Flanders Red and lactobacillus

[jturnham]

I made a Flanders Red many years ago, when I was still a fairly novice brewer, and it turned out pretty well. I recently decided to make one again now that I have a lot more experience brewing in general. When I went to my LHBS, they didn't have any Roselare or other souring blend. The owner of the shop said I could just use the packet of Wyeast lactobacillus they had after fermenting with a neutral yeast like Safale US-1.

I brewed the beer on June 12th and racked it to the secondary with the lacto about a week later (for some unknown reason I didn't write the date down). Since it's been almost two months, I'd have expected the pellicle to have started forming, but I don't have anything. I started reading up more on Flanders Reds and now realize that the bacteria cultures are a blend of several strains. So, I'm now wondering if I need to get my hands on a packet of Roselare or something similar. I don't want to wait a year just to find out that the lactobacillus alone made a crappy beer that tastes nothing like a Flanders Red.

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[madscientist451]

Easy Flanders red:
Use Jamil Zainasheff's Flander's red recipe,(search on google) mash somewhat high, Ferment with S04, rack to secondary, add East Coast Yeast Bugfarm, http://www.eastcoastyeast.com/wild-stuff.html
wait about a year or 18 months, make same batch and after 2-3 monts do some blending trials to see what your get.

 

[worlddivides]

Flanders red's usually contain: Saccharomyces (standard brewer's yeast), Lactobacillus, Pediococcus, Brettanomyces, and (not on purpose, but it is a major acetic acid producer) Acetobacter.

So, it sounds like you have Saccaromyces and Lactobacillus but are missing Pediococcus and Brettanomyces (the Acetobacter generally gets in through long-term exposure to oxygen).

The main creator of pellicles is Brettanomyces. It is debatable whether Lactobacillus and Pediococcus can produce pellicles or not (I've read stuff that say they cannot and stuff that say they can, but most say that it is unknown whether they can or not. We know for sure that Brettanomyces creates pellicles and some other strains of wild yeast also create pellicles). Likewise, you could have all the microorganisms above and a pellicle still not form.

I think pitching Roeselare might be a good idea.

 

[jturnham]

Thanks, worlddivides. That is helpful. I was already leaning toward pitching Roselare, or something similar, and your info leads me to think that it is probably necessary to get the results I want.

Madscientist, that's not really the info I was looking for but thanks. Incidentally, I used the recipe from Zainasheff's Brewing Classic Styles. I'm curious about the Bugfarm mix and might give it a shot instead of Roselare.

 

[worlddivides]

Thanks, worlddivides. That is helpful. I was already leaning toward pitching Roselare, or something similar, and your info leads me to think that it is probably necessary to get the results I want.

Although there are sour beer styles that consist of just Saccharomyces and Lactobacillus, they taste nothing remotely like Flanders red. Both styles I can think of, Berliner weisse and Gose, are German styles that go for a more simple, clean, and straight-forward taste with only the creamy tartness of lactic acid and none of the more vinegary flavors of acetic acid or the myriad byproducts of Brettanomyces and Pediococcus. Belgian styles tend to have a lot more complexity.

Flanders reds are a very time-intensive style that have a lot of complexity. And that complexity largely comes from the large amount of microorganisms working on the beer over a long period of time. Sure, lambics and Flemish browns also have large numbers of microorganisms working on them, and there are a lot of differences between these styles, but something resembling a Flemish red just isn't possible without Brettanomyces and Pediococcus. Flemish reds usually don't have as much of an influence from Brett as lambics do, but I find it's usually noticeable (just not as pronounced).

Rodenbach, in my opinion, is THE Flemish red ale/Flanders red ale. And where is Rodenbach? Roeselare! Other than the microbes I mentioned, the Roeselare strain also contains a sherry yeast strain. I've never used it personally, but on paper, it looks great: Belgian brewer's yeast, 2 strains of Brettanomyces, a sherry strain, a Lactobacillus strain, and a Pediococcus strain.

Anyyyway, just some supplemental info, I guess.

 

[masonsjax]

Flanders red is all about the pie cherry flavor. That requires brett. The ECY Flanders Red blend is great. Roesealare is ok. But seems bland in comparison. The secret to great sour beers is making a lot of them. The first generation never gets sour enough unless you pitch in a bunch of bottle dregs. Get the first one racked off to secondary, or drink it clean, and get a second one on the cake asap. That's the one that will get sufficiently sour. Then start another. Having a full pipeline is the only way to overcome that years long feedback loop.

 

[tagz]

You're best bet at this point would to add some dregs, and maybe some b. lamibicus if you're feeling frisky. Adding a first gen roeselare pitch at this point would do little to nothing.

 

[phyllobeddo]

I really love Flanders Reds, but have yet to brew any sours. The thought of brewing something and not knowing how it will turn out until a year or two later is tough. There looks to be some great advice in just a few posts in this thread. Great info, guys! I need to do some more research and take a whack at one, or two, three....

 

[worlddivides]

You're best bet at this point would to add some dregs, and maybe some b. lamibicus if you're feeling frisky. Adding a first gen roeselare pitch at this point would do little to nothing.

Why do you think that? I assume when you say "at this point," you mean that all the sugars have been eaten up or something like that. If Saccharomyces and Lactobacillus are the only bugs in there right now, then there should be plenty of sugars for the Roeselare bugs to work on. Sure, the Saccharomyces, sherry, and Lactobacillus would probably do very little at this point (but why would that matter? There's already Saccharomyces and Lactobacillus in there), but the Brettanomyces and Pediococcus would still have tons of stuff to eat -- and Brett doesn't even need anything substantial to eat to impart its "Brett" character. But if the OP is worried, he could just add some more fermentables (he shouldn't need a lot more).

