Flip cap failure...

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Joe 😎

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Hello brew peeps. I need some advice after 3 batches of mostly flat beer pouring out from my bottles I'm thinking that my flip top bottles are failing. Should I scrap the flip top and buy standard bottles with crimp tops?
Or is kegging my solution?
I hate flat beer.
🍺
 
Where did you get the bottles? If they're old, have you tried replacing the seals?

When I bottle condition, whether flip-top, crimp cap, or cork and cage, I always fill a couple of small PET bottles as an easy test of carbonation. Squeeze all of the air out before you cap them. The CO2 generated during carbonation will restore the shape of the bottle and make it rock hard. That won't fix the seals on the rest of your bottles, but it will rule out (or in) a different kind of failure.
 
Where did you get the bottles? If they're old, have you tried replacing the seals?

When I bottle condition, whether flip-top, crimp cap, or cork and cage, I always fill a couple of small PET bottles as an easy test of carbonation. Squeeze all of the air out before you cap them. The CO2 generated during carbonation will restore the shape of the bottle and make it rock hard. That won't fix the seals on the rest of your bottles, but it will rule out (or in) a different kind of failure.
The bottles are a few months old.
I bought some on Amazon and some from a brew supplier in Brooklyn. About 10 to 15 bottles out of 36 are good. I even filled my bottles in 3 stages to get an even mix from my bottling bucket. I filled all bottles 1/3 at a time, so i mixed the bottom, middle and top of my batch....
I really thought this would solve the uneven mix theory from my bucket.
 
A few years ago my wife brewed a one gallon imperial coffee stout, the one and only time she's brewed. We filled up a few flip top bottles and only a couple of those carbed up. Too bad, it was a great beer. I did a couple things that seemed to fix them for the next brew day. I bent the metal hinges (sorry, I don't know what they're called), so they grab the bottle a little tighter. And also took some keg lube and rubbed it on the seals. Next batch carbed fine.
 
A few years ago my wife brewed a one gallon imperial coffee stout, the one and only time she's brewed. We filled up a few flip top bottles and only a couple of those carbed up. Too bad, it was a great beer. I did a couple things that seemed to fix them for the next brew day. I bent the metal hinges (sorry, I don't know what they're called), so they grab the bottle a little tighter. And also took some keg lube and rubbed it on the seals. Next batch carbed fine.
Good idea, thanks for the reply.
 
how long are you conditioning your beer.

i find three weeks at room temp gets them nice and carbed.

bottle priming instead of batch priming will rule out uneven mixing as the cause

and yes kegging is alway$ an option
 
I bent the metal hinges (sorry, I don't know what they're called), so they grab the bottle a little tighter. And also took some keg lube and rubbed it on the seals. Next batch carbed fine.
The word you are looking for is "Bails". The keg lube seems like a good idea from a mechanical seal perspective.
Rubber seals frequently like a bit of lube to help squeeze into the irregularities.
 
The bottles are a few months old.
I bought some on Amazon and some from a brew supplier in Brooklyn. About 10 to 15 bottles out of 36 are good.
Were the flip top lids engaged (closed) or dangling on the side (open) when you bought them?

If left closed for several weeks, months, or longer, the gaskets may have gotten a (semi-) permanent indentation in them, not sealing well enough, until they had time to restore their thickness somewhat.

I always flip the seals over when recapping. And replace them when I start doubting their performance, such as a deep, permanent indentation.
Also, the modern day seals are more plastic-y and much stiffer than the original rubber-y ones from back in the days that lasted almost forever until dry rot got them.
 
the swing tops are exponentially easier then capping . i just bought some for the first time. and i see the appeal
They look vintage and inspire imagery of drinking early 19th century ale, especially with the 22oz size. I tried them briefly but quickly adopted crown cap 12oz for ease of bottling and reliability.
 
