Freak of Science...a NEIPA turned clear...?

[Biscuits]

Okay HBT, I am completely perplexed. I have brewed dozens of NEIPAs before and every one, regardless of time spent in the keg have stayed hazy until the last pour, but last night...not quite Friday the 13th yet...something mysterious happened...

I brewed this as a New England IPA, added hops before fermentation completed which should produce biotransformation lending to the classic haziness of the style. However, after about a month in the keg, it has dropped CRYSTAL clear. Literally, the night before I poured it and it was murky as all get-out, the next day...clear. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of the science behind this? The only variables I can think that might have affected it are that I added frozen strawberries and shredded (unsweetened) coconut into secondary...maybe these contributed?

It still tastes fantastic, but just can't wrap my head around what happened.

Recipe: (2.75 gallons)

80% 2-Row
20% flaked oats

All hops in whirlpool / biotrans DH

London Ale III

2 lb. frozen strawberries
1lb. shredded unsweetened coconut.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm gonna take a swag at the oat percentage being high enough that the resulting protein content actually clarified the beer...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

2 lb. frozen strawberries
1lb. shredded unsweetened coconut.

As you mentioned yourself, perhaps these had something to do with it? ^
Oils in the coconut work like a super fining agent?

 

[Rob2010SS]

I'm gonna take a swag at the oat percentage being high enough that the resulting protein content actually clarified the beer...

Cheers!

I don't know about that. I did a 80% golden promise and 20% flaked oats and it came out like freaking orange juice! (See pic...)

As you mentioned yourself, perhaps these had something to do with it? ^
Oils in the coconut work like a super fining agent?

I could see this being the case. I've never used coconut so not sure though

 

[Biscuits]

Maybe I just missed the biotransformation window and i picked up a lot of sediment when transfering. This is plausible as I had to remove the bag containing all of the cocount right before sending it into the keg and maybe that same sediment from the coconut acted as a coagulant to settle out everything?

 

[bigdawg86]

Mine did that too... now it's just a pale ale in terms of appearance. Tasty tho!

 

[Gemadrken]

All of my beers drop clear after several weeks in the keg. I think what happens is that the beer cold crashes over time, and because our kegs are really served from the bottom all of the haze creating particles come out in the first half or so of the keg.

I hope this makes sense

 

[Biscuits]

All of my beers drop clear after several weeks in the keg. I think what happens is that the beer cold crashes over time, and because our kegs are really served from the bottom all of the haze creating particles come out in the first half or so of the keg.

I hope this makes sense

It makes sense, except I've got an NEIPA in the keg right now that has been there for probably 3 months and it still pours hazy...sure, it has brightened, but it is in no way clear.

 

[Gemadrken]

It makes sense, except I've got an NEIPA in the keg right now that has been there for probably 3 months and it still pours hazy...sure, it has brightened, but it is in no way clear.

I think what is happening inside of the keg is that the beer is separating into literally different layers.

I had a lot of trouble finding a picture of this, but I found an ok one here:

When the beer is clearing it sometimes forms layers inside the carboy, with the clearest layers typically being on the top. This happens faster when its in a cold keg. I'm guessing you got the super murky pour followed by the super clear pour because you were right on the line of clear/murky!

This is probably responsible for the clarity if you don't include hop oil haze in that. Im guessing some varieties of hop oils drop in the trub where others varieties stay in suspension and keep the beer hazy.

And as you were saying earlier the strawberries and coconut may very well have had molecules that could help break down the last haze forming molecules and drop completely clear.

Also how are the tasting notes on the added coconut and strawberry if you don't mind me asking? That sounds pretty bomb

 

[day_trippr]

I don't know about that. I did a 80% golden promise and 20% flaked oats and it came out like freaking orange juice![...]

So did the OP's - but after a month it has gone bright. How old was your beer in the picture?

Cheers!

 

[kevink]

All of my beers drop clear after several weeks in the keg. I think what happens is that the beer cold crashes over time, and because our kegs are really served from the bottom all of the haze creating particles come out in the first half or so of the keg.

