First Brew in a Bag attempt and not going as expected.

[ToddStark]

ok experts, I just attempted my first brew in a bag.
10 gal pot
4lb 12.8oz Great western two row
5lb 13.8oz white wheat malt
4.4oz crystal 40 malt

I started with 7.75 gal of water and ended with 7 gal.

Beer smith 2 indicated that I should be able to get pre boil gravity of 1.046. My readings at 148 deg was 1.025 (adjusted I come up with 1.035).

That seems like I am a long ways off. I have spare grain and a little DME. Should I be attempting to jack this up before my boil?

Is this how you calculate brew house efficiency? Cause if it is it would seem my brew house needs a ton of work.

 

[LittleRiver]

How were your grains crushed? If you got a "standard" crush from your local store or mail order supplier your efficiency may indeed come out low. In the short term you can sparge (if you planned for it, and reserved water for it), mash longer, or add some DME.

The solution is to get your own grain mill, and set it to a tight gap. I get great results with a .025" gap.

 

[sillbeer]

What was your gap on the crush?

Did you squeeze the bag or pour water through the bag to rinse any remaining sugars?

 

[Novacor]

I lose efficiency whenever I use wheat malt. My LHBS doesn't have their mill set tight enough for the smaller wheat kernels. I would imagine that with over half of your grain bill being white wheat, you're experiencing the same thing.

If you want the finished beer to have the recipe abv, add some dme. If you don't mind a beer with a lower abv, leave it like it is. It will still taste good.

 

[ToddStark]

I have my own mill(first time I have used it). I milled the grains 3 times, the last time was at the 0 setting. The first run through was at .032. I just went and checked and don't see a specific setting that says .025.

I used a pot lid to try and squeeze excess water out of the bag before I took my readings. I did not pour any water through the bag.

Things had cooled down enough that I did just now squeeze the bag and got a little more liquid out of the grains. (Chickens have the remains at this point so I can't do anything more with them this run). I haven't taken another hydro reading yet but have my doubts it would change much based on the amount of liquid I squeezed out.

I am not so much worried about alcohol. I would like to see it at least 3%, 4 -5% would be preferable.

Doesn't sound like anybody is saying just count it as lesson learned and dump it. Now that Novacor mentioned it I think I did read from others that Wheat tends to be less efficient.

The gravity will go up after the boil, correct? I am at 7gal now and was planning on being at 5.5 for the ferm bucket. Not sure why I have so much liquid at this point. Will prob be at least 1/2 gal of junk in bottom after boil so that will mean I need to boil off another full gallon?

 

[ToddStark]

I believe this was the picture of my grain after 3 run.

 

[ToddStark]

In the short term you can sparge (if you planned for it, and reserved water for it), mash longer, or add some DME

so for future reference if my pre boil OG is low, I can just mash at temp for longer period of time? I was at temp for 75 min and I thought I read someplace that generally you would have all the sugars extracted within 30 min normally?

 

[LittleRiver]

Your first post didn't say how long you mashed, so I was just throwing that out there as one thing you could think about. I generally mash for an hour (sometimes it's longer if I'm out running an errand), and have no problems hitting or exceeding the predicted OG.

 

[ToddStark]

so a surprising update on my part. Took another grav reading as I turned on heat to start my boil. I am up from 1.035 to 1.040. Only thing that I did was squeeze the grain bag and as I said above, I didn't really get much liquid from it (least I didn't think I did).

 

[ToddStark]

Your first post didn't say how long you mashed, so I was just throwing that out there as one thing you could think about. I generally mash for an hour (sometimes it's longer if I'm out running an errand), and have no problems hitting or exceeding the predicted OG.

Understood. Just trying to wrap my head around this process and I knew I would be omitting important information you guys would need to be able to help me. I appreciate your guidance...

 

[PADave]

Did you stir the wort before taking your gravity reading? I've found that sometimes I forget to stir when taking a preboil sample, and end up with a low number. But then after the boil the OG is right on target.

 

[sillbeer]

Sounds like you are doing everything right. I think after you get a few more BIAB brews under your belt you will have it down. It's just trial and error at this point and figuring out a solid process. Good luck.

 

[ToddStark]

Did you stir the wort before taking your gravity reading? I've found that sometimes I forget to stir when taking a preboil sample, and end up with a low number. But then after the boil the OG is right on target.

