First cider - what to expect?

[whovous]

I just found some jugs of cider at Whole Foods - cloudy, no preservatives, and pasteurized. I've decided it is time to make my first cider. I have some pectic enzyme and Cider House Select yeast en route from Amazon. I have a conical fermenter, a temperature controlled fermentation chamber and I plan to keg.

Where should I go from here? Do I need to heat the cider? How many Campden tablets do I add and when? Do I let it ferment to completion or can I try to stop fermentation before it gets there? How long before I drink it? Finally, how much should I plan to lose to fermentation and clearing? I will be starting with 3.5 gallons of cider.

Oh yeah, the most important question of all: What else did I forget to ask?

[Correction: Cider is pasteurized, not unpasteurized]

 

[Maylar]

Don't heat the cider. Add 1 crushed Campden tab per gallon and wait a day before pitching. Pitch the yeast in room temp cider (68F) along with pectic enzyme (optional, but helps greatly in clearing). Once the lag phase is over and fermentation is underway, drop temp to 60-62 and let it go.

 

[whovous]

Thanks for the advice. If I start with 3.5 gallons, what should finish with after "trub" loss? And what is "trub" called in cider-speak?

Does exposure to light matter for cider like it does for beer? My Catalyst fermenter is clear, and I like the idea of being able to leave it at room temp for a few days to watch it bubble. I don't do that with my beer, it goes straight to the FC.

 

[MarkKF]

I start with 5-1/2 gal. And after primary have a little more than 5 gal. every time.
So I loose about 5-8%. Probably less.

 

[Maylar]

Thanks for the advice. If I start with 3.5 gallons, what should finish with after "trub" loss? And what is "trub" called in cider-speak?

Does exposure to light matter for cider like it does for beer? My Catalyst fermenter is clear, and I like the idea of being able to leave it at room temp for a few days to watch it bubble. I don't do that with my beer, it goes straight to the FC.

Trub in anything but beer is called "lees". Loss at racking is very variable, for me it's anything from 10 to 20%. I'd expect 3.5 gallons to be about 3 after racking.

Keep it out of the sunlight, but otherwise glass is fine. If it's in a sunny room I'll put a towel over the carboy, but in my basement I don't bother.

 

[diyHardCider]

Do I let it ferment to completion or can I try to stop fermentation before it gets there? How long before I drink it?

Sounds like you have good experience in brewing (good equipment and know-how)... many beginners ferment to dry, then backsweeten for priming sugar, sweetness (non-fermentable) and flavor (concentrated flavorings, etc). Most agree that stopping fermentation short of dry (thus keeping the original apple sugar and flavoring) is preferred (but harder to do).

Here's my advice....although it seems like you have it well under control

• If you don't want any sweetness... let it ferment to dry. Either backsweeten to 1.008 (for carbonation) and bottle, or manually carb, or drink still.
• If you want some sweetness and plan on kegging (or manually carbonating some other way, or drinking it still): Once the SG gets to 1.006 - 1.010 (or to your desired level of sweetness), do something to stop fermentation (cold crash + rack, cold crash and keep cold, or camden+potassium sorbate), let it age for as long as you have patience for (anywhere from a week to 6 months or so), then manually carbonate (in keg or otherwise).
• If you want some sweetness and want to bottle carb... this is a bit tougher. You could:
  • Ferment to dry, backsweeten for carbing (I suggest using frozen apple juice concentrate for the added apple flavor), add non-fermentable sweetener (xylitol, stevia, etc) for sweetness and bottle. Easy, but not always the best flavor.
  • Once SG is around 1.006 - 1.010, bottle and keep at room temperature for a few weeks to carb. Add sugar or sweetener in any form to each serving after the bottle is opened.
    
