First sour w/ 3278, yeast questions

[RPh_Guy]

What would be the best way to use some of the yeast from my "failed" batch, while still keeping that batch ?

I am not 100% confident that pulling a small sample will be able to capture the full mix of microbes, but your best bet is to swirl the fermenter a bit (if no pellicle has formed yet) and pull out a few ounces.
Purge with CO2 and/or top up with wort or beer.
Feed the sample some wort too, leave it to ferment for a couple days (covered like a starter), and then put in the fridge.

Whenever I get a new mixed culture it goes into my yeast ranch so I never need to pull from a previous batch like this.

Good luck. Cheers

 

[cactusgarrett]

Probably because of a too hot mash, husks accidentally slipping into the boil, and an overuse of hops.

I hope this works out for you. I have never heard of any of these actually contributing towards astringency. I know the husks-in-the-boil thing was a boogieman myth dispelled quite a while ago.

 

[yoop89]

Finally got this thing started this weekend! Ended up with three "main" beers, 5.5 gal @ 1.051: 1)WY3278 2)TYB Melange` 3)OYL VOSS Kviek/All the bretts. During the boil I gathered 6 gallons of "second" runnings @ 1.038 and added 1.5 lb of candi sugar to that and pitched TYB Almagation II that I had saved from a recent batch that I did for a local comp. Everythings bubbling away happily!

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's cool!

Keep in mind beer 3 (Sacc + Brett) and the second runnings beer (Brett only) won't become sour unless you add bacteria.

 

[yoop89]

That's cool!

Keep in mind beer 3 (Sacc + Brett) and the second runnings beer (Brett only) won't become sour unless you add bacteria.

That was my rationale with beer three, to use as a blending beer or to add some bacteria at a later date. Will it still sour a few months down the road if I decide to add something else to it? Or will it need some new sugars to chew up?

The second runnings beer wasnt given much though as I didnt think I was going to do it. At least its a good home for my brett as of now, right?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Will it still sour a few months down the road if I decide to add something else to it? Or will it need some new sugars to chew up?

Yeah you can sour it later if desired.
I've read that Pedio does need some sugar (wort, beer, or maltodextrin), but if Brett is still working that might be enough. It take take a couple months even at the low hop rate.

Yeah I think I have some amalgamation ii in the fridge. I should probably do something with that too.

Cheers

 

[yoop89]

Coming up on the one month mark and this project is tucked away happily in a dark corner of my "cellar". Got to thinking and was wondering if/when I should do tasting notes throughout the next year or does everyone just leave them alone for at least a year? I know its too early now but just checking to see if I should set a reminder for every 3 or 6 months?

 

[couchsending]

I’d say check it at 3 and 6. Just try to minimize your O2 exposure. Fill that thing right up to the neck and if you have Co2 it doesn’t hurt to add a bit after you pull your samples. You don’t want a Acetic acid to start to develop

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I have a lambic that has been fermenting since last November and I have only disturbed it to transfer for long-term storage. Besides the acetic acid worries I feel like if I taste it and its really good already I will compromise letting it age longer (i.e. want to package early etc.).

If you open her up the above advice is best.

 

[yoop89]

Ive got all three in ported better bottles so sampling is "too easy" i guess. Being my first sour batch Im interested in how they progress. I had planned on replacing the airlocks with something to seal them up after 2 or 3 months so I dont have to worry about my starsan drying up.

have a lambic that has been fermenting since last November and I have only disturbed it to transfer for long-term storage.

What was your reason for transferring? Minimize headspace? I had planned on leaving these in the 6 gallon better bottles for the entire year. Each fermenter has 5.5 gallons in it.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Nah just moved it to a glass carboy once the primary Sach fermentation was done about 3 weeks.

 

[yoop89]

Coming up on a full year in a few days! I have not touched any of the three main beers, only monitored airlocks to keep them from drying out and the occasional peek at the pellicle.

Now to the planning stage to get this carbonated. Whats everyone do? Bottle prime? Keg prime? Force Carb in keg?

