First Wort Hopping

[MattHollingsworth]

Thank you!

 

[Poolplayer]

I've done an APA, Amer Brown Ale, Bavarian Hefe, and a Tripel. I'd do it with pretty much any brew.

So, If I were doing a Bavarian-Hefe in an extract kit, I would just add the 1oz tettnang(normally the 60min addition) roughly 20 minutes before the boil where I would then add the wheat and then bring that to a boil(60min) correct? I just did a hefe yesterday so I'm missing out on this experiment, however I'm starting a single hop best bitter kit next week, and I might want to get an understanding of where those additions would be used in this FWH style. For this SH2B there are 2oz fuggle(60min), 1ozfuggle(15min), & 1oz Fuggle at 5min. So I would add the 2oz while steeping, and keep the late additions at the same time?
I appreciate the help on here to making better beer

 

[Denny]

You would use your 15 min. hops as FWH in your example. You would add them after you'd added the extract, and then let them steep for maybe 20 min. before bringing the wort to a boil. That said, I don't think I'd FWH a hefe.

 

[Bob]

I think he's talking about his Single-Hop Best Bitter, not hefe.

Poolplayer: FWH is, to my mind, basically using your bittering addition for flavor, too. In this case, you don't omit the recipe's 60-minute addition and FWH the 15-minute addition; quite the reverse, actually. The 60-minute addition used as FWH will give a wonderful dose of hops flavor as well as smooth bitterness.

Regards,

Bob

 

[Shaggyt]

Whatever you choose, just don't use both. I recently brewed an IPA with both a FWH and 60 min addition of Chinook...basically creating the most bitter beer I've ever tasted...quite overwhelming when I tasted the gravity sample yesterday.

I had read through most of this thread about a month ago and apparently did not remember to substitute my 60 min bittering hops with the FWH bittering

I'm hoping time and bottle conditioning will melloow this brew to drinkable standards...maybe by June.

 

[Denny]

I think he's talking about his Single-Hop Best Bitter, not hefe.

I see that now...thanks for the correction!

 

[Denny]

Whatever you choose, just don't use both. I recently brewed an IPA with both a FWH and 60 min addition of Chinook...basically creating the most bitter beer I've ever tasted...quite overwhelming when I tasted the gravity sample yesterday.

I had read through most of this thread about a month ago and apparently did not remember to substitute my 60 min bittering hops with the FWH bittering

I'm hoping time and bottle conditioning will melloow this brew to drinkable standards...maybe by June.

I almost always do both and don't find the beers overbittered.

 

[Shaggyt]

I almost always do both and don't find the beers overbittered.

Interesting...how long are your boils and what hop amounts are used? Assuming you brew a 5.5-6 gal batch.

I used the following:

FWH 1oz Chinook
60min 1.5 Chinook

Both pellets in a bag, 90 minute boil.

 

[bigjoe]

NQ3X I don't do a Single hop best bitter. I do this on all my beers. Mostly recently on a dunkelweisen.

Poolplayer, not sure what to do for an extract. I've only done this with all grain as it lends it self nicely to FWH. I suppose you could put the extract in hot water as many do to thin it. Add it to the water as your bringing it up to boil. In other words dont have your water boiling when you add your malt extract. Add it as your bringing it up to boil.

I do this with Full Volume - No Sparge mash (BIAB) batches. I add ALL BITTER hops after mashing then ramp up for the boil as usual (ramp up 15-20 minutes). I'll boil for 60-75 minutes usually.

 

[Poolplayer]

Ok, I'm not doing this batch till Wednesday so I have a few days for you guys to straighten this out as to what's omitted and/or what's substituted. Am I going to use the 1oz fuggle that would've been the 15min addition at FWH and pass on the 2oz addition for 60minutes, or am I going to use both with again using the 1oz 15min addition at FWH then also adding the 2oz addition for the 60 minutes. This will be for the SH2B. My brain hurts getting the story straight

 

[Bob]

Look, keep things simple. Only change one thing. That one thing is:

Instead of adding your 2 oz. of "bittering" hops after the boil begins, after you see hot break, add them as soon as you start to run wort off into the kettle from the mash tun. Then proceed as normal.

Since FWH adds significant hops flavor as well as bitterness, you really don't need the 15-minute addition. Do add the specified one ounce at 5 minutes for aroma.

