be much more efficient and faster than the old Brutus style system.

One question if you could clarify, is this. In the setting of a step mash with HERMS heating, how would you know when the main mash has reached target temp without adding a probe to the mash tun itself? For instance lets give an example:

mash at 154 and I want to do a mash out for 5 minutes before sparging.
I set the temp on the HLT from 154 up to 168. Once my HLT water reaches 168, how will I know when my full mash tun temp reaches 168, not just the recirculating wort that is exiting the HERMS coil which I would assume would reach 168 on its first pass once the HLT is up to temp and truly, since the HLT temp is heating continuously from 154 to 168, the mash is also heating simultaneously as long as I continue recirculation, perhaps with a bit of a lag.

One thought is to monitor the mash tun temp and not the wort exiting the HERMS coil, since I already know that the exiting wort will never exceed the HLT temp. I could see in real time the difference in temp between the two to get a sense of any lag, and once the HLT is fully up to temp, see how long it takes the mash tun to catch up, which I'm sure is a function of the overall mass of liquid and grain in the mash.

Anyways, thanks again for the help and insight.

TD

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

One thought is to monitor the mash tun temp and not the wort exiting the HERMS coil, since I already know that the exiting wort will never exceed the HLT temp. I could see in real time the difference in temp between the two to get a sense of any lag, and once the HLT is fully up to temp, see how long it takes the mash tun to catch up, which I'm sure is a function of the overall mass of liquid and grain in the mash.

Anyways, thanks again for the help and insight.

TD

The wort in the mash tun IS the temperature of the wort leaving the HERMS coil.

You are right you do need to measure it. Your "Mash" temperature is the temperature of the wort right as it enters your mash tun(after coming out of the HERMS coil). This is merely a temperature probe and does no controlling.

Your HLT probe is on the outlet of your HLT water, which you are then pumping back up to the top of your HLT to keep recirculating to keep a more even temperature throughout the HLT.

But yes how long it takes for the Mash to catch up has a lot of variables, mostly just the volume of water.

In your sparging example, your mistaken thinking that your wort coming out of your coil is going to go from 154->168 in one pass. You pump wide open to get the most flow and the best heat transfer, so your wort coming into your Mash tun will only be a fraction of a degree hotter each time it goes through. The theory is that while yes you could just pump really slowly through the mash tun and get part of it to 168 while the rest is at 154 the better solution is to go full blast through the HERMS so that the temperature differential is larger for a longer period of time and your raising the temperature of the wort as a whole.

Have you ever used a counter flow chiller and pumped through it full blast? It only takes the wort down a fraction of a degree...same concept but in reverse.

It doesnt take that long to get up to temp, maybe 10-15 minutes from a typical mash temp to a sparge temp.

There will be a temperature gradient in your mash tun, so there is no good place within the mash itself to measure, hot spots, cold spots, etc. At least not any better or worse than measuring the input or output.

 

[TrickyDick]

Good info!!
I think experience will help me figure the best places to position the probes.
Can you really run the Herms recirculation wide open without compacting the grain bed? I could never do this in my Blichmann mash tun. I've got different setup now so I guess I'll have to find out.

Most of equipment is now in, still waiting on two boxes from kettle supplier with HLT/HERMS and misc clamps, elements, and pumps. Will hopefully have the brew table finished by next weekend.
Just need need some free time in November to get it all setup and rearrange the basement.

TD

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Good info!!
I think experience will help me figure the best places to position the probes.
Can you really run the Herms recirculation wide open without compacting the grain bed? I could never do this in my Blichmann mash tun. I've got different setup now so I guess I'll have to find out.

Most of equipment is now in, still waiting on two boxes from kettle supplier with HLT/HERMS and misc clamps, elements, and pumps. Will hopefully have the brew table finished by next weekend.
Just need need some free time in November to get it all setup and rearrange the basement.

TD

Good point I guess it will vary with false bottom. I have a jaybird false bottom, and go all open during mash.

 

[TrickyDick]

Good point I guess it will vary with false bottom. I have a jaybird false bottom, and go all open during mash.

I am not familiar with that brand. I will have to wait to see how min performs, also bought with kettle from Colorado brewing systems

So I have been looking for ideas on what to place beneath the kettles beside cork. The kettles are large, 17.75" diameter at the base. I really wouldn't want an under sized silicone hot pad and damage or bow the kettle bottom. I found that you can buy square mats of many different thickness and size and materials at McMaster.com. The silicone is rather expensive. What isn't expensive though is this stuff called mineral wool. It's like $8 for one square big enough for one kettle. It claims to be moisture resistant. Anybody using this stuff? I have cork on the way already, but when that goes bad as I am told it will once wet, then this mineral wool will be the next thought. Anyone using marine grade plywood? That is also supposed to resist heat and water.

TD

 

[pretzelb]

So I have been looking for ideas on what to place beneath the kettles beside cork. The kettles are large, 17.75" diameter at the base. I really wouldn't want an under sized silicone hot pad and damage or bow the kettle bottom.

I was going to include a link from the Brew Boss site but it doesn't appear to be an option for sale. Anyway, when you buy a system from him there is an option for a 3 pack of silicon hot pads. Since his system is a single kettle I assume the 3 pack will easily accommodate a really big kettle. I don't think the cost was high so maybe just search some home cooking sites for similar items? Probably not the answer you wanted but just trying to help.

 

[TrickyDick]

HAH!

eBay find! 22x1/8 inch diameter/ thick high temp silicone heat pads!
Seller name is hrc201010, I think he has some left. $29.99each.
Now what to do with the damn cork sheets I bought.....

TD