I hope this makes sense

It makes sense. That's what happens. I see it happen all the time when I put extra beer in clear soda bottles (and purge with CO2 of course) and forget about them in my fridge. They turn clear from the top down (although not crystal clear... just less hazy).

 

[eager_brewer]

I'm from NE born and raised and that shitty style SUCKS!

 

[kevink]

I'm from NE born and raised and that poopyty style SUCKS!

Maybe you should move and try some good NE IPAs. The VT NE IPAs don't do much for me, either.

 

[Smellyglove]

All the haze are solids. They will drop out over time. Flip your keg before a sitting to redistribute.

 

[Rob2010SS]

So did the OP's - but after a month it has gone bright. How old was your beer in the picture?

Cheers!

First, by no means did i mean to come off argumentative if i did. So i apologize for that.

That first pic was day it was transferred to keg, so pretty fresh.

This pic is 3 weeks after being in the keg. My first one dropped clear and this was my 3rd neipa so i wanted a comparison pic

 

[jppsav]

I brewed a batch and added Mango to one fermenter. The mango version dropped very clear I one month. The standard version is still a little hazy one month after the first dropped clear.

 

[charger]

Just from my own experience, the haze appears to be more so a product of heavy whirlpool additions rather than dry hop additions. I also believe the bio transformation requirement is a little blown out of proportion although it likely helps distribute those nice hop oils.

I didn’t see your hop quantities and schedule but could have overlooked it.

For a 10 gallon batch, I used 1 pound total in the whirlpool at 2 different temps (180 and 150) and 1 pound total in dry hop (during high Krausen and 4 days), with total fermentation time around 12-14 days. The haze jumped out immediately with the first 8 ounce hop addition in whirlpool with recirculation.

This recipe results in an excessive hop bite for the first couple weeks but fades nicely into a smoother well rounded NEIPA. I’ve read this initial bite can be remedied with a fining agent, gelatin, etc. to drop the excessive hop debris but leave the oils, basically an attempt to speed the first couple weeks of aging. Supposedly the haze remains if it’s the product of hops additions and not yeast, etc. haven’t tried that yet, but may on my next batch.

 

[Biscuits]

I think what is happening inside of the keg is that the beer is separating into literally different layers.

I had a lot of trouble finding a picture of this, but I found an ok one here:

When the beer is clearing it sometimes forms layers inside the carboy, with the clearest layers typically being on the top. This happens faster when its in a cold keg. I'm guessing you got the super murky pour followed by the super clear pour because you were right on the line of clear/murky!

This is probably responsible for the clarity if you don't include hop oil haze in that. Im guessing some varieties of hop oils drop in the trub where others varieties stay in suspension and keep the beer hazy.

And as you were saying earlier the strawberries and coconut may very well have had molecules that could help break down the last haze forming molecules and drop completely clear.

Also how are the tasting notes on the added coconut and strawberry if you don't mind me asking? That sounds pretty bomb

Yeah, I am totally familiar with this and I know beers, even the haziest NEIPA will brighten over time, I am okay with that. IT was just shocking to me that it went from hazy to brilliantly clear...I think anyone would have been takenaback. I have been thinking a lot about this over the weekend and I am fairly confident that the dramatic clearing has something to do with the fat oils from the coconut...this is just my hypothesis though. I may have to brew another batch and try it without the coconut to see.

The taste, although subjective, was good...it took about 10 days before it came into itself and once it did it was crushable. Granted, I received lots of praise from a growler I brought to a party...I didn't even tell anyone it was homebrew because I wanted to see if it would get any attention without the social pressure and several people asked what it was and where to get it from, so I consider that a good sign. However, I will add, to me and a few of my beer geek friends who tried it, the coconut didn't really come through...I either need to add more next time or maybe toasting it would help...probably both.

Just from my own experience, the haze appears to be more so a product of heavy whirlpool additions rather than dry hop additions. I also believe the bio transformation requirement is a little blown out of proportion although it likely helps distribute those nice hop oils.

I didn’t see your hop quantities and schedule but could have overlooked it.

For a 10 gallon batch, I used 1 pound total in the whirlpool at 2 different temps (180 and 150) and 1 pound total in dry hop (during high Krausen and 4 days), with total fermentation time around 12-14 days. The haze jumped out immediately with the first 8 ounce hop addition in whirlpool with recirculation.

