First time sparge?

[Ijp11]

For a couple of years i have been doing BIAB no sparge all grain method and am currently getting into full all grain brewing. After mashing for an hour would your recommend a mash out then continuous sparge, or is the mash out unnecessary.
Thanks.

 

[Yooper]

For a couple of years i have been doing BIAB no sparge all grain method and am currently getting into full all grain brewing. After mashing for an hour would your recommend a mash out then continuous sparge, or is the mash out unnecessary.
Thanks.

If you're doing a continuous sparge, a mash out is pretty important to denature the enzymes that would continue to work on the mash profile during the hour long sparge. If you're batch sparging, it's not as important.

 

[Sailingeric]

If you no sparge then you will get a lower efficency . I have fly sparge my last couple batches and have been getting in the high 70's .

 

[RM-MN]

I would recommend a double batch sparge over a continuous (fly) sparge. You gain little efficiency for the extra time and effort of the fly sparge and with a batch sparge you don't need to heat the wort to 168 (170) for a mash out. You could even use cool water for the sparge with little change except for a little longer time to get to boil.

 

[sky4meplease]

I have never done a Mash out with fly sparge. I Mash for an hour, vorlauf for five minutes (give or take) and start sprinkling 195 degree water over the Mash. Within 15 minutes or so the Mash is at 168-170 degrees and I routinely get 80-82% efficiency.
My attenuation falls in line with my Mash temps drying out when done on the low end and finishing higher when mashed above 153.

 

[Pappers_]

If you're doing a continuous sparge, a mash out is pretty important to denature the enzymes that would continue to work on the mash profile during the hour long sparge. If you're batch sparging, it's not as important.

What she said. If you are fly sparging (which is what I think you mean by a continuous sparge) then you need to do a mash out to get the temp of your grain up to stop the enzymes from continuing to convert. If you are batch sparging, then your first batch sparge would act like a mash out step and raise the temps sufficiently.

 

[Pappers_]

I have never done a Mash out with fly sparge. I Mash for an hour, vorlauf for five minutes (give or take) and start sprinkling 195 degree water over the Mash. Within 15 minutes or so the Mash is at 168-170 degrees and I routinely get 80-82% efficiency.
My attenuation falls in line with my Mash temps drying out when done on the low end and finishing higher when mashed above 153.

I am not an expert on fly sparging, but 195 degree water is pretty high. If you were batch sparging with that, you would run the risk of extracting tannins. Perhaps that isn't such an issue with fly sparging - certainly not initially. But how high does your mash temp get, over the hour of the fly sparging?

 

[sky4meplease]

I am not an expert on fly sparging, but 195 degree water is pretty high. If you were batch sparging with that, you would run the risk of extracting tannins. Perhaps that isn't such an issue with fly sparging - certainly not initially. But how high does your mash temp get, over the hour of the fly sparging?

It says right there in my post that the Mash temp reaches 168-170 degrees within 15 minutes or so of starting to sparge.
I only monitor the Mash temp as I sparge and 195 degree sparge water sprinkled over the Mash maintaining an inch or two of coverage raises the Mash temperature to Mash out temps. No need to mix in sparge water and disturb the Mash.
When I first started with this system I would sparge with 175 degree water and it wasn't hot enough after its trip to the Mash to reach Mash out temps. I gradually raised the temperature over several batches until I found the sweet spot. 195 degrees.

 

[Pappers_]

It says right there in my post that the Mash temp reaches 168-170 degrees within 15 minutes or so of starting to sparge. . . . .

Sorry for being unclear. I was asking what happens to your temps after 15 minutes, does it continue to rise, and if yes, how much?

 

[Yooper]

It says right there in my post that the Mash temp reaches 168-170 degrees within 15 minutes or so of starting to sparge.
I only monitor the Mash temp as I sparge and 195 degree sparge water sprinkled over the Mash maintaining an inch or two of coverage raises the Mash temperature to Mash out temps. No need to mix in sparge water and disturb the Mash.
When I first started with this system I would sparge with 175 degree water and it wasn't hot enough after its trip to the Mash to reach Mash out temps. I gradually raised the temperature over several batches until I found the sweet spot. 195 degrees.