  • Once SG is around 1.015, bottle and keep at room temp to carb... after a few days, open a bottle every day or so to check carbonation level (some folks come up with fancier ways to check pressure without having to open one). Once it's carbed to your liking, cold crash in the bottle. DO NOT LET THESE SIT AT ROOM TEMP AFTER THEY ARE CARBED OR THEY WILL EXPLODE.
  • (Edit): Once SG is around 1.015, bottle and keep at room temp to carb... after a few days, open a bottle every day or so to check carbonation level (some folks come up with fancier ways to check pressure without having to open one). Once it's carbed to your liking, bottle pasteurize according to directions on the sticky post. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DO SO IF THEY ARE HIGHLY PRESSURIZED

 

[MindenMan]

The above post is very informative and well worded. Any cider with a slight amount of residual sweetness will taste more apple-y than a very dry cider. Bottle carbonating is easy as long as you don't want a sweet, carbed cider using fermentable sugar; it is all about timing as to when to pasteurize without creating bottle bombs. If you use a non-fermentable sweetener then you only need to prime and wait. By and large cider takes longer to carbonate than beer does; six weeks to carbonate is a rather common amount of time. There are some cider makers that cold crash to stop fermentation; the yeast I use does not allow that method to work. My current yeast will still ferment at 34*F and that is the exact temperature I use when making Ice Cider.

 

[diyHardCider]

There are some cider makers that cold crash to stop fermentation; the yeast I use does not allow that method to work.

Thanks...Edited and added 4th subpoint above to address this.... if cold doesn't work, go the other way

 

[BlackburnUSN]

I also found that post incredibly useful. I dont have the ability to cold crash in secondary so I planned on backsweetening it very lightly once its dry with AJC but very little of it.

 

[z-bob]

If you want a dry cider that still has some flavor to it, don't try to boost the alcohol too much with sugar. A couple of ounces per gallon is fine but don't go much beyond that or you'll lose all the apple.

Mott's, Kirkland, and Aldi filtered apple juice are good to experiment with. Find out what works, then you'll have a baseline for your fancy Whole Foods juice.

I recently started 3 gallons of apple juice on the yeast cake from a beer I'd just bottled. (K1V-1116 yeast) It smelled kinda farty when it got going; I added 2 teaspoons of yeast nutrient and the smell went away within hours.

 

[whovous]

Lots of great advice here, but that does not stop me from making mistakes! Here is what I've done so far after mis-remembering the advice I've been given.

I let the plastic bottles sit for eight days at room temp and ordered yeast and enzyme. Two of the bottles were a bit swollen and gassy when I opened them last night. All smelled OK to my uneducated (and old!) nose.

I poured 3.5 gallons of Whole Foods cider (pasteurized, no preservative and close to sell by date) into my fermenter and added pectic enzyme instead of adding Campden tablets. I am going to add the tablets later this morning. I assume I should still wait until tomorrow before pitching yeast.

I have an oxygen wand. Should I use it prior to pitching?
Since I added the enzyme early, should I add it again when I pitch?

I have not added any sugar and do not intend to do so. Maybe next time. I intend to keg. I have just ordered potassium sorbate and it should arrive tomorrow. I will monitor the gravity as best I can, but I will be away from Friday morning until late Saturday night. If I can I catch it in the proper range, I will cold crash it in my chest freezer FC and remove the lees from the bottom of my Catalyst conical after a few days and then add potassium sorbate and Campden tablets. I guess I need to figure out how much to add, but I have a few days to do that.

Am I on the right general track here? Once I do all of this, I want to keg the cider and put it away in a dark closet somewhere for a month or two. Does this make sense?

Cider seems like a lot less work that beer, but I am still well-capable of finding ways to mess things up!

 

[Drewed]

With unfiltered cider ( the cloudy stuff ) as a source juice there will a lot of lees. I don't get rid of all of mine, as there is a lot of apple-ly goodness in them and I don't mind a cloudy cider, and I kind of like a little yeasty taste - but thats me.

O2 before pitching wont hurt, but you could also splash a lot and add air that way. Normally you don't want to rush a cider ferment as that will "blow more flavor" out of the airlock. My ciders ferment for weeks to months, not days like beer.

"Making cider is easy, making good cider repeatedly is hard."

 

[diyHardCider]

@whovous - Sounds like a good plan... couple comments:

• You don't need to use camden pre-fermentation if you use pasteurized juice. The point is to kill/weaken wild yeast... but there is no wild yeast in pasteurized juice. But yes, if you use, wait 24 hours before pitching. (And you didn't do any harm by using in this case... as long as you wait to pitch yeast)
• Pectin Enzyme - I rarely use pectin enzyme when using store-bought juice... it's typically so clear anyways, plus I don't care if it's not. Can be used anytime, but pre-fermentation (12 hours after camden, 12 hours before yeast) is best.
• Oxygen is good prior to pitching... most people just shake it up a bit.
• "Cold Crashing + Racking" and chemicals (potassium sorbate and Campden tablets) accomplish the same thing (kill/weaken the yeast so it stops fermenting).... you wouldn't need to do both. If you don't mind the taste (which some say they leave), the chemicals are more predictable. If you use chemicals... one camden tablet and 1/2 teaspoon potassium sorbate per gallon (and/or check their labels!)
• If you miss the range you are wanting for finishing gravity, add a little apple juice concentrate to bring it back up

