flaked grain mash

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anderj

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I searched for some info on this but didn't get too far. I am putting an oatmeal stout together on monday and I have one question. Everything that I read says that the flakes need to be mashed to get any real advantage out of them. I am still in the extract stage so I don't really know what that entails. Is it possible to with a metal colander and a large sauce pan? Or in my brew pot? I will only be using .5 lb barley flakes and 1lb oat flakes. I work in the bulk foods section of the local CO-OP so I have about 10 kinds of flaked grains at my fingertips and would like to be able to use them properly.

My guess is heat them up in the colander (in the brewpot) to 150 or so, hold it for .5 hour and rinse them out with water that is 160-170? Would that do the trick?

thanks
-Ander

Also, any experience with Quinoa, Triticale, Kamut, Teff (whole grain), Spelt, or other esoteric grain flakes?
 

BREW N QUE

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You have the right idea, but you will need to add some grains with the proper enzymes to convert the starches. I believe a pound of six row would have enough diastic power.
 
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anderj

anderj

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so If I carried out just as I stated above with one pound of six-row in the colander with the flakes they would develop the sugars that I am looking for? My thought on this is that if I am using the six-row mostly as means for extracting the proteins and such from the flakes I don't need to be so "scientific". I can understand that if this was the sole/main source of my fermentables I would need very meticulous, but in this case it is maybe not so important.

so here is the plan then, just to get the goods out of some flaked grains

put one pound six-row and 1-1.5 lbs of flakes in the colander

heat water in brewpot to 150 or so

let it sit .5 hour

pour some 160-170 water through the colander

pull everything out and proceed with the boil/grain steeping ect just as in any extract brew

major flaws?

do I have to smoosh it around some?

I know you can get pre-gelatinised (sp?) oats but that sucks, I would want the real thing if it would be this easy to do it from the simple flaked grain


thanks again
-ander
 

CBBaron

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I think you are getting closer, but when most brewers refer to flaked grains they are referring to the pre-gelantized flaked grains designed for brewing. Instant oats are similar but rolled oats are not. If you are getting flaked grains from a health food store I think you will need to cook them before doing the mash described above. You can cook them as you would if making a breakfast cereal (without adding any extra flavorings or milk). Then mix them in with some crushed six-row and let sit at 150-155F for 30-60 min. Then you can rinse with 170F water to help extract the sugars.

Craig
 
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anderj

anderj

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.5 lb six-row would do it then? My colander is not the largest one I have seen.

ander
 

DeathBrewer

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wait...are you steeping the grains or boiling them?

here's how you should do it for a "pseudo mash":

put all the grains in 150F water at 1.25 quarts/lb
(so for 2 lbs, you'd want 2.5 quarts of water)

steep at 150-160F for 30 minutes

heat up some sparge water to 170F

pour grains and water through colander into brew pot

use sparge water and pour over grains in colander (into brew pot)

throw away your grains. add a pound or two of extract

start your boil

add the rest of the extract at the end of boil
 

boo boo

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anderj said:
.5 lb six-row would do it then? My colander is not the largest one I have seen.

ander
No, I'm saying that 1 Lb of 6 row can convert UP TO 1/4 Lb of flaked oats.
To use more than 1/4 Lb of oats you would need a lot more base grain.
 

Yooper

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You can use a big mesh bag to hold your grains for steeping/mashing. I have one that is huge- like a big paint strainer bag. You can put your grains in that, and keep them in the 152 degree water for 45 minutes or so, dunking them like a big tea bag to make sure the water flows through it well.

And, like the others said, precook your grains in a "cereal mash". Just like you were making oatmeal.
 
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anderj

anderj

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boo boo said:
No, I'm saying that 1 Lb of 6 row can convert UP TO 1/4 Lb of flaked oats.
To use more than 1/4 Lb of oats you would need a lot more base grain.
I don't really have the equipment for grain brewing even for partial mash so using more than a lb or so won't fit into the colander.

You really think that to use 1.5 lb flaked grains I would need 6 lb of six-row to develop the sugars? Seems excessive but I am new to the grain world (other than just steeping grains).

What about putting 3 or so lbs of six row in a pot with the (cooked) flaked grains, hold at 150-155 for 45 min, and sparge in my colander piece-wise (maybe have to do two or three colander fills to get through the volume)?

