full volume mash

[fluketamer]

after looking at this a lot it seems to me that for a pound extra of grain its worth the time of not sparging.

i usually sparge til preboil volume is reached.
with no sparge do you just start with the preboil volume plus the grain absorption ?

 

[corncob]

Yes. Or start with whatever and add infusions up to full volume.

When the bell rings, give it a good stir and pull the bag or vorlauf until no grain comes through and let her rip.

 

[corncob]

No sparge, batch sparge, and partigyle are all really the same method. They only differ by degree. Fly sparging is the only different method.

 

[DBhomebrew]

No sparge, batch sparge, and partigyle are all really the same method. They only differ by degree. Fly sparging is the only different method.

Huh?

 

[kevin58]

No sparge, batch sparge, and partigyle are all really the same method. They only differ by degree. Fly sparging is the only different method.

Jiminy Christmas what bad advice! No. No they are not the same method.

No sparge starts with your full volume of water with no sparging at all.

Fly sparge starts with a pre set volume of water to mash with - then add sparge water on top of the grain bed at the same time that wort is being drained from the mash tun - sparging stops when the desired volume in the boil kettle is reached.

Batch sparge starts with a pre set volume of water to mash with - drain the wort all at once from the mash - then add another pre set volume of water is added to the grain bed - drain this wort all at once from the mash.

Partigyle starts with a pre set volume of water to mash with - drain all the wort from the mash and use that to make a strong beer - then add another pre set volume of water to the same grains and mash again - drain all that wort from the mash and use to make a weaker beer. You can also blend the two worts to make a third in-between strength beer. And that's just the over simplified version of partigyle.

 

[DBhomebrew]

You can also blend the two worts to make a third in-between strength beer.

I believe this would be the only true parti-gyle in the traditional sense. Blending of the parts being the key. A beer made in parts of various gyles.

 

[kevin58]

I believe this would be the only true parti-gyle in the traditional sense. Blending of the parts being the key. A beer made in parts of various gyles.

Correct. There is a true partigyle and then a homebrewers over simplified version. For anyone who reads this and is curious about true partigyle methods I suggest the book "Guile Brews" by Peter Symons.

 

[David Coy]

Correct. There is a true partigyle and then a homebrewers over simplified version. For anyone who reads this and is curious about true partigyle methods I suggest the book "Guile Brews" by Peter Symons.

I see that this book is available on Lulu for a much better price than on Amazon.

https://www.lulu.com/shop/peter-sym...5ZkNoikne6RjGgOJzgZiBik8dWg&page=1&pageSize=4

Can you comment on the quality of the book in general and perhaps list a few of the more interesting (to you) recipes included?

 

[corncob]

Yeah, I figured that would get some reactions. I say only fly sparging is different than the others because there's a concentration gradient of sugar in the liquid as it goes through (goes through) the grain bed.

The others are all the same because there isn't. Runoff can be fast because the concentration of sugar in the liquid (including the portion that stays behind with the husks) is the same every where.

A batch sparge begins with a no sparge. A partigyle begins with a batch sparge.

In fact, if you watched a man perform either a batch sparge or a partigyle, you wouldn't know which one it was unless he told you how many boil kettles he was about to use.

 

[mac_1103]

with no sparge do you just start with the preboil volume plus the grain absorption ?

Simple question, right? Unless you read the rest of the thread.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

after looking at this a lot it seems to me that for a pound extra of grain its worth the time of not sparging.

i usually sparge til preboil volume is reached.
with no sparge do you just start with the preboil volume plus the grain absorption ?

I do full volume mashes all of the time. My mash tun easily holds all of the required grain and water. I brew ten gallon batches.

No problems at all, beer turns out fine and saves me time.

Just as you indicated, figure out what the grain will absorb, add the extra water and go.

 

[Bobby_M]

Simple question, right? Unless you read the rest of the thread.

I waver on my opinion of this phenomenon all the time. On one hand, some people just want yes or no answers. The real world dictates that nothing is clean yes or no. Some things are mostly yes or mostly no and you'd list the exceptions or situational conditions. Being that this is a brewing forum where discussion is the expectation I usually welcome the nuanced "yeah, but".

On the other hand, I think the collective sometimes misses the mindset of the OP and can scare them off.

 

[Bobby_M]

after looking at this a lot it seems to me that for a pound extra of grain its worth the time of not sparging.

i usually sparge til preboil volume is reached.
with no sparge do you just start with the preboil volume plus the grain absorption ?

With the help of software, good volume measurements, and careful note taking, you can hone in on the needed volumes and your new mash/lauter efficiency within 2-3 batches. Set your mash/lauter efficiency to 70% for the first try. Grain absorption is going to be somewhere in the .31 qts/lb area.

My brew yesterday was one of those where everything I measured matched Brewfather's predictions almost perfectly. I mean everything, the preboil volume and gravity was right on. Mash pH was 5.37 just like predicted. Even though I'm on my 30th batch using Brewfather, it's not always perfect and I don't stress about it too much but I do tweak my equipment profile any time the numbers are a little off.