Again, the only timing you're changing is when to add your first charge of hops (the 2 oz. charge).

Bob

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Yeah, I think people tend to overthink this. I generally just reduce my aroma and flavor additions a little bit then use FWH as my bittering addition. It doesn't have to be exact or anything though. It's not going to hurt you no matter how you use it though.

 

[Poolplayer]

Look, keep things simple. Only change one thing. That one thing is:

Instead of adding your 2 oz. of "bittering" hops after the boil begins, after you see hot break, add them as soon as you start to run wort off into the kettle from the mash tun. Then proceed as normal.


Bob

Ummm, this is the extract thread on FWH. Duuuuuude!! :rockin:

 

[Poolplayer]

I'm doing this: Steeping grains, FWH the 2oz of fuggle,(boil), add extracts,at 60 minute boil start add the 1oz fuggle and with 5 minuntes left add the last 1oz fuggle. This is a NB kit.

I'll be back in 8 hours to see if this is generally the steps accepted by the masses. Once I get this straight then I have to try to teach this to my friend too- sheeesh!

 

[Bob]

Ummm, this is the extract thread on FWH. Duuuuuude!!

Aw,crap.

I don't think I've ever tried FWH with extract.

 

[Bob]

I'm doing this: Steeping grains, FWH the 2oz of fuggle,(boil), add extracts,at 60 minute boil start add the 1oz fuggle and with 5 minuntes left add the last 1oz fuggle. This is a NB kit.

No no no no no. Let me try this one more time:

Your boiling addition - the 2 ounces of Fuggles - go in as FWH.*

Your flavoring addition - 1 ounce of Fuggles - can either be omitted or go in at the prescribed 15 minutes.

Your aroma addition - the last ounce of Fuggles - goes in at the prescribed 5 minutes.

You can omit the flavor addition because FWH imparts a significant amount of flavor.

Regards,

Bob

* Exactly how you're going to do this is beyond me. The suggestion about treating your steeping liquor as FWH wort is as good as any.

 

[bigjoe]

PoolPlayer if you normally wait until the boil started to add extract add it sooner. In my case I'm adding bittering hops to the wort at around 180F giving me about 20 minutes of FWH before boil.

I like NQ3X's advice on not changing a lot of praramters. What is being suggested is to just add boil hops before the boil basically.

One thing to note is this won't drastically alter the flavor of your beer. Its not going to make it over the top bitter or extremely flavorful with hops. The changes I've noted have been subtle, but noticable. So don't worry about screwing it up.

Edit: I'd do exactly what NQ3X has above

 

[Denny]

Interesting...how long are your boils and what hop amounts are used? Assuming you brew a 5.5-6 gal batch.

I used the following:

FWH 1oz Chinook
60min 1.5 Chinook

Both pellets in a bag, 90 minute boil.

I aim for 5.5 gal. finished volume and do 60-90 min. boils. The amount and type of FWH varies widely. My first thought on looking at your numbers is that's a LOT of Chinook at 60, even without FWH. What did your IBU figure out to?

 

[Denny]

Ok, I'm not doing this batch till Wednesday so I have a few days for you guys to straighten this out as to what's omitted and/or what's substituted. Am I going to use the 1oz fuggle that would've been the 15min addition at FWH and pass on the 2oz addition for 60minutes, or am I going to use both with again using the 1oz 15min addition at FWH then also adding the 2oz addition for the 60 minutes. This will be for the SH2B. My brain hurts getting the story straight

Use the 15 min. addition for FWH. Bring your water and extract up to about 150, add the FWH, and steep for 15-20 min. Bring to a boil and ad your 60 min. addition, go from there.

 

[RichBenn]

Instead of adding your 2 oz. of "bittering" hops after the boil begins, after you see hot break, add them as soon as you start to run wort off into the kettle from the mash tun. Then proceed as normal.

Since FWH adds significant hops flavor as well as bitterness, you really don't need the 15-minute addition.
Bob

And, in general, you'll need to adjust the IBUs for any given recipe to account for no 15-minute addition.

And this applies to the extract - add at 150F wort ~= FWH, like another poster said.

 

[tincob]

I had posted this on the extract forum but this thread seems to be discussing the same issue.

I tried to really be detailed in what I'm attempting since I believe there are other noobs like myself who are confused by the various terminologies. Hope this helps.

Hop Head Double IPA extract kit with steeping grains from Midwest.