I don't think I did Dave. I know I stirred the grains before I pulled them out but I don't think I ever stirred the pot once they were removed.

 

[brewgar]

Todd, since wheat grains are a different size than barley, some like to grind wheat and barley separately. That would be easy enough for you to try on your next brew with wheat in the grain bill.

 

[ToddStark]

Todd, since wheat grains are a different size than barley, some like to grind wheat and barley separately. That would be easy enough for you to try on your next brew with wheat in the grain bill.

Agreed and an option I will add to my notes for my next attempt, thank you.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Will be interesting what you’re final gravity is?

Adjusting for temps as high as 150 may lead to error.

Best to chill your wort sample prior to taking readings, a large coffee cup stored in the freezer works well to chill a small sample.

Does the correction factor even go as high as 140-150?

 

[ToddStark]

Will be interesting what you’re final gravity is?

Adjusting for temps as high as 150 may lead to error.

Best to chill your wort sample prior to taking readings, a large coffee cup stored in the freezer works well to chill a small sample.

Does the correction factor even go as high as 140-150?

I used https://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/ and yes it seems to take what ever number I put in.
my OG going into the bucket will be 1.046. Beersmith had an est OG at 1.053

and another note on this brew is that I appear to have 6.5 gal in my kettle right now. so I think I messed up on water volume at start or something

 

[wilserbrewer]

Well if your 6.5 was boiled down to 5.5 gallons, you would be at 1.054...pretty close.

I suggest making a volume measuring stick for your kettle, or priceless BIAB calculator gives you volume if you enter dimensions of your pot.

 

[Lefou]

I lose efficiency whenever I use wheat malt. My LHBS doesn't have their mill set tight enough for the smaller wheat kernels. I would imagine that with over half of your grain bill being white wheat, you're experiencing the same thing.

If you want the finished beer to have the recipe abv, add some dme. If you don't mind a beer with a lower abv, leave it like it is. It will still taste good.

This is exactly why I turn my wheat malt to a near flour consistency. It actually goes into a food processor.
I used to have the local brewshop grind my grain prior to brewing, but got some low efficiency and poor numbers from wheat beers. It took me a few brews to realize I was getting a poor mash efficiency because my wheat was too coarse.
A finer crush on my wheat improved the mash AND the beer, definitely.

 

[PADave]

and another note on this brew is that I appear to have 6.5 gal in my kettle right now. so I think I messed up on water volume at start or something

I'd say that you started with a little too much water. For that amount of grain, I would have used about 7.4-7.5 gallons of water to end up with 5.5 gallon into the fermenter. But you are close, can't expect to hit your numbers exactly the first time using a new system. Do a couple more brews, take careful measurements and good notes, and you'll have things dialed in pretty quickly.

 

[doug293cz]

ok experts, I just attempted my first brew in a bag.
10 gal pot
4lb 12.8oz Great western two row
5lb 13.8oz white wheat malt
4.4oz crystal 40 malt

I started with 7.75 gal of water and ended with 7 gal.

Beer smith 2 indicated that I should be able to get pre boil gravity of 1.046. My readings at 148 deg was 1.025 (adjusted I come up with 1.035).

That seems like I am a long ways off. I have spare grain and a little DME. Should I be attempting to jack this up before my boil?

Is this how you calculate brew house efficiency? Cause if it is it would seem my brew house needs a ton of work.

For 10.94 lb of grain mashed in 7.75 gal, I also get a mash wort SG of 1.046 at 100% conversion efficiency. If you don't sparge at all (as you didn't) then your pre-boil SG will be the same as your mash wort SG. A mash wort SG of 1.035 for your grain bill represents a conversion efficiency of about 74%. If your second reading of 1.040 was correct, then your conversion efficiency was about 85% - 86%. 74% conversion efficiency is terrible, and 85% is not very good. Low conversion efficiency could be due to lots of uncrushed wheat kernels, as others have mentioned. Achieving 100% conversion is possible if all your mash conditions are optimal, and 95% should be achievable without too much difficulty.

Your pre-boil volume of 7 gal puts your grain absorption rate at 0.069 gal/lb which is reasonable for a squeezed BIAB process, and your lauter efficiency was about 84% - 85%, which is good for a no-sparge process. Mash efficiency would be 63% for the 1.035 case and 72% in the 1.040 case.

If you stir the mash well prior to starting run-off, then stirring the wort in the BK in order to get an accurate pre-boil SG is only necessary if you sparge, or add water directly to the BK.