I use flip-tops a ton and I never really had a problem. If you can send pictures with a close-up view of the cap and gasket, maybe we can help figure out what's going on. I re-use bottles from Grosch and Flensberger, these work great. Maybe store-bought bottles have a problem, I don't know.
 
the swing tops in dollar stores and craft stores are more for dceoration and flavoring oils and vinegars etc IMO. the tops are especially junky on those.

i had alot of them fail and stopped using them. especially the ones with silicon washers.
1708606247700.png

i have never had luck pressurizing these.

more form then function .

the ones at the hbs i imagine are better quality for beer. the ones i got are ld carlsen and very high quality. thick glass. quality tops.

the ones in the brooklyn hbs i know are also good. not sure if carlsen but i think so. they might be from more beer. also not sure.

the ones on amazon may be more like the craft/ dollar stoe ones idk i havent got bottles from amazon.


the small flensberger are my favorite size cause they pour perfectly into a pint glass in one pour. and flensberger tastes so much better than grolsch.
 
Are you using “O” shaped or circle shaped seals? I’ve only ever used flip-tops when bottling (had several cases before I even started homebrewing) and every once in a while I would get a bad seal. I replaced the existing washers with a full cap like the ones here:
https://a.co/d/ejmwUfh
I notice much fewer bad seals when I bottle. Not completely eliminated; when I get a bottle with no carbing, I set that one aside and don’t use it anymore. If I ever get to the point where I’m running out of good bottles, I’ll try to fix them like @BongoYodeler mentioned.
 
I use Grolsch swing tops for taking to parties and such. I've never, ever had a problem with them not sealing. Nice thick glass too.

I suspect store bought, non-beer bottles might have a lesser quality gasket?

I always store with the tops open, so the gasket can "un-crush" or whatever to relax.

It's possible you did not have the cap straight when you closed the bail?
 
Exponentially easier? Really? Everyone has their preference, but crimp on caps are as easy as it gets.

yes having the cap attached to the bottle and not fishing for it is a lot easier.

not dealing with a bottle capper is easier

i have never used a bench capper and am willing to concede that its definately less trouble than the traditional double wing capper. but still seems more work then closing a flip top .

obviosuly swing tops are not cost effective but thats another issue
 
yes having the cap attached to the bottle and not fishing for it is a lot easier.

not dealing with a bottle capper is easier

i have never used a bench capper and am willing to concede that its definately less trouble than the traditional double wing capper. but still seems more work then closing a flip top .

obviosuly swing tops are not cost effective but thats another issue
I'm just hung up on the term easier because it implies a level of difficulty. It's not difficult to crimp a cap, it just involves a few additional steps and take a few seconds longer. Both capping methods are perfectly acceptable and just a matter of preference. I prefer crimp on caps because when I started brewing beer, I was able replicate a commercial bottle of beer which I thought was very cool. Also, I enjoy popping off the cap before I drink my beer. :mug:
 
Were the flip top lids engaged (closed) or dangling on the side (open) when you bought them?

If left closed for several weeks, months, or longer, the gaskets may have gotten a (semi-) permanent indentation in them, not sealing well enough, until they had time to restore their thickness somewhat.

I always flip the seals over when recapping. And replace them when I start doubting their performance, such as a deep, permanent indentation.
Also, the modern day seals are more plastic-y and much stiffer than the original rubber-y ones from back in the days that lasted almost forever until dry rot got them.

The caps were not closed when i got them. I think it will be best to switch to crimp caps for my next batch..
I'm tired of flat beer. I'm confident that I'm doing everything else right.
 
I'm tired of flat beer. I'm confident that I'm doing everything else right.
Well, if this
bout 10 to 15 bottles out of 36 are good.
means that about a third of the bottles in the last batch you packaged were carbonated the way you wanted them to be, then it means that you're doing at least some things right. Did you keep track of which bottles worked from one batch to the next? Because unless you really know that these 15 bottles work every time and those 20 bottles never work, then it could still be something else that you're doing. If you do know that you have 15 good bottles and 20 bad bottles, then it should be possible to figure out what's wrong with the bad ones.
I even filled my bottles in 3 stages to get an even mix from my bottling bucket. I filled all bottles 1/3 at a time, so i mixed the bottom, middle and top of my batch....
This seems like a rather tedious and inefficient way of dealing with mixing. If you're doing an open transfer to a bottling bucket anyway, then just stir the priming sugar into the beer well.
 
The newer stiffer mateial for the gaskets could be the issue as mentioned. Try boiling to sanitize, they may be a little more pliable. The new ones are stiff enough to resist conforming to the cap. Or look for the more rubbery gaskets. The stiff ones are more salmon colored and the rubbery ones more pink (less red).