Original hop schedule
60 mins: 1 oz Chinook
45 mins: 1/2 oz Cascade
30 mins: 1/2 oz Centennial
20 mins: 1/2 oz Cascade
10 mins: 1/2 oz Centennial
5 mins: 1 oz Crystal
Dry Hop: 2 oz whole hops


My revised process for FWH with extract & steeping grains:
- Steep the specialty grains for 30 mins in 2.5~3 gals
- Add the extracts (some or all) maintaining the 155 deg F temp
- FWH at 155 deg F for 20-30 mins
- Add heated water to bring to full volume (~6 gals)
- Bring up to boil, and proceed with the rest.


Reading this thread, there seems to be two approaches:

Option one: FWH with bittering hops
FWH: 1 oz Chinook
60 mins: moved to FWH
45 mins: 1/2 oz Cascade
30 mins: 1/2 oz Centennial
20 mins: 1/2 oz Cascade
10 mins: 1/2 oz Centennial
5 mins: 1 oz Crystal
Dry Hop: 2 oz whole hops


Option two: FWH with finishing hops
FWH: 1/2 oz Cascade, 1/2 oz Centennial
60 mins: 1 oz Chinook
45 mins: 1/2 oz Cascade
30 mins: 1/2 oz Centennial
20 mins: moved to FWH
10 mins: moved to FWH
5 mins: 1 oz Crystal
Dry Hop: 2 oz whole hops


The recommended FWH hop amount is 30% of the total hop load. Mine is 25%, a little lower than the recommended amount but I'm okay with that.

I want a smooth bitterness without losing the hop aroma and flavor. So which option is the right one, if there a "correct" approach?

If we can find a good method, this could become another tool for the extract brewers.

 

[Shaggyt]

I aim for 5.5 gal. finished volume and do 60-90 min. boils. The amount and type of FWH varies widely. My first thought on looking at your numbers is that's a LOT of Chinook at 60, even without FWH. What did your IBU figure out to?

Well, I just realized that I made a major snafu when brewing this batch. I somehow mixed up the hop schedule with that of a 10 gallon batch, sort of...like a hybrid I guess.

I just plugged it into the recipator and it came back with 122IBUs...which explains the problem. Conversely, I also took another gravity sample today...smoother than the other day.

I'm usually more on point than this...thanks for the feedback though.

 

[HangLoose]

Tincob: I think you'll be happy with your second hop schedule. FWH seems to more flavor then bitterness so it makes sense to move your flavor additions.

 

[tincob]

Tincob: I think you'll be happy with your second hop schedule. FWH seems to more flavor then bitterness so it makes sense to move your flavor additions.

Yeah, the flavor additions FWH seems to be the process recommended by John Palmer.

I will brew the IIPA next weekend and will report back to this thread on how it went.

 

[Poolplayer]

No no no no no. Let me try this one more time:

Your boiling addition - the 2 ounces of Fuggles - go in as FWH.*

Your flavoring addition - 1 ounce of Fuggles - can either be omitted or go in at the prescribed 15 minutes.

Your aroma addition - the last ounce of Fuggles - goes in at the prescribed 5 minutes.

You can omit the flavor addition because FWH imparts a significant amount of flavor.

Regards,

Bob

* Exactly how you're going to do this is beyond me. The suggestion about treating your steeping liquor as FWH wort is as good as any.

Ok, This looks good to me so far. I'm also reading that I should add the extracts after I've steeped and just have one boil session. I've usually steeped 15-20, gotten to boil, taken pot off heat to then add the extract, then ramped up to boiling again then started the 60 minute timer with additions at prescribed times. Perhaps I've created an additional wasted step in my processes, but that's what I thought I was reading from the brew book. All that extra time could be boiling away flavors by doing it twice?

NQ3Xl - LMAO at the "awww crap" comeback with video, freakin' awesome! :rockin:

I'll find a way to pass on my results as I countdown to FWH on brewday.

 

[tincob]

I brewed the Hop Head Double IPA kit on Sunday

2L starter with Wyeast American Ale yeast per their instructions. I did sneak 1.5 pint worth of starter to wash for future use before pitching.

Followed this schedule
FWH: 1/2 oz Cascade, 1/2 oz Centennial
60 mins: 1 oz Chinook
45 mins: 1/2 oz Cascade
30 mins: 1/2 oz Centennial
20 mins: moved to FWH
10 mins: moved to FWH
5 mins: 1 oz Crystal
Dry Hop: 2 oz whole hops

Couple of changes from what I posted before.

