Flanders Red w/Philly Sour

[Snuffy]

So I'm planning to brew something similar to a Flanders Red using the grain bill and hops from NB's Heiress de Bourgogne recipe. I'm not sure if it will come out red or brown, but we'll see. Anyway, I don't kettle sour because I'm brewing in a laundry room and not exactly set up to take 4 days to complete a brew session. Instead, I'm going to try Philly Sour yeast for the souring part and then hit it with a Belgian yeast for the finish. I've watched all the Philly Sour videos and tips. Suggestions from Lallemand are to mash low, pitch warm, ferment in the 70s, do not co-pitch, give it about 5 days to sour before adding another yeast.

I think it will run something like this:

• Mash a bit low at 149 for 60 mins. Sparge same temp. Boil for 60 min and hop per instructions.
• Pitch 2 packs of Philly Sour kind of warm - 80 F or so - and then let it run for 5 days at around 73 F - which is my normal brew cellar temp.
• Once the initial souring phase wanes and the production of alcohol is due to begin, I will pitch a pack of Cellar Science Monk to finish up and hopefully impart something Belgian to the flavor profile.
• I think I will bottle this in liter cap tops with fizz drops. I think it does better bottle conditioned than kegged. May bottle half and baby keg half.

Have any of you guys ever brewed anything in a similar process with Philly Sour? I know I could let PS handle the entire fermentation, but I want some Belgian characteristics if I can get them. Hoping there's enough gravity left to crank up a second pitch. Any thoughts on extending mash times or anything? Mashing low is supposed to increase the souring effect due to more glucose or something. Should I mash out like normal at 167 for 10 mins or skip that? Any input would be appreciated.

 

[Bobby_M]

Let me know how it goes. Based on the two times I tried Philly, it's really just a replacement for kettle souring for the lactic acid tartness. A flanders needs more complexity including acetic acid. You will likely end up with something more like a Belgian Dubbel with lactic tartness.

 

[Snuffy]

Let me know how it goes. Based on the two times I tried Philly, it's really just a replacement for kettle souring for the lactic acid tartness. A flanders needs more complexity including acetic acid. You will likely end up with something more like a Belgian Dubbel with lactic tartness.

That would be good. If I can just get that sour, tart thing on the front end and the rest is a dubbel, I will be satisfied. I was souring with the fast method and tossing in lacto capsules but I can never get the hops right hopping after the fact so it turns out kind of one dimensional. That's usually what I get for shortcutting. Even that is still pretty good. I guess my only head scratcher now is should I mash out or not. I'm thinking not since the Philly seems to like wort a little under done. Not sure if it would hurt or help. I will post a follow up when I can. I don't see myself sipping on this in a hurry. Thanks.

 

[Snuffy]

Nice Belgian beer site:

https://www.belgiansmaak.com/belgian-beers/

 

[Snuffy]

Let me know how it goes. Based on the two times I tried Philly, it's really just a replacement for kettle souring for the lactic acid tartness. A flanders needs more complexity including acetic acid. You will likely end up with something more like a Belgian Dubbel with lactic tartness.

Well... it went exactly as you predicted. It's a lovely beer. Red-brown with lots of lace and smells great. Sour flavor is quite pronounced and is one-dimensional with no vinegar or sweetish notes at all. Sorta like the pith of a grapefruit. But I will soldier on and drink it anyway eventually. And I may brew that recipe again as a Belgian red-brown ale w/o souring it.

 

[AlexKay]

FWIW, I tried co-pitching Philly Sour with Lallemand Abbaye, and while Lallemand's notes suggested this already: holy cow, PS just cannot compete with S. Cerevisiae. There was no detectable sourness in the finished beer whatsoever.

 

[hungupdown]

Well... it went exactly as you predicted. It's a lovely beer. Red-brown with lots of lace and smells great. Sour flavor is quite pronounced and is one-dimensional with no vinegar or sweetish notes at all. Sorta like the pith of a grapefruit. But I will soldier on and drink it anyway eventually. And I may brew that recipe again as a Belgian red-brown ale w/o souring it.

I did a blackcurrant sour, using Philly-sour this summer.

Mash 149, pitched 1 pack in 20L, ferment warm.
Lallemand graphs, show acid is mostly produced over first 2 or 3 days (followed by mostly ethanol production). Mine reached lowest pH by start of day three.

I planned to use Lactose @ 5% for body. But beer, though a lovely colour, still seemed too sour to drink, so ended up with Lactose @ 10%. Drinkable, but not a great success.
Blackcurrants are fairly tart to start with, so 1kg in the 20L was maybe too much. But using a higher % blackcurrants, in blackcurrant wine, has never produced acidic wine.

If using Philly Sour again, I'd maybe co-pitch 2nd yeast after 48hr, rather than wait till day 5 suggested. Though that could be a slightly hit and miss way, of achieving less acidity.
Perhaps splitting batch, 1/3rd Philly, 2/3rds other, would be more reliable.