So, you're doing a mash out.

 

[sky4meplease]

Sorry for being unclear. I was asking what happens to your temps after 15 minutes, does it continue to rise, and if yes, how much?

It's typically maxed out at 168-170 degrees. My sparge takes roughly 40 minutes? Can't say I have ever timed it but I try to let it run out of the Mash tun pretty slow.

 

[EcuPirate07]

I batch sparge and since getting my own mill i'm hitting around 84-86% efficiency AND saving myself an extra hour on my brew day, I would say try a batch sparge before committing to fly sparge.....just my 2 cents.

 

[sky4meplease]

So, you're doing a mash out.

Guilty

 

[RM-MN]

What she said. If you are fly sparging (which is what I think you mean by a continuous sparge) then you need to do a mash out to get the temp of your grain up to stop the enzymes from continuing to convert. If you are batch sparging, then your first batch sparge would act like a mash out step and raise the temps sufficiently.

Why is it so necessary to do a mash out with fly sparging but not when doing an overnight mash? If the enzymes are so active during fly sparging as to dry out the beer, overnight mashes should then also get us very dry beer....but they don't.

 

[RM-MN]

So, you're doing a mash out.

Is it a mash out or an extended mash with slowly rising temperatures? 15 minutes to raise the temp that far would seem to change the mash temp, nearly equivalent to a step mash.

 

[sky4meplease]

For a couple of years i have been doing BIAB no sparge all grain method and am currently getting into full all grain brewing. After mashing for an hour would your recommend a mash out then continuous sparge, or is the mash out unnecessary.

Thanks.

What is "full" all grain brewing?
I got the idea from this Post that you are currently doing full volume Mash BIAB and are looking to ditch the bag and fly sparge ("continuous sparge") over the grains in the tun.
If my assumption is correct your Mash out will occur during the fly sparge (slowly raises the Mash temperature to Mash out temperature) assuming your sparge water is hot enough.
I will go out on a limb and say if you are fly sparging you don't need to batch sparge in order to achieve a Mash out.

 

[Bobby_M]

Starting a fly sparge with 195F water is a little risky because the top of the mash will in fact be that hot for a while. If the whole mash reaches 168 within 15 minutes, it means that sparge water has made it's way all the way through the grain bed and that would indicate too fast of a sparge. I'm not trying to cut your method down, but you may be extracting tannins that you are just used to tasting now. If you continue this process, I hope you at least acidify your sparge water.

When a typical mashout infusion is performed, it may be even as high as boiling but the near instant equilibrium reached by stirring immediately does not subject any grain to low buffer/high temp situations.

 

[Pappers_]

Why is it so necessary to do a mash out with fly sparging but not when doing an overnight mash? If the enzymes are so active during fly sparging as to dry out the beer, overnight mashes should then also get us very dry beer....but they don't.

Can't speak to overnight mashing, but i have done two hour mashes in order to produce a more fermentable wort, which gave the result I was looking for. Not a scientific study of course.

 

[max384]

It says right there in my post that the Mash temp reaches 168-170 degrees within 15 minutes or so of starting to sparge.
I only monitor the Mash temp as I sparge and 195 degree sparge water sprinkled over the Mash maintaining an inch or two of coverage raises the Mash temperature to Mash out temps. No need to mix in sparge water and disturb the Mash.
When I first started with this system I would sparge with 175 degree water and it wasn't hot enough after its trip to the Mash to reach Mash out temps. I gradually raised the temperature over several batches until I found the sweet spot. 195 degrees.

I'll mirror what @Bobby_M said. I would definitely be worried about tannin extraction at those temps. Regardless of what the temperature of the wort is coming out, the temp at the top is 195 F, which is well into tannin extraction territory.