If these were bottles having been used multiple times I would suggest making sure to take the gaskets off before cleaning and sanitizing. Buildup can occur under the gasket. I take off the gaskets when cleaning and leave them off but with the cap closed when storing. That way the cap gets sanitized completely and I put the sanitized gasket back on. This is also why I typically boil the gaskets as they can be a little hard to get back on. I never take the bails off as I find this generally loosens them up and they are prone to come loose.

The idea to split the batch to include some flip-tops and crimp caps is a good one to determine if something is not going right with the priming. There may something wrong there. Amount of time, brewing calculator off perhaps, a scale not reading correctly etc.
 
yes having the cap attached to the bottle and not fishing for it is a lot easier.

not dealing with a bottle capper is easier

i have never used a bench capper and am willing to concede that its definately less trouble than the traditional double wing capper. but still seems more work then closing a flip top .

obviosuly swing tops are not cost effective but thats another issue
Yes, bench capper made my life easier. Major upgrade to our packaging line once my father-in-law joined the operation.

1708631856268.jpeg
1708631950097.jpeg
 
Are your tops plastic or ceramic? I had a case of plastic tops and about a third to half wouldn't carb despite having brand new rubber seals. I noticed in the manufacturing the plastic tops had a very slight seam going down as a radius and I suspected they were letting out air. I switched to ceramic tops (no seam) and never had a problem after that.
 
Are your tops plastic or ceramic? I had a case of plastic tops and about a third to half wouldn't carb despite having brand new rubber seals. I noticed in the manufacturing the plastic tops had a very slight seam going down as a radius and I suspected they were letting out air. I switched to ceramic tops (no seam) and never had a problem after that.
Interesting. That's something else to consider.
 
the swing tops in dollar stores and craft stores are more for dceoration and flavoring oils and vinegars etc IMO. the tops are especially junky on those.

i had alot of them fail and stopped using them. especially the ones with silicon washers.
View attachment 842414
i have never had luck pressurizing these.

more form then function .

the ones at the hbs i imagine are better quality for beer. the ones i got are ld carlsen and very high quality. thick glass. quality tops.

the ones in the brooklyn hbs i know are also good. not sure if carlsen but i think so. they might be from more beer. also not sure.

the ones on amazon may be more like the craft/ dollar stoe ones idk i havent got bottles from amazon.


the small flensberger are my favorite size cause they pour perfectly into a pint glass in one pour. and flensberger tastes so much better than grolsch.
i wouldn't trust these under pressure at all.
 
I'm just hung up on the term easier because it implies a level of difficulty. It's not difficult to crimp a cap, it just involves a few additional steps and take a few seconds longer. Both capping methods are perfectly acceptable and just a matter of preference. I prefer crimp on caps because when I started brewing beer, I was able replicate a commercial bottle of beer which I thought was very cool. Also, I enjoy popping off the cap before I drink my beer. :mug:
Oddly enough, all 100+ of my swing top bottles came from commercial beer. Very good commercial beer at that (Schwaben Brau). I do miss that brand…

I tried using crimp-on caps once, but didn’t care for it—smaller bottles (355 vs 500ml) means I had to fill more bottles for the same batch size (I switched to kegs because I hate bottling), I don’t trust my luck/coordination with a wing capper (while I’m pushing down on the levers, I’m not holding the bottle), and I prefer not having to buy caps for the few times I decide to counter-pressure fill a bottle from the keg (one more item to keep in inventory, lest I finish a brew and can’t bottle it for lack of caps; not a problem for most, but definitely something I would forget to check).

I always pull my gaskets off when rinsing/cleaning the bottles, then reattach them during sanitizing. I use silicon gaskets, so I don’t have a problem with too-stiff gaskets. I’ve heard silicon can be oxygen permeable, but that hasn’t been an issue for me—I haven’t yet made any oxygen-sensitive beers and most of my brews don’t last very long.
 
I will add that swing tops are "easier" than the two lever hand capper, which is cumbersome at best. I have had some long bottling days of 140+ gallons. Using an old bench top capper i think from the 40-50s, fully adjustable from 12oz to the 22oz bombers. best piece of equipment my dad pulled out of a junk pile for capping bottles.

i did have one sam adams bomber break and explode in my hand, luckily no cuts; but those bottles were very very massed produced and were poor visually looking at the seams and bottle profile.

saving bottles and removing labels is painstaking, so is washing homebrew bottled beer. I still am certain that the old glass produced from Mexico was of higher standard than what i see today.

any way get a bench capper and swing tops will be nostalgia. now days i use swing tops for growler purposes from kegs.
 