 

[Rish]

one-dimensional

I did a gose with Philly Sour and had the same result. I added some apple cider vinegar and lactic acid and liked the result. You might try adding a little bit to a glass and see how it does.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

Flanders Red, Oud Bruin, Lambics and other traditional sours typically take 12-18 months before bottling and then another couple months of carbonating and conditioning.

It's the combination of lacto, pedio, brett and sacc over a lengthy period of time that make the nuance of those beers.

The fermentation characteristics of Lachancea yeast just dont match those styles.

Interestingly they list "American Lambic" as a style that can be brewed with it. Must be a new style or a marketing term to promote this yeast as the bjcp doesn't list that style.

What exactly is an "American Lambic"?

 

[worlddivides]

What exactly is an "American Lambic"?

It's essentially just a lambic but made in the US. "Lambic" is a term like "champagne" that is region-specific. It's not a lambic unless it's made in the Pajottenland region of Belgium. You sometimes get American breweries that work together with Belgian lambic breweries to make these "American Lambics." They usually are made in the same way that lambics in Belgium are made, but they're just made in the US. You'll also often see ones aged in foeders. I've been a fan for quite some time now.

Philly sour, however, would not be capable of making an American lambic since Philly Sour only produces lactic acid, and you would need acetic acid from the pediococcus and also the character from Brett to make a lambic. And if you were going to mix other cultures, you wouldn't want to mix Philly sour because it'd be outcompeted for one thing.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

Philly sour, however, would not be capable of making an American lambic since Philly Sour only produces lactic acid

WildBrew Philly Sour™ is an ideal yeast for traditional styles such as Berliner Weiss, Gose, American Lambic Style, American Wild Ales and its resistance to hops make it perfect for Sour IPA’s.

Apparently Lallemand believes Philly Sour capable of participating in this American Lambic style. I just think this type of marketing is either ignorant or deceptive.

 

[worlddivides]

Apparently Lallemand believes Philly Sour capable of participating in this American Lambic style. I just think this type of marketing is either ignorant or deceptive.

I agree that it's just marketing and deceptive at that. While sure, you could probably use Philly Sour for making American Lambics, it's not ideal for the style, because to use it, you'd need to pitch Philly Sour on its own before pitching anything else and allow it to just create lactic acid for a few days, then before it started fermenting much of the ethanol, you'd pitch a regular Saccharomyces yeast strain, which would overpower the Philly Sour, then once the gravity got low, you might pitch pediococcus and Brett (maybe in a sour blend, though that would also include lactobacillus, which would make you wonder why you even needed the Philly Sour).

I do think Philly Sour is a great alternative to kettle-souring and allows you to make Berliner Weisses, goses, and sour IPAs without any risk of contaminating your equipment. I do not think Philly Sour really works for American lambics or wild ales, though. Both of those styles require microorganisms that would contaminate your equipment, so it's just deceptive marketing, really.

 

[Snuffy]

If using Philly Sour again, I'd maybe co-pitch 2nd yeast after 48hr, rather than wait till day 5 suggested. Though that could be a slightly hit and miss way, of achieving less acidity.
Perhaps splitting batch, 1/3rd Philly, 2/3rds other, would be more reliable.

I let the Philly run for 5 days. It was a couple of days getting started. Then I added BE-256 at about 1.028 to finish up at 1.006. No real Belgian character I can taste. It's drinkable but dry and you gotta keep it near room temp for any flavor other than sour/bitter.

 

[Snuffy]

I did a gose with Philly Sour and had the same result. I added some apple cider vinegar and lactic acid and liked the result. You might try adding a little bit to a glass and see how it does.

I may try that. Not a lot to lose here.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I find PS more tart than sour. Especially compared to the sour cultures ive tried before. Though I kind of like it for summer. I have a packet in the fridge.

I had terrible head retention with mine. Might add wheat next time.

 

[Snuffy]

I find PS more tart than sour. Especially compared to the sour cultures ive tried before. Though I kind of like it for summer. I have a packet in the fridge.
I had terrible head retention with mine. Might add wheat next time.

I may attempt this again using the Wyeast Roselare blend and just bottle it after 3 or 4 months on the cake and then forget about it for a year. Failing at my first shortcut attempt is too annoying to walk away from.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

I may attempt this again using the Wyeast Roselare blend and just bottle it after 3 or 4 months on the cake and then forget about it for a year. Failing at my first shortcut attempt is too annoying to walk away from.

That will most likely not sour as expected, maybe the Wyeast Lambic blend would but probably not first gen Roeselare. Pitching on the cake of Gen 2 or 3 Roeselare (or Lambic) would most likely be your best bet or maybe some cultures from ECY (East Coast Yeast).