Maybe I will just give up with the real thing until I am equipped to do partial mash or all grain, I thought that it would be a little bit simpler to get the useful bits out of the flaked grains.

Then there is this, from Papazian, 1991 (2nd Edition pp. 261) "...massive pressures involved in rolling wet grains creates heat. This heat along with the heat that is added to the rollers instantly gelatinizes these grains. Because flaked grains are gelatinized they can be added directly to the mash without precooking."
 

Yooper

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Well, I think Palmer is talking about the flaked grains you get from the LHBS, that are pregelatinized, not uncooked flaked grains. That's the difference.

You don't want to try the big paint strainer thing? It's much easier than a colander!
 
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anderj

anderj

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YooperBrew said:
You don't want to try the big paint strainer thing? It's much easier than a colander!
Yea I think that this might be the way to go. I bought two yards of mesh from my LHBS (for 7 bucks!!!) and have only made two steeping bags out of it so I do have plenty left to make a really big bag.

Still think 6 lbs of six-row?

pre-gelatinized processed un-organic crap here I come:(

thanks for the paint strainer idea, I might sew up a flat bottom bag that takes up the bottom of my brew pot.
 
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No matter how you slice it (colander, paint strainer, grain bag, etc), you're attempting a partial mash recipe here. There's NOTHING wrong with that! Don't be afraid...and go for it! You're still going to use extract as your primary source of fermentables, and the cereals along with a bit of malted barley can only add character. I'll second the large paint strainer idea. You've got all the right ideas, now you just need to get brewing!
 
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anderj

anderj

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OK, f*** it, I guess I am going partial mash, wasn't planning of that but It cant be that hard right?
 
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anderj

anderj

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I have a buddy that brews for a living, last time that I ran into him I was telling him about what I had been doing.
His response, "Man,...you just opened a whole can of worms, want to come over and do a batch?"
I would say he was right
-ander
 

CBBaron

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I believe if you are using pregelitinized flaked grains you can convert using 6-row in a 1:1 ratio, maybe even more adjunct than that. 6-row and even modern 2-row malts are very high in enzymes and can convert more than their weight in adjuncts. However it may take an extended mash if the ratio exceed 1:1 by much.
As an example Munich malt is self converting but only has a diastatic power of 30. 6-row has a diastatic power 160. I think this translates into even with a ratio of adjunct to 6-row of 3:1 there is a higher conversion power with the 6-row than with the Munich by itself.
Craig
 

flowerysong

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boo boo said:
Bit too much on the flaked/6 row ratio. 6 row can convert up to 30% of adjunts IIRC.
2-row's usually right around 35%. With 6-row up to about 60% of your mash can be adjuncts. As it happens, 1 pound of 6-row and 1.5 pounds of oats would yield a mash with exactly 60% adjuncts.

To the OP: pre-gelatinised oats aren't any less "real" than raw oats. Gelatinisation simply refers to heating cereal in water to break down the intermolecular bonds in the starch; it's not some abstruse industrial process.

However, there seems to be some confusion as to exactly what type of oats you're trying to use. Rolled (also called flaked) oats are pre-gelatinised and are the most common type of oats used for breakfast cereal, since people don't like the long cooking times concomitant with using the next type. Steel-cut oats are not pre-gelatinised, and require a separate cereal mash prior to the mash with the base malt.

How is this done? Simply cook it as though you were making a bowl of oatmeal for breakfast. For steel-cut oats, boil them in water (two gallons per pound of grain) for a lot of minutes (generally around 45 minutes to an hour). When the grain and water mixture takes on a fairly uniform consistency, gelatinisation is complete.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend using oats for your first venture into mashing, as they make sparging a fair bit more annoying.
 

reshp1

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anderj said:
I don't really have the equipment for grain brewing even for partial mash so using more than a lb or so won't fit into the colander.

You really think that to use 1.5 lb flaked grains I would need 6 lb of six-row to develop the sugars? Seems excessive but I am new to the grain world (other than just steeping grains).
Wouldn't 30% be more like 1lb barley to 1/2 lb oats, not 1/4 lbs oats. In which case you would only need 3lbs barley.
 
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