 

[henchman24]

I do a mix of all of them depending on the situation. I always pull off 2-4 bottles that I individually prime (and throw in some yeast). I plan on aging those for years. Then transfer the rest to the keg. If I have a nice pipeline built up for my taps (3-4+ months worth), I'll prime and let sit in the keg until I'm ready to drink it. If I don't have that, I just force carb as I would any other beer. My culture has pediococcus (as does 3728) and I've had that get ropy a couple times before when priming. If you let it sit for a couple months it will almost surely go away, and I've never had it last longer than 3 (though it can). Force carbing reduces that risk if you need a quick turnaround.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Coming up on a full year in a few days! I have not touched any of the three main beers, only monitored airlocks to keep them from drying out and the occasional peek at the pellicle.

Now to the planning stage to get this carbonated. Whats everyone do? Bottle prime? Keg prime? Force Carb in keg?

I bottle carb with yeast from an "acid shock starter". This helps carbonate quickly and prevent THP.

 

[couchsending]

IMHO anything you long term age really should be bottle conditioned. That way you can hold onto bottles and have it continue to age over years. You always see brewers that release beers that have been bottle conditioning for extended periods of time. Plus it’s much easier to carbonate to higher carb levels in thick glass than try to serve that high carb out of a keg.

If it’s actually rather sour you’re going to want to research making a “terminal acid shock” Starter as has been mentioned. Trust me it’s well worth it. Works so crazy well. I’ve had 3.2pH beers fully carb in 7-10 days. I use Red Star champagne yeast or EC-1118. It takes a few more steps but it’s well worth it for something you’ve been patiently holding onto for 12 months.

 

[yoop89]

I bottle carb with yeast from an "acid shock starter". This helps carbonate quickly and prevent THP.

Do you use the same yeast that was in the ferment or a wine yeast? I read through a few MTF pages this weekend and it seemed people use both methods. If using a wine yeast you will not be able to use the dregs in the future if you choose to build up from a stored bottle, correct?

Also do you guys just cap or have you invested in cork/cage? Is it worth it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you use the same yeast that was in the ferment or a wine yeast? I read through a few MTF pages this weekend and it seemed people use both methods. If using a wine yeast you will not be able to use the dregs in the future if you choose to build up from a stored bottle, correct?

Also do you guys just cap or have you invested in cork/cage? Is it worth it?

Since 3278 is a blend, you can't really use just the primary Sacc in this case (unless you want to go through the trouble of isolating it).
Regardless, I've always used EC-1118 because it's highly aggressive and performs better with low pH compared to other strains.

You can still use the dregs in the future, just add it after primary fermentation completes. This is generally recommended anyway because many commercial breweries are using killer strains for bottle conditioning. Mixed fermentation dregs don't need to be "built up" because they generally shouldn't be used for primary fermentation.

I cap my bottles, even though I also have a floor corker. I don't see a reason to bother with corking.

 

[henchman24]

I'd say it depends on what on what you're trying to do with the dregs. Build up a whole new culture to pitch, or just add post primary fermentation? The wine yeast will certainly throw off the blend and if it is a killer yeast, it will probably kill the sacc that survived. If you're doing your mixed fermentation in stages, I'd say using wine yeast doesn't matter. If you're going to build up a new culture from it, be careful which yeast you use. I personally will use some wine yeast to get a re-pitch going again if I feel there is too long of a delay. I just use a non-killer strain and one that can create some expression for the brett to further convert. It can slightly change the flavor of the culture (for the better to me). I wouldn't build up from bottle dregs though, especially when you have a whole yeast cake at your disposal.

Having a yeast accustomed to acid does make a difference on bottle or keg conditioning. More consistent results with less of a chance of issues (though I fully admit that if beer just came off fruit, I'm not going through this step). You don't have to go crazy scientific for good results. Obviously more attention to detail and better methods can improve the process, but it can be done pretty easily with minimal work.

I cap the bottles I use. I'd only stray away if I was trying to be fancy and give it away as a gift. Even then I doubt I would put in the effort.

 

[brownni5]

I've used the plastic corks with some success. A bit more cost than caps, but nice for those 29mm bottles. Most of the times, those work great, but I have popped a few flat bottles. Not sure if it's the bottle or re-used plastic corks, but I think I'm done with those.