You might try what Russian River does and ferment with a Sacc down to 1.012-1.014, pitch a Brett culture for 1-2 months, then pitch your bugs (Wyeast Roeselare/Lambic or pure Lacto/Pedio cultures or ECY, etc...).

If you do this be sure to use heavy bottles to avoid bottle bombs especially since you'll most likely be bottling at a higher SG, 1.006 - 1.012.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I may attempt this again using the Wyeast Roselare blend and just bottle it after 3 or 4 months on the cake and then forget about it for a year. Failing at my first shortcut attempt is too annoying to walk away from.

Roselare needs years imho. I did a strong porter with it. I bottled it after 3 years. It was so full of flavour, but took forever. If i had a cellar, id do more, but it doesnt work in my garage ( easily 30c+ in summer, often 35c+ )

 

[worlddivides]

You might try what Russian River does and ferment with a Sacc down to 1.012-1.014, pitch a Brett culture for 1-2 months, then pitch your bugs (Wyeast Roeselare/Lambic or pure Lacto/Pedio cultures or ECY, etc...).

That's basically what I used to do. I would use a saccharomyces with low attenuation such as Windsor, so the final gravity before pitching bacteria and Brett would be somewhere between 1.014 and 1.018, then I'd pitch a blend with lactobacillus, pedicoccus, and Brettanomyces (and I think it also included a Belgian Sacch strain). A few months later, the gravity would be down to something like 1.002, then after about a year it was well below 1.000. It took a very long time, but the beer in the end was extremely sour. I also added dregs from domestic unpasteurized sours that I particularly liked. I've tried both Wyeast's Lambic Blend and White Labs' Belgian Sour Mix, but I can't remember which beers I used which on.

 

[Snuffy]

I agree that it's just marketing and deceptive at that. While sure, you could probably use Philly Sour for making American Lambics, it's not ideal for the style, because to use it, you'd need to pitch Philly Sour on its own before pitching anything else and allow it to just create lactic acid for a few days, then before it started fermenting much of the ethanol, you'd pitch a regular Saccharomyces yeast strain, which would overpower the Philly Sour, then once the gravity got low, you might pitch pediococcus and Brett (maybe in a sour blend, though that would also include lactobacillus, which would make you wonder why you even needed the Philly Sour).

I do think Philly Sour is a great alternative to kettle-souring and allows you to make Berliner Weisses, goses, and sour IPAs without any risk of contaminating your equipment. I do not think Philly Sour really works for American lambics or wild ales, though. Both of those styles require microorganisms that would contaminate your equipment, so it's just deceptive marketing, really.

I think PS would be good for fruited sours where it would act as the tart component to enhance the tart of the fruit flavor. It adds no complexity at all. The contribution is just acidic tartness and flavor has to come from somewhere else. Is kettle souring similar? I mean, is the result just a simple acidic component with no real depth to it? That was going to be my next step, but if it's just another way to get the same result, I think I may eventually dedicate some of my old equipment to the cause and go full-on horse blanket bugs and bottle dregs.

 

[worlddivides]

I think PS would be good for fruited sours where it would act as the tart component to enhance the tart of the fruit flavor. It adds no complexity at all. The contribution is just acidic tartness and flavor has to come from somewhere else. Is kettle souring similar? I mean, is the result just a simple acidic component with no real depth to it? That was going to be my next step, but if it's just another way to get the same result, I think I may eventually dedicate some of my old equipment to the cause and go full-on horse blanket bugs and bottle dregs.

Oh, definitely. I have a recipe planned using Philly Sour for a mango Berliner Weisse.

Kettle souring is similar in that it's a shortcut for producing only lactic acid and not acetic acid and the complex flavors produced by sour blends (i.e. bacteria and wild yeast). Essentially in kettle souring, in between the mash and the boil (when the wort has fallen to warm temperatures that are high enough to stimulate bacterial fermentation but not so high as to kill the bacteria), you introduce lactobacillus to the kettle and keep the temperature around 120F (49C) for a few days, though some people use lower temperatures like 100F (38C), but that takes more time. After the lactobacillus has created a certain amount of lactic acid, the wort is heated up to boiling temperatures, killing the bacteria (and thus preventing any contamination of your equipment), and then the regular boil happens, also allowing you to use more hops if you want since you will only be adding regular Saccharomyces and don't need to worry about the hops preventing the bacteria from working. This allows for styles where lactic acid bacteria is the only sour component such as Berliner Weisse, gose, and sour IPA (though traditional Berliner Weisses and goses often do contain some Brett flavor). It doesn't have the complexity as traditional sours not just because the lactobacillus only adds lactic acid, but also because the bacteria is killed immediately after creating it, then the beer is not typically aged for months or years but is drank relatively quickly. So in that regard, Philly Sour is kind of like an alternative to kettle souring.