This recipe results in an excessive hop bite for the first couple weeks but fades nicely into a smoother well rounded NEIPA. I’ve read this initial bite can be remedied with a fining agent, gelatin, etc. to drop the excessive hop debris but leave the oils, basically an attempt to speed the first couple weeks of aging. Supposedly the haze remains if it’s the product of hops additions and not yeast, etc. haven’t tried that yet, but may on my next batch.

See, I have the opposite experience...I have added heavy whirlpool additions at a variety of temps and while they do tend to have a slight haze...it is nothing like what I get from biotrans. We've even brewed beers that we make consistantly clear and added bitrans hops which made them hazy until the last pour....this difference in experience could be contributed to differences in process though, so I am not saying one method is better than the other. Like I stated above, I am putting my money on the fatty oils from the raw coconut as the culprit in the clearing.

 

[bleme]

I'm from NE born and raised and that poopyty style SUCKS!

Only a troll would go into a thread that is clearly labeled "neipa" and complain about NEIPA's, like anyone cares what you like or don't like.

 

[sbsmann]

Would there be anything wrong with giving the keg a little shake to stir it back up to get the haziness back into play? The hazy, thick mouth feel of a NEIPA is part of that style and may be quite desirable.

 

[Biscuits]

Would there be anything wrong with giving the keg a little shake to stir it back up to get the haziness back into play? The hazy, thick mouth feel of a NEIPA is part of that style and may be quite desirable.

Kind of too late for that, haha. I filled a couple of bottles for a competition and then a growler for a party which kicked the keg. The recipe included half a pound of lactose...so even without the haze, the taste was still creamy.

 

[ryanj]

I've only brewed a few intentionally hazy beers, but if I don't finish the keg within a month, they completely clear out.

This goes for every batch of beer really. I'll admin it takes me about 2-3 months to finish a keg, and regardless of technique or ingredients...every batch finishes crystal clear by the last pint.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I've only brewed a few intentionally hazy beers, but if I don't finish the keg within a month, they completely clear out.

This goes for every batch of beer really. I'll admin it takes me about 2-3 months to finish a keg, and regardless of technique or ingredients...every batch finishes crystal clear by the last pint.

I have that problem to, I thought I did something wrong in this style. Regardless, I can still find clay mug to drink of so the clarity doesn't bother me. LOL

 

[sjfischr]

This happens to me a lot.
Every. Freaking. Time.

But—I am trying new techniques and watching this thread, and promise to report back.

<<FACT: you open a can of month-old commercial NEIPA and it’s still hazy>>

So there’s reasons why certain homebrewed NEIPAs seem to clear out faster.

Just brewed another NEIPA ten days ago and kegging tomorrow. I just tried to really focus on:
1) Water chemistry—after really focus on brewing salts, something seemed different in the carboy this time. It has been murky throughout compared with just hazy. Will publish
2) Whirlpool additions to achieve haze. I have stopped numerous times to agitate the hops—this created a beautifully opaque murkiness!

My 0.02—getting the beer opaque early makes it harder for it to clarify later.

 

[Andre3000]

I'm a little late to the party here but this is not some freak accident. Scott Janish has put a lot of time into researching what makes them hazy and what doesn't. At the end, he proves it by brewing a "clear" NEIPA:

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

Basically it comes down to protein and polyphenols. You've taken some protein out by adding flaked oaks. Also, what effect did the frozen strawberries/coconut have? I've also started adding malted wheat (high protein) to compensate for the lack of protein in flaked adjuncts, which speaks to the article above. I've had one in the keg for 6 weeks and it's still very very hazy.

My recipe is based on Braufessor's Hoppy Session Wheat: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/hoppy-session-wheat-beer.644047/

Give that a whirl and let me know if it clears .

 

[Staylow]

Ive brewed many NEIPA's over the past couple years. I'm trying to narrow down what exactly is causing the haze. Right now, my best practices are:

Keeping the calcium low. I'm using potassium chloride to get my chloride content where i want it, and keeping the sulfate pretty low. Right now I've been targeting 40:160 sulfate:chloride. High calcium aids in clearing beer.