I've tried various brands of swing cap bottles. EZ Cap is by far the best brand. The bales are stronger than other brands so they seal nice and tight. But the main reason I'm writing is that I found a video which shows how to adjust the bales so they seal more tightly. You'll find the technique 3 mins into the video. This has really helped with some of the lesser quality swing caps I've purchased: How to tighten swing cap bottles
 
I've seen those too.
I guess you could file or sand those seams down, making the stopper smooth.
I have seen the seams too. It's the leading theory for me. I haven't tried using Grolsch swing-tops on the brown bottles bought online. It's something to try if they fit.

There is also the gasket material. A lot you can buy are silicone, which seems a harder material. Grolsch bottles are harder to close with this type of gasket. My local home brew store had gaskets more like Grolsch's, a lot softer and more compliant.

When I changed the gasket on the brown bottles, some still lost carbonation. None of the Grolsch bottle leaked when I changed to the gaskets.
 
There is also the gasket material. A lot you can buy are silicone, which seems a harder material. Grolsch bottles are harder to close with this type of gasket. My local home brew store had gaskets more like Grolsch's, a lot softer and more compliant.
I’ve used replacement rubber and silicone gaskets, but the rubber ones were much less pliant than the silicone. I used the ones made by Otis for both types.
 
I’ve used replacement rubber and silicone gaskets, but the rubber ones were much less pliant than the silicone. I used the ones made by Otis for both types.
I see, pliant is a better word. But my experience is different. I found the rubber - or whatever the Grolsch gasket material is - to be more conforming than silicone gaskets.
 
I see, pliant is a better word. But my experience is different. I found the rubber - or whatever the Grolsch gasket material is - to be more conforming than silicone gaskets.
I’ve never used Grolsch brand bottles. When I swapped my generic swing top bottles’ rubber gaskets for silicone, it was an improvement. Maybe Grolsch gaskets are even better yet?
 
Well, if this

means that about a third of the bottles in the last batch you packaged were carbonated the way you wanted them to be, then it means that you're doing at least some things right. Did you keep track of which bottles worked from one batch to the next? Because unless you really know that these 15 bottles work every time and those 20 bottles never work, then it could still be something else that you're doing. If you do know that you have 15 good bottles and 20 bad bottles, then it should be possible to figure out what's wrong with the bad ones.

This seems like a rather tedious and inefficient way of dealing with mixing. If you're doing an open transfer to a bottling bucket anyway, then just stir the priming sugar into the beer well.
Thanks for the reply. It's an IPA, so I stirred it in lightly. After opening a few more last, I'm convinced that the bottles I got from Amazon are leaking. My Grolsch bottles and the 12 oz bottles frome the brew supply are good.
 
Thanks for the reply. It's an IPA, so I stirred it in lightly. After opening a few more last, I'm convinced that the bottles I got from Amazon are leaking. My Grolsch bottles and the 12 oz bottles frome the brew supply are good.
Screenshot_20240224_170008_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
I think there's a trick to getting a reliable seal with swing tops: seat the cap by hand and compress the gasket with your thumb, then toggle the bail.

The fit between the stopper and the mouth of the bottle is a spherical joint, but the bail applies force along a line. If that line ends up nearly perfectly bisecting the circle that is the mouth, the bottle will steal very nicely with even a fairly weak preload on the bail/stopper assembly. If not, it's a roll of the dice. Because the bail swings in from one side, the stopper automatically wants to push off center. Prevent this by seating the stopper hard with your thumb. Feel the stopper settle into its lowest position and load the gasket concentrically. Then swing the bail over (very little force will be required). 100% good results unless something is worn out and needs adjustment or replacement.

Extra credit: before sealing, hold the stopper down with your thumb and give the bottle a shake to liberate a little dissolved Co2, then release the stopper to vent the headspace. Bottle condition, do this twice, then seal as above for months (years?) of oxidation-free storage.

EZ Cap bottles are wonderful. Elegant, low-tech, low hassle. Worth every penny.
 

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