In a related note, that's one benefit of no sparge full volume. At any moment in the mash, testing the gravity is predictive of the preboil SG because it is not a concentrate that gets diluted by a relatively unpredictable sparge runoff.

 

[mac_1103]

On the other hand, I think the collective sometimes misses the mindset of the OP and can scare them off.

Yeah, I don't think this one scares that easy.

 

[Bobby_M]

Yeah, I don't think this one scares that easy.

I only brought it up because I've seen threads where it's a new forum user's first ever post, and you know...

 

[doug293cz]

In a related note, that's one benefit of no sparge full volume. At any moment in the mash, testing the gravity is predictive of the preboil SG because it is not a concentrate that gets diluted by a relatively unpredictable sparge runoff.

I will disagree here. It is fairly straight forward to predict both the initial mash runnings SG and batch sparge runnings SG(s) if you know your typical conversion efficiency (or just the end of mash SG), and have good control of your volume measurements. If you know the volumes and SG for each running, you can calculate your pre-boil SG and volume very accurately. I have a spreadsheet that does these calculations.

I do agree that with fly sparging, things are much less deterministic.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

I will disagree here. It is fairly straight forward to predict both the initial mash runnings SG and batch sparge runnings SG(s) if you know your typical conversion efficiency (or just the end of mash SG), and have good control of your volume measurements. If you know the volumes and SG for each running, you can calculate your pre-boil SG and volume very accurately. I have a spreadsheet that does these calculations.

I do agree that with fly sparging, things are much less deterministic.

Brew on

I don't think we disagree. Even with the predictability of batch sparging gravity, it's still a thing you have to do. It is possible that I'm putting a lot of value in measuring the mash wort, comparing it to my batch preboil gravity prediction to call it done or slightly extending the mash to hit it. If it feels easy to someone with experience, it should be amplified for people who are just getting into AG brewing.

 

[doug293cz]

I don't think we disagree. Even with the predictability of batch sparging gravity, it's still a thing you have to do. It is possible that I'm putting a lot of value in measuring the mash wort, comparing it to my batch preboil gravity prediction to call it done or slightly extending the mash to hit it. If it feels easy to someone with experience, it should be amplified for people who are just getting into AG brewing.

I am not advocating for either full-volume mashing, or any particular sparging process. I'm only trying to provide the most complete information I can to other brewers, so they can make educated decisions. Personally I BIAB, and almost always full-volume, no-sparge.

I also preach measuring SG during mashing to determine when the mash is done, vs. just depending on an arbitrary mash time. Having a value for end of mash wort SG also enables the most straight forward way of calculating conversion efficiency (and thus separating mash efficiency into its two factors: conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency.) When batch sparging, it is possible to calculate conversion efficiency with only the pre-boil gravity (along with grain bill potential, strike volume, and run-off volume(s)), but it requires making some assumptions that may, or may not, be valid for a particular brew session.

Brew on

 

[fluketamer]

Yeah, I don't think this one scares that easy.

im taking this as a compliment.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

im taking this as a compliment.

Sounded like a compliment to me.

You know how it is when you ask a question here. A first timer trying to really learn might end up trying a different hobby after they get through the responses.

 

[odie]

how does this save any time? Just mash with the standard volume. run it off to the kettle and immediately start the boiling process. At the same time you sparge the grain bed and add the running to the kettle as it's coming up to boil temps. once you reach your pre-boil starting volume you are done sparging and pretty close to boiling.

You are not going to go from mash temp to boil temps instantly...the whole time you are waiting on the boil temp to be reached is the time you can spend sparging and extracting more sugary wort.

 

[fluketamer]

how does this save any time? Just mash with the standard volume. run it off to the kettle and immediately start the boiling process. At the same time you sparge the grain bed and add the running to the kettle as it's coming up to boil temps. once you reach your pre-boil starting volume you are done sparging and pretty close to boiling.

You are not going to go from mash temp to boil temps instantly...the whole time you are waiting on the boil temp to be reached is the time you can spend sparging and extracting more sugary wort.

i usually heat up both the mash and sparge in the AIO then run it off to a kettle and keep it in the prewarmed oven. then after mash out i use a measuring cup to pour it over the grain in batches.

no sparge would mean less water heating and less equipment to mess with.

so it would save me some time and really effort in the long run,. and less steps so less things to mess up

im going to try it next brew thanks for all the replies everyone.

 

[odie]

not that familiar with AIO, there are different set ups, but looks basically BIAB principle. I do BIAB (using a big inside a basket. I mash with minimum volume and then sparge as the basket is over the kettle to meet target volume. I'm sparging to target volume at the same time I'm heating to boil. no extra equipment or steps.

 

[fluketamer]

bascially same thing odie. aio just means my heating element pump basket etc ALL IN ONE machine.

i love mine.

but after mash out i lift the tun and start to get it up to boil while its draining. it takes longer to drain if i am continuosly rinsing it with sparge water so that takes longer than if i just lift and then throw the grains out after they are done draining.
theres no way dropping the sparge wont save me some time.

if you are lookign to upgrade ever i highly reccomend an AIO. they are a lot of fun. and minimal parts.
it seems

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I did my first batch in a Grainfather G30 today, and the sparge definitely added some time. I'm used to Full Volume Mash in a Digiboil with a Wilser Bag. I lift the bag, let it drain while it's getting to a boil, and I just come back every now and then to see the temperature. It's very hands off, aside from the 10 seconds that I tend to squeeze the bag when it's closer to a boil.