As was also said, you're basically doing a mash out, but you're risking tannin extraction. If you're going to be adding near-boiling water anyhow, why not just do a mash out and get your grain bed to 160-170, and then just sparge with that temp sparge water. You'll end up with wort coming out in the same temp range, but without the risk of tannin extraction from continuous exposure of the grain at the top to hot water temps.

 

[sky4meplease]

Starting a fly sparge with 195F water is a little risky because the top of the mash will in fact be that hot for a while. If the whole mash reaches 168 within 15 minutes, it means that sparge water has made it's way all the way through the grain bed and that would indicate too fast of a sparge. I'm not trying to cut your method down, but you may be extracting tannins that you are just used to tasting now. If you continue this process, I hope you at least acidify your sparge water.

When a typical mashout infusion is performed, it may be even as high as boiling but the near instant equilibrium reached by stirring immediately does not subject any grain to low buffer/high temp situations.

My 195 degree sparge water inevitably drops in temperature by the time it reaches the Mash since it free falls through the head space in my Mash tun. I don't believe tannins to be an issue and beers I have had judged have never indicated such.
I don't have a lot of commercial brewing experience but a friend of mine brews an a state of the art 15 bbl system that is essentially the same concept as mine. Mix strike water with grains to desired consistency (my method for that is a little more precise than his), stabilize the Mash temp and let it rest. After the rest you start raining hot water over the Mash to rinse out the sugars and raise the temperature to stop conversion. They don't do a "mashout infusion".

 

[sky4meplease]

I'll mirror what @Bobby_M said. I would definitely be worried about tannin extraction at those temps. Regardless of what the temperature of the wort is coming out, the temp at the top is 195 F, which is well into tannin extraction territory.



As was also said, you're basically doing a mash out, but you're risking tannin extraction. If you're going to be adding near-boiling water anyhow, why not just do a mash out and get your grain bed to 160-170, and then just sparge with that temp sparge water. You'll end up with wort coming out in the same temp range, but without the risk of tannin extraction from continuous exposure of the grain at the top to hot water temps.

I don't see a need to disturb the Mash before vorlauf. When I'm done mashing I vorlauf a gallon and start rinsing. I set the rate of run off and walk away. When I have 3/4 of my runnings I turn on the heat and by the time I get volume I am reaching a boil.
My efficiencies are remarkably consistent and over 80% and I am able to predict my FG to within a point or two. I don't see a reason to change at this point.
Sorry I don't batch sparge. I should be punished.

 

[tgmartin000]

Single batch sparge FTW! Empty the tun, add 185 degree water, the batch sparge basically does the mash out.

I prefer my beers (for the most part) more well attenuated, rather than less, so skipping a true mash out has never bothered me.

 

[frozengator]

Nice info on here, I just need to understand more of what's going on. Heading to YouTube. I want to get into AG, so reading post like these really help me understand the process

 

[RM-MN]

Single batch sparge FTW! Empty the tun, add 185 degree water, the batch sparge basically does the mash out.

I prefer my beers (for the most part) more well attenuated, rather than less, so skipping a true mash out has never bothered me.

A batch sparge shouldn't need or benefit from mash out. Before the enzymes have a chance to be denatured fully your sparge should be done and the wort a boil. Dump in your sparge water, stir well, and then drain. No waiting, no need for hot water.:rockin:

 

[sky4meplease]

A batch sparge shouldn't need or benefit from mash out. Before the enzymes have a chance to be denatured fully your sparge should be done and the wort a boil. Dump in your sparge water, stir well, and then drain. No waiting, no need for hot water.:rockin:

Heathen!

 

[Jim311]

I feel like there are some misconceptions about what's actually happening at various temperatures in this thread so I'm going to drop John Palmer's link here. It's one of the most important sections to read if you're new to all grain, and has sections on sparging too. Cheggit out.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/the-starch-conversion-saccharification-rest