Brewhouse efficiency is equal to mash efficiency * fermenter volume / post-boil volume [in BK], so will always be less than or equal to the mash efficiency.

Brew on

 

[ToddStark]

For 10.94 lb of grain mashed in 7.75 gal, I also get a mash wort SG of 1.046 at 100% conversion efficiency. If you don't sparge at all (as you didn't) then your pre-boil SG will be the same as your mash wort SG. A mash wort SG of 1.035 for your grain bill represents a conversion efficiency of about 74%. If your second reading of 1.040 was correct, then your conversion efficiency was about 85% - 86%. 74% conversion efficiency is terrible, and 85% is not very good. Low conversion efficiency could be due to lots of uncrushed wheat kernels, as others have mentioned. Achieving 100% conversion is possible if all your mash conditions are optimal, and 95% should be achievable without too much difficulty.

Your pre-boil volume of 7 gal puts your grain absorption rate at 0.069 gal/lb which is reasonable for a squeezed BIAB process, and your lauter efficiency was about 84% - 85%, which is good for a no-sparge process. Mash efficiency would be 63% for the 1.035 case and 72% in the 1.040 case.

If you stir the mash well prior to starting run-off, then stirring the wort in the BK in order to get an accurate pre-boil SG is only necessary if you sparge, or add water directly to the BK.

Brewhouse efficiency is equal to mash efficiency * fermenter volume / post-boil volume [in BK], so will always be less than or equal to the mash efficiency.

Brew on

thank you very much Doug. The math and the explanation of it is very helpful.

 

[Holy_Grail_Reference]

Personally (and I have not see it listed here) I always add an amylase enzyme to my BIAB to ensure that any excess starches are converted that the heat of the water does not fully cure.

 

[Lefou]

For drier beers, I will add extra powdered amylase and extend the mash. It speeds conversion and is great for lighter SRM beers accentuating hops. Extra amylase really isn't needed if your grain bill has plenty of base malt and you have your methods down for the style you want.
For an all malt beer with less diastatic potential a few adjustments can be made in methods based on personal preferences.

 

[doug293cz]

Personally (and I have not see it listed here) I always add an amylase enzyme to my BIAB to ensure that any excess starches are converted that the heat of the water does not fully cure.

For drier beers, I will add extra powdered amylase and extend the mash. It speeds conversion and is great for lighter SRM beers accentuating hops. Extra amylase really isn't needed if your grain bill has plenty of base malt and you have your methods down for the style you want.
For an all malt beer with less diastatic potential a few adjustments can be made in methods based on personal preferences.

The rate limiting step in the mash is gelatinization. The amylase enzymes cannot do anything with the starch until the starch molecules are individually surrounded by water (which is what gelatinization is.) Once the starch is gelatinized, conversion to sugar proceeds very rapidly. Gelatinization proceeds from the surface towards the center of the grits, so the larger the grits (coarser the crush) the longer it takes to gelatinize, and the longer it takes the mash to complete.

In cases where the amylase enzymes are denatured before gelatinization complete, then adding more amylase late in the mash can be helpful. Added amylase can also be helpful if you have lots of low or zero diastatic power components in your mash.

You need to be careful with your choice of amylase to use, as some, such as Amylo 300, can also break the branching bonds in dextrins. If you use an amylase that can break down dextrins, then all of the starch can be converted to fermentable sugars, and you can actually end up with FG's of 1.000 or even less.

Brew on

 

[Lefou]

I've always assumed the powdered amylase available from LD Carlson in many brew shops is beta amylase. The calculator I use is Brewers Friend and it gives a rough estimate of diastatic potential for each malt and shows a result for the finished recipe itself.
On lighter ales I rarely bother with iodine tests to verify conversion.

 

[doug293cz]

I've always assumed the powdered amylase available from LD Carlson in many brew shops is beta amylase. The calculator I use is Brewers Friend and it gives a rough estimate of diastatic potential for each malt and shows a result for the finished recipe itself.
On lighter ales I rarely bother with iodine tests to verify conversion.

I have found the information provided about just what amylase enzyme is in any particular product to woefully inadequate in most instances. Is it alpha, beta, a mix, or something else? This missing information is important, as the exact type of enzyme can have a huge effect on the final results.