One of the unfortunate things about bottle dregs is that virtually all Flemish reds are flash pasteurized, so you could only add viable bottle dregs from sour beers in other styles (such as lambic). That's definitely not a bad idea, but you won't necessarily be sticking completely to style.

I don't know the current gravity of the beer or how it tastes (etc. etc.), but I think adding Roeselare (or a similar mixture of Flemish red microbes) is better than spending 5x more and getting each individual strain and pitching them.

 

[tagz]

Why do you think that? I assume when you say "at this point," you mean that all the sugars have been eaten up or something like that. If Saccharomyces and Lactobacillus are the only bugs in there right now, then there should be plenty of sugars for the Roeselare bugs to work on. Sure, the Saccharomyces, sherry, and Lactobacillus would probably do very little at this point (but why would that matter? There's already Saccharomyces and Lactobacillus in there), but the Brettanomyces and Pediococcus would still have tons of stuff to eat -- and Brett doesn't even need anything substantial to eat to impart its "Brett" character. But if the OP is worried, he could just add some more fermentables (he shouldn't need a lot more).

One of the unfortunate things about bottle dregs is that virtually all Flemish reds are flash pasteurized, so you could only add viable bottle dregs from sour beers in other styles (such as lambic). That's definitely not a bad idea, but you won't necessarily be sticking completely to style.

I don't know the current gravity of the beer or how it tastes (etc. etc.), but I think adding Roeselare (or a similar mixture of Flemish red microbes) is better than spending 5x more and getting each individual strain and pitching them.

Roeselare is a pretty weak culture on its own. I did a split batch a couple of years ago, five one gallon fermenters. Each got Roeselare and dregs of one beer. Those that got Brett only dregs are not even slightly tart. That was with the entire 40 gravity points to work with. If he fermented with a primary sacc strain all the way down to 10-15 points, I doubt the first gen Roeselare will add much. I could be wrong, but that's my experience.

And I'm not advocating spending money on five individual strains. I'd grab a nice hearty American sour for five bucks, drink the contents, and dump it in. I just suggested lamibicus because it is known for cherry notes.

 

[jturnham]

Thanks everyone for the info. This is very helpful. Clearly I should not have listened to the guy at the homebrew store and/or done more research once I found out he didn't carry any Roselare or some other blend. I'm going to call around to other homebrew stores to see if anyone has Roselare and decide from there which route to go: roselare or dregs of another sour.

At this point, I don't expect to get a true Flanders Red. I just want a nice sour beer to drink in a year or so. The last (and only other) sour I made was pretty funky after a year, but around the two year mark it was awesome. I used Roselare in that one.

 

[worlddivides]

Roeselare is a pretty weak culture on its own. I did a split batch a couple of years ago, five one gallon fermenters. Each got Roeselare and dregs of one beer. Those that got Brett only dregs are not even slightly tart. That was with the entire 40 gravity points to work with. If he fermented with a primary sacc strain all the way down to 10-15 points, I doubt the first gen Roeselare will add much. I could be wrong, but that's my experience.

And I'm not advocating spending money on five individual strains. I'd grab a nice hearty American sour for five bucks, drink the contents, and dump it in. I just suggested lamibicus because it is known for cherry notes.

I'm not saying he should specifically use the Wyeast Roeselare blend, but just that he should use some kind of Flemish red ale blend (such as the East Coast Yeast blend that masonsjax mentioned).

Now, I do believe that adding Brettanomyces lambicus alone would definitely improve his beer, but it really comes down to how close to a traditional Flemish red he wants. If it's not super important, then adding bottle dregs from unpasteurized lambics and American sours would be a great idea for making the beer more complex.

Also, I've heard different people getting wildly different results. I didn't add any bugs to my current sour until Sacch alone had gotten it down to 1.012, but now that beer is extremely tart (almost mouthpuckeringly so). Granted, I added bottle dregs too, but it only had 1.012 to work with and now it's down to 1.005 and probably can keep going a few more points. On the other hand, I've heard of people who have fermented a 1.040 beer with a sour blend and got "only very slightly sour" results, so I guess you can never say for sure one way or another.

 

[masonsjax]

I forgot to mention in my earlier post to get Michael Tonsmeire's book American Sour Beer, it has tons of great info on making sour brews. His blog is a wealth of info as well. Then load up a bunch of carboys with wort and let the waiting begin!

 

[tagz]

Also, I've heard different people getting wildly different results. I didn't add any bugs to my current sour until Sacch alone had gotten it down to 1.012, but now that beer is extremely tart (almost mouthpuckeringly so). Granted, I added bottle dregs too, but it only had 1.012 to work with and now it's down to 1.005 and probably can keep going a few more points. On the other hand, I've heard of people who have fermented a 1.040 beer with a sour blend and got "only very slightly sour" results, so I guess you can never say for sure one way or another.

Bottle dregs tend to be pretty hearty bugs. A crooked stave or jolly pumpkin will produce tart to sour beer with just a few gravity points in a matter of a couple months. The bacteria tend to be more hop tolerant and have been through many generations of actual beer wort (as opposed to lab based conditions). I've heard people get solid results out of a pure Roeselare slurry after a generation on two as well.