 

[whovous]

I came back with a new problem, and diyHardCider solved it before I posted it! It turns out I do not have any Campden tablets right now (or else I cannot find them, so same thing), but I do have 2 oz of Sodium Metabisulfite that I bought to try my hand at LODO brewing. Can I substitute SMB for the PMB tablets? At what rate?

I now understand that my pasteurized cider does not need tablets, but I am still trying to sort out stopping the ferment if I can catch it in the 1.006 to 1.010 range. diyHardCider says I can cold crash or use chemicals, while MindenMan says his yeast will still ferment at 34C. I am concerned that if I only cold crash and remove the lees, and then transfer to a keg and move to a closet for a month or two, then any residual yeast might return to life and dry out my cider.

Is it wrong to use both a cold crash and chemicals?

 

[diyHardCider]

I came back with a new problem, and diyHardCider solved it before I posted it! It turns out I do not have any Campden tablets right now (or else I cannot find them, so same thing), but I do have 2 oz of Sodium Metabisulfite that I bought to try my hand at LODO brewing. Can I substitute SMB for the PMB tablets? At what rate?

Is the Sodium Metabisulfite in tablet form? In general, 1 tablet per gallon or 1/4 tsp per 5-6 gallons for powder... Huge difference! Not sure about Sodium Metabisulfite tablets.

I now understand that my pasteurized cider does not need tablets, but I am still trying to sort out stopping the ferment if I can catch it in the 1.006 to 1.010 range. diyHardCider says I can cold crash or use chemicals, while MindenMan says his yeast will still ferment at 34C. I am concerned that if I only cold crash and remove the lees, and then transfer to a keg and move to a closet for a month or two, then any residual yeast might return to life and dry out my cider.

First, he said 34F (not C)... which I find amazing (would love to know what yeast is being used). the legend @CvilleKevin talks a lot about cold crashing in his sticky thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...uice-yeast-and-sugar-experiments.83060/page-3 ... he says he's done it with 100s of gallons with almost 100% success rate (1 incident involving wild yeast and 'aggressive' technique). If you doubt that cold crashing will work and want to use chemicals, that's fine.... not sure why you would want to cold crash in addition to that... maybe if your yeast doesn't settle out at 'normal' temps...

Is it wrong to use both a cold crash and chemicals?

Not wrong, just unnecessary


I'll be quiet and let others chime in

 

[S-Met]

I would expect your 1st cider to be awful, full of mistakes and thing you can dwell upon later and think of all of the improvements you will do next time.

Then pour yourself a glass after all is said and done and brace yourself for impact. After your first sip, you will think to yourself, "THIS ISN'T MY CIDER, IT DOESN'T TASTE LIKE ROTTEN FRUIT."

You will have to take another sip or even a few glasses to be sure but then you will realize that cider is so resilient that it practically makes itself.

Yes, people can make spectacular ciders, but even quick FAJC cider makes something palatable.

 

[whovous]

Is the Sodium Metabisulfite in tablet form? In general, 1 tablet per gallon or 1/4 tsp per 5-6 gallons for powder... Huge difference! Not sure about Sodium Metabisulfite tablets.


First, he said 34F (not C)... which I find amazing (would love to know what yeast is being used). the legend @CvilleKevin talks a lot about cold crashing in his sticky thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...uice-yeast-and-sugar-experiments.83060/page-3 ... he says he's done it with 100s of gallons with almost 100% success rate (1 incident involving wild yeast and 'aggressive' technique). If you doubt that cold crashing will work and want to use chemicals, that's fine.... not sure why you would want to cold crash in addition to that... maybe if your yeast doesn't settle out at 'normal' temps...


Not wrong, just unnecessary


I'll be quiet and let others chime in

The SMB is in powder form. I am totally unable to grasp how 1/4 tsp per 5-6 gallons in one form can equal one tablet per gallon in another form. But I guess I do not have to test this out if I cold crash and then keg, as you suggest.