The Grainfather took over an hour to sparge. Part of it may have been my grind - I've always used the tightest setting on a Cereal Killer, which works well with a Wilser Bag. Part of it might have been the amount of water (Grainfather app recommended 4 gallon mash and 4 gallon sparge, and the mash was like thick oatmeal). Either way, the kettle got near boiling - I think it may get to 206 or 208 degrees, then holds temperature until you tell it to boil - and it took a lot of waiting for the sparge to complete. And it was also very hands on, as I was going back too add water pretty often.

On the other hand, I do like how the grain basket can be placed on top of the kettle to drain. That's a little cleaner than hoisting my Wilser Bag with a pulled, and having it spill over the side of the kettle if I'm not careful.

 

[Bobby_M]

how does this save any time? Just mash with the standard volume. run it off to the kettle and immediately start the boiling process. At the same time you sparge the grain bed and add the running to the kettle as it's coming up to boil temps. once you reach your pre-boil starting volume you are done sparging and pretty close to boiling.

You are not going to go from mash temp to boil temps instantly...the whole time you are waiting on the boil temp to be reached is the time you can spend sparging and extracting more sugary wort.

You're correct that it isn't really a time save in the moment but it is more simple and I think the pros outweigh the cons.

 

[marc1]

i usually heat up both the mash and sparge in the AIO then run it off to a kettle and keep it in the prewarmed oven. then after mash out i use a measuring cup to pour it over the grain in batches.

no sparge would mean less water heating and less equipment to mess with.

so it would save me some time and really effort in the long run,. and less steps so less things to mess up

im going to try it next brew thanks for all the replies everyone.

Is there any way you can just move your drained mash to a pot or bucket for the sparge? Drop it in, give it a stir, then remove. You can then just dump your sparge runnings into your AIO. Seems like it would be less fiddly then dumping sparge water over your mash a cup at a time. The sparge water doesn't have to be hot.

 

[Halfakneecap]

So many different ways of achieving effectively the same thing. To new brewers ( i realise OP is not a new brewer ), brewing seems way more complicated now than in the days people ( including me ) mashed in a cooler with homemade copper pipe with slots hacksawed into it. It got the same result ( except maybe mash temp consistency ) then as 3V did for me, then 2V, then BIAB and now Robo.

Try the easiest thing first i say.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

On the other hand, I do like how the grain basket can be placed on top of the kettle to drain. That's a little cleaner than hoisting my Wilser Bag with a pulled, and having it spill over the side of the kettle if I'm not careful.

If you like the malt tube on the Grainfather, there is a malt tube upgrade package for the Digiboil that includes a false bottom, malt tube and removable handle, and a device that fits in the groove under the lid so you can let the tube sit there to drain. I have used it for several 5 gallon batches including a couple full volume mashes. Mine is a 1 gen. version, and 110 v, so I have not even tried to boil with it, but it’s great for heating water or doing the mash.
I believe I bought both the Digiboil and the malt tube upgrade from Williams Brewing when on sale. They are having a clearance sale right now, so you might get a good deal if it’s listed.

Digiboil mash upgrade

 

[hilljack13]

Part of it might have been the amount of water (Grainfather app recommended 4 gallon mash and 4 gallon sparge, and the mash was like thick oatmeal)

50/50 split? Seems odd. I use G40 so maybe that is why. For instance, my next batch I GF shows to use 7.24g mash and 1.84g sparge.

 

[Whisky River]

I did my first batch in a Grainfather G30 today, and the sparge definitely added some time. I'm used to Full Volume Mash in a Digiboil with a Wilser Bag. I lift the bag, let it drain while it's getting to a boil, and I just come back every now and then to see the temperature. It's very hands off, aside from the 10 seconds that I tend to squeeze the bag when it's closer to a boil.

The Grainfather took over an hour to sparge. Part of it may have been my grind - I've always used the tightest setting on a Cereal Killer, which works well with a Wilser Bag. Part of it might have been the amount of water (Grainfather app recommended 4 gallon mash and 4 gallon sparge, and the mash was like thick oatmeal). Either way, the kettle got near boiling - I think it may get to 206 or 208 degrees, then holds temperature until you tell it to boil - and it took a lot of waiting for the sparge to complete. And it was also very hands on, as I was going back too add water pretty often.

On the other hand, I do like how the grain basket can be placed on top of the kettle to drain. That's a little cleaner than hoisting my Wilser Bag with a pulled, and having it spill over the side of the kettle if I'm not careful.

That sounds like a combination of too fine a crush and a lot of Sparge water. On my G30 the Grainfather water calculator usually suggests something like 4.5-5G of strike water and around 2.5G of sparge water. After mashing I lift the basket, start heating for the boil and do the quick sparge. Usually the grains are done draining just a few minutes before the boil starts.