Neither alpha nor beta amylase can break the branching bonds in dextrins, so cannot create completely fermentable sugar profiles. Limit dextrinase can break the branching bonds, so in combination with alpha and/or beta could produce completely fermentable wort, but this doesn't happen because limit dextrinase denatures at temperatures slightly below where beta denatures.

Brew on

 

[whiskeyjack]

One thing you can do to prevent to much water is removing 1-2 gallons from the mash water prior to mashing and with that have it heated in a smaller pot. Then lift the grains and do a rinse until you get exactly how much water you need. It eliminates the need to be dead on, on your water need calculations, as long as you know your boil off. Have a measuring stick marked off for 6.5g or whatever you need to start your boil.

 

[Nmnbrewer]

I used https://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/ and yes it seems to take what ever number I put in.
my OG going into the bucket will be 1.046. Beersmith had an est OG at 1.053

and another note on this brew is that I appear to have 6.5 gal in my kettle right now. so I think I messed up on water volume at start or something

So your preboil volume was 7 gal and your post boil volume was 6.5? Was that before or after chilling?

 

[ToddStark]

So your preboil volume was 7 gal and your post boil volume was 6.5? Was that before or after chilling?

this was after I had already cooled it down to dump into the bucket.

 

[PADave]

this was after I had already cooled it down to dump into the bucket.

Wow, that's not boiling off much. Was the wort even at a boil? Also, going back to post #1, your .75 gal lost to grain absorption is a lot. Did you squeeze the bag? If not, how long did you let it drain?

 

[ToddStark]

yup, was a good boil.
Yup, bag was suspended for about 10 min draining as I pushed down on grains with a pot lid. Took my first reading and found I was short of target so I re-submerged the grain sack and tea bagged it a little then pulled it out again to drain and pot lid squeeze again. Once cooled down enough, I then squeezed with hands and got tiny bit more out.

 

[doug293cz]

yup, was a good boil.
Yup, bag was suspended for about 10 min draining as I pushed down on grains with a pot lid. Took my first reading and found I was short of target so I re-submerged the grain sack and tea bagged it a little then pulled it out again to drain and pot lid squeeze again. Once cooled down enough, I then squeezed with hands and got tiny bit more out.

Your boil-off volume was kind of low (0.5 / 7 = 7%) but should have been enough that you won't have excessive DMS.

Your grain absorption of 0.75 gal was not high, as your rate was 0.069 gal/lb, which is fairly typical for a moderate squeeze.

Resubmerging the bag in the original wort will not gain anything. It's like trying to rinse dishes by putting them back in the soapy water. If you got more wort on the second try, it's only because you drained/squeezed better. You can get more sugar out of the grain by dipping the bag in fresh water (doesn't even have to be hot). Works best if you squeeze the bag first, then put in water, open the bag, and stir like crazy for 5 minutes, or so. Finally drain and squeeze again.

Brew on

 

[eulipion2]

I have my own mill(first time I have used it). I milled the grains 3 times, the last time was at the 0 setting. The first run through was at .032. I just went and checked and don't see a specific setting that says .025.

Hey, ToddStark, I just found this thread. I notice that nobody commented on the mill gap setting. So depending on your mill you'll probably have the one setting marked. To adjust your mill gap you'll want to use feeler gauges like you'd use for adjusting spark plug gaps. They're usually pretty cheap, just make sure you have a set that has a .025" gauge. Here's one that's an Amazon add-on item for under $4 (with $25 purchase), but there are a bunch of others on Amazon, Ebay, or probably at your local auto store.

Just loosen the screws that secure your rollers, stick the gauge between them, and tighten each end to the thickness of the gauge, tighten the screws, and you're good to go.

 

[ToddStark]

Hey, ToddStark, I just found this thread. I notice that nobody commented on the mill gap setting. So depending on your mill you'll probably have the one setting marked. To adjust your mill gap you'll want to use feeler gauges like you'd use for adjusting spark plug gaps. They're usually pretty cheap, just make sure you have a set that has a .025" gauge. Here's one that's an Amazon add-on item for under $4 (with $25 purchase), but there are a bunch of others on Amazon, Ebay, or probably at your local auto store.

Just loosen the screws that secure your rollers, stick the gauge between them, and tighten each end to the thickness of the gauge, tighten the screws, and you're good to go.

Thanks Eulipion, I will definitely look into getting a gauge and verify where my gap is set. Bet I can go down to my local autozone and pick one up.