Big whirlpool and biotrans hop additon on day 2 or 3, depending on yeast. I'm typically targeting when the krausen is high or just starts to drop.

No whirlfloc or irish moss. This is the next variable I want to isolate, as I'll be adding whirlfloc to my next attempt.

I have one on tap right now that follows all of that and is every bit as hazy now, 6 or 7 weeks after kegging as it was when i tapped it. It is however, starting to lose its flavor and aroma. Should be kicking any time now.

 

[Staylow]

Forgot to mention - I also ditched all the flaked adjuncts. I typically split my base malt between 2 row and Maris Otter, then add 10-20% carafoam. No other specialty malts. This one on tap right now was a little different though, as it was 2 row, 5% victory, and 10ish % malted wheat. Victory had about zero impact, from what I can tell.

 

[ESBrewer]

All the haze are solids. They will drop out over time. Flip your keg before a sitting to redistribute.

I think so, too. But the exact nature of the solids will decide when exactly they will reach the bottom of the keg. So the exact recipe and process may play role here by altering the composition and properties of the haze.

About the layers somebody mentioned. If you think about the process of sedimentation, it is obvious that a bright layer may appear on top of the beer. There are usually particles with varying sedimentation rates and when the fast dropping particles go downwards, they move to a lower position so that it remains hazy, but the top will be clear.

 

[sjfischr]

This happens to me a lot.
Every. Freaking. Time.

But—I am trying new techniques and watching this thread, and promise to report back.

<<FACT: you open a can of month-old commercial NEIPA and it’s still hazy>>

So there’s reasons why certain homebrewed NEIPAs seem to clear out faster.

Just brewed another NEIPA ten days ago and kegging tomorrow. I just tried to really focus on:
1) Water chemistry—after really focus on brewing salts, something seemed different in the carboy this time. It has been murky throughout compared with just hazy. Will publish
2) Whirlpool additions to achieve haze. I have stopped numerous times to agitate the hops—this created a beautifully opaque murkiness!

My 0.02—getting the beer opaque early makes it harder for it to clarify later.

Updating my post from last night-after a 24h cold crash and racking to keg, voila:

Obviously the first pint is opaque...but let me point out:
1) the added MgSO4 must have helped the yeast a lot—it dropped out so the first pint was without that burn. No other factors were changed in the recipe.
2) the whirlpool additions are indeed more flavorful. Sticky/resinous yet light on the palate when tasting. No “chalky” flavors as I’ve heard that critique of the style.

 

[GRBC]

Updating my post from last night-after a 24h cold crash and racking to keg, voila:

View attachment 581414

Obviously the first pint is opaque...but let me point out:
1) the added MgSO4 must have helped the yeast a lot—it dropped out so the first pint was without that burn. No other factors were changed in the recipe.
2) the whirlpool additions are indeed more flavorful. Sticky/resinous yet light on the palate when tasting. No “chalky” flavors as I’ve heard that critique of the style.

Beer is the answer!

 

[Biscuits]

My current NEIPA will be sent to the keg tomorrow evening after a 48 hour cold crash. I will post what it looks like.

 

[yourlastchance89]

I accidentally discovered a while back that by accidentally sending overdoing gelatin it would permahaze my beers. This was also specifically brought up by a listener on the Brulosophy Podcast as well. If you don't want your beer to clear, try adding alot of gelatin to it.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

All of my beers drop clear after several weeks in the keg. I think what happens is that the beer cold crashes over time, and because our kegs are really served from the bottom all of the haze creating particles come out in the first half or so of the keg.

I hope this makes sense

Actually, chill haze is what keeps a NE IPA nice and hazy. If anything the haze will diminish once the beer warms. Make sense?

 

[Biscuits]

Sent to the keg tonight...

 

[Andre3000]

This is five weeks in the keg. Haze is not going anywhere; visually, it's opaque like mango juice. Like I mentioned above, a good portion of high protein malt (white wheat) to bind with the high level of polyphenols, I believe, is what does it for me. I encourage everyone to read the Scott Janish article for more info!:

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/