Now if I can only figure out why I typed 34C instead of 34F...

I oxygenated, added yeast nutrient and pitched last night, and it was already bubbling happily a few hours later. OG was 1.054. Let's see if I can catch it between 1.006 and 1.010. Will be traveling a bit, so who knows?

 

[S-Met]

Tablet may have binding agents/fillers. Not all powders can stay compressed and hold shape without binders. Not certain though with smb.

34c vs 34f: "f" sits directly above "c" on a keyboard. Classic fat-finger maneuer?

 

[whovous]

Houston we have a mystery. I may get to a solution by the end.

I poured the cider into my Catalyst conical fermenter on Monday afternoon and added Pectin Enzyme. OG was 1.054. I pitched Brewers Best Cider House Yeast on Tuesday night. Around this time I lubed up a Mason jar, screwed it onto the bottom of the fermenter, and opened the valve. After a previous bad experience with a jar getting stuck on the fermenter, my practice I left the fermenter on the kitchen counter. This is not my usual practice, but my fermentation chamber was at 45F waiting for a keg to kick and I wanted to watch the fermenter bubble.

By Wednesday morning I had a fairly healthy blanket of krausen (if that is the right term with cider). Early yesterday evening it had started to drop. I gave the fermenter a healthy shake and it was not long until the rest of the blanket dropped. I thought it strange that I did not have any bubbles in my blow-off jar, but I decided cider must be different than beer. Curiously, I had only a very small layer of lees in the bottom of the Mason jar. I also had a tiny amount of cider on the counter. My sample valve drips occasionally, so I did not worry about it.

Perhaps I should have worried. My wife woke me up way too early this morning to tell me there was cider all over the kitchen. Uh-oh. A leak? How much did I lose?

When I got to the kitchen, I found the Mason jar on its' side on the kitchen counter under the fermenter. Now, this should have meant I lost all 3.5 gallons through the very large valve that connects to the Mason jar, but miraculously, the valve was closed! So, I lost a quart of cider, and got to cleaning up and trying to puzzle out what happened.

My best guess is this: The small amount of lees in the bottom of the jar the night before means the valve was already closed by last night. There should have been more in the jar by then. I don't remember closing it and I don't know why I'd do it, but nothing else makes any sense. Perhaps I closed it when checking for leaks when I spotted the tiny amount of cider on the counter the night before?

Oh, some more clues. Remember the bubble-free blow-off jar? It is now bubbling like a mo-fo. I did a gravity check thinking fermentation was done, but I found 1.042. The cider was a bit bubbly, so I am leaving the hydrometer in the cider for now. I figure I can knock it over by accident later. Anyway, the cider obviously has a ways to go.

I think the blanket of "krausen" that I got must have told me little about how fermentation was proceeding. The crazy rate of bubbling this morning means fermentation didn't really kick into high gear until sometime last night or early this morning.
The closed valve means I had a quart of cider fermenting crazily with absolutely nowhere to go for the CO2 from that quart. I don't really get the next part, but that build-up of pressure must have somehow unscrewed the jar from valve, causing it to drop off, tip over, and spill. This does not make complete sense to me, but nothing else seems to make any sense at all.

Meanwhile. I discovered my keg was just a few ounces from kicking, so I pulled the keg from the FC, reset the temp from 45 to 65, put a newly sanitized jar on the Catalyst, opened the valve, and moved the whole Catalyst and blow-off assembly to the FC.

Does all of this make sense? It definitely qualifies as weird in my book.

 

[diyHardCider]

So in summary: things were going pretty well... then your wife "checked on it" while you were sleeping and noticed a bunch of 'unexplainable' things had happened.

 

[whovous]

Ha!Ha!Ha!

Bit serially, I wish I could find a way to make this all her fault.

How long should this take to get down into the 1.010 to 1.006 range?

 

[diyHardCider]

Lots of variables, but could be as fast as 2-4 days to hit it.... How's it looking?

 

[whovous]

It was around 1.010 yesterday noon and tasted a bit, I don't know, funky or crab-appley. I don't have a cider vocab.

Last night I saw 1.007, or 8, and decided it was time to cold crash. This does not make a lot of sense, but the taste that annoyed me in the afternoon did not seem to be there at night. I am using a 1 qt Mason jar on the conical for lees and assume I will need to change it soon.