I steeped with the full 5 gallon volume (actually 5.75 gals to account for boil off) for 20 minutes.

Because I was so focused on the FWH process, I forgot to add the 1/3 of LME right off the bat.

I did catch myself 10 minutes into the 30 min FWH process (@ 155 degrees) and added the LME. I used a 5 gallon HD paint strainer bag to hop.

I did a late extract addition of the remaining 2/3 of LME at flameout.

The paint strainer bag did a decent job but I still wound up with a lot of hop trub at the bottom of the brew kettle. I probably sacrificed two bottles worth by keeping the trub out of the primary. I want to see how clear I can make the beer this time (my 4th batch).

I hit the 1.070 SG on the nail! But it's an extract kit so not too hard.

24 hours into the fermentation, I had to exchange the airlock to a blow off. A day and a half into the fermentation, the pressure had pushed the bung out of the 6 gallon winpak container.

I'm not too worried about contamination as the CO2 out-gassing was pretty strong. I made sure to really push the bung into the opening. I'll have to pay attention that I don't push it all the way in - that would be fun, trying to get the stopper out.

It's my first high gravity beer so I hope I get full attenuation with the yeast, i.e. no stuck fermentation.

The initial sample was pretty bitter (I guess to be expected in an IIPA). I'll have to see if the malt flavor will balance the bitterness once it ages properly.

I still have 2 ozs of Cascade leaves to dry hop. I will wait until two weeks before dry hopping in the primary with a hop bag.

Until later...

 

[RichBenn]

Followed this schedule
FWH: 1/2 oz Cascade, 1/2 oz Centennial
60 mins: 1 oz Chinook
45 mins: 1/2 oz Cascade
30 mins: 1/2 oz Centennial
20 mins: moved to FWH
10 mins: moved to FWH
5 mins: 1 oz Crystal
Dry Hop: 2 oz whole hops
QUOTE]

Can someone explain to me why, when using the technique of moving the flavoring additions(10 and 20 minute) to FWH, why one does not reduce the amount?

I've been doing the other technique (just moving the bittering addition to FWH) and it is plenty hoppy. Makes sense, as tests I've seen indicate the actual bitterness will be higher, as it's in for longer. So shouldn't one be reducing the amount of hops somewhat if moving the flavoring additions? I know the "it's a smoother perceived bitterness" line, but, like I said, moving the bittering addition seems the same, just different.

Might not make much difference in heavy beers, but a light Pale Ale recipe that had the high alpha late additions moved to FWH might be very noticeable and perhaps off balance.

Rich

 

[schristian619]

I did my first FWH beer a couple weeks ago. It was an IPA that I used only FWH and late hop additions (all 30 min or less aditions, but a lot of them). I racked and dry-hoped last weekend and the sample was great. Very smooth bitterness and great flavor/aroma. I used only amarillo and cascade. I'm not sure how the FWH bitterness was caculated, but I just trusted Beer Alchemy's numbers.

 

[Poolplayer]

I FWH a Single Hop Best Bitter kit from NB. I added the 60 minute addition after steeping the grains, and followed the rest of the recipe script. I also had to blow off both batches. I'll know more tomorrow once I rack to secondary what is going on for flavor and aromas.

 

[tincob]

Updating with some results.

I thought about using a secondary to dry-hop but decided against it because of various reasons. Plus, I'm lazy.

3 weeks in primary, 1 week dry-hop also in the primary (I did not use a hop bag), then I crash cooled for 1 week. I swirled the primary while dry hopping but most of the hop leaves were still floating on top when I racked to the bottling bucket.

I used a muslin bag rubber banded to the end of the auto-siphon but it was causing too many bubbles so I took it off during the racking process.

When I sampled the hydrometer reading, it was quite bitter and I couldn't taste the malt base which is supposed to balance IIPAs.

Three weeks into the bottle aging process, I opened a bottle to taste. Decent carbonation and the bitterness bite is now gone. Nice hop smell but not as much hop flavor as I expected. I think it's still a bit green as the house temperature is on the low side.

I plan on giving it a few more weeks to let the taste balance out. On the whole, I'm quite pleased with the result and will be doing FWH with extract again.