Figuring out my hop additions and IBUS.

[dirtyb15]

So... still trying to figure out the best time to do my hop additions. I have been brewing mostly pales and ipas for the last year and i am getting close to being happy enough with them to move on to a new style . Early on everything was coming out way way too bitter. (Even sent a pale ale in to be judged and every judge said too bitter.) So first i got a water test and turns out i had very high minerals in my water so i invested in a RO system. That helped a little, but still all of my beers were more bitter than I expected. Eventually someone suggested using a hop bag and removing at the end of the boil in case the late hop additions were adding IBUs because i was not able to cool the wort fast enough. (It does take me about 45 min to transfer through my counterflow chiller.) That seemed to be the ticket and bitterness has been as expected since then. Lately i have just been doing 60 min, and 20 min additions then dryhopping. From what i have read though most people don't have this problem and I'm wondering why I do. I also have not been doing any flame out hops, just dry hopping. Id like to do some flame out additions, but seems pointless if i am just pulling the bag out shortly after. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[BigMack]

If you do all grain brewing I would definitely try doing FWH instead of 60 minute additions. I've started doing that and I think it definitely provides a better and more rounded bitterness to my brews. I would also definitely do flameout additions, or at the very least move those 20 minute additions a little later. I personally just dump my flameout additions in without a bag and I have not experienced a harsh bitterness from them.

 

[dirtyb15]

If you do all grain brewing I would definitely try doing FWH instead of 60 minute additions. I've started doing that and I think it definitely provides a better and more rounded bitterness to my brews. I would also definitely do flameout additions, or at the very least move those 20 minute additions a little later. I personally just dump my flameout additions in without a bag and I have not experienced a harsh bitterness from them.

I forgot to mention, I have been doing FWH as well. So maybe push the 20 min to 10 or 15? I would like to do some flame out additions again just afraid that's where the bitterness was coming from.

 

[dmtaylor]

There are a lot of things that could cause excessive bitterness. First of all, how do you calculate your IBUs? Do you use software? Which one? What formula does it use? The Tinseth method is most accurate.

Contrary to popular belief, FWH actually adds about an extra 10% IBUs compared to a standard 60-minute hop addition, and most likely does not generate the "smooth bitterness" that everyone talks about. Maybe stop doing that!?

Also, are you familiar with something called the BU:GU ratio? This is a ratio of the IBUs to the specific gravity points (i.e., the digits after the 1.0, so for example 1.055 has 55 gravity points). The BU:GU ratio will be anywhere from about 0.2 for low hopped styles to 1.0-1.1 or more for very bitter styles, with 0.5 being middle of the road. If your BU:GU ratio is much higher than 0.5 then consider whether you're just using too much hops!

I have developed the following rough calculation for different hop additions; it roughly follows the Tinseth formula, with a couple of simplifications. These rules are designed for pellet hops used in 5 gallons final boil volume, 60-minute boil, @ approximately 1.060 OG.

3.6 * oz * AA% = IBUs from bittering hops added @ about 60 minutes left in the boil
1.6 * oz * AA% = IBUs from flavor additions @ 10-15 minutes
0.6 * oz * AA% = IBUs from aroma @ 5 minutes

Add all these together, and then add another +1.5 to the final total to get the final grand total IBUs.

For different batch volumes (V) other than 5 gallons, you need to multiply the result by 5/V. If you use whole hop cones, then multiply your final result by 0.9 (a.k.a., 90%).

Maybe you just need to use fewer 60-minute hops or put more in the last 10 minutes of the boil.

Also ensure your water's not too hard and you're not adding too much sulfate.

Good luck!

 

[slym2none]

Contrary to popular belief, FWH actually adds about an extra 10% IBUs compared to a standard 60-minute hop addition, and most likely does not generate the "smooth bitterness" that everyone talks about.

Interesting. Brewer's Friend gives brews a decrease in IBUs using FWH versus a 60-minute addition. I always thought that was a bit weird...

 

[dirtyb15]

There are a lot of things that could cause excessive bitterness. First of all, how do you calculate your IBUs? Do you use software? Which one? What formula does it use? The Tinseth method is most accurate.
:

thanks for the reply!

I use brewtarget. I compared the IBU calculations with Beersmith and they were pretty similar. I did have extremely hard water, that is why i got the RO system. I have not had it tested the water again, but i have a cheap TDS meter and the RO system seems to be working extremely well.

I tried so many different things but taking the hop bag out at flame out was the only thing that worked. Brewing a batch this weekend and thought i could experiment again. Here is the recipe i was gonna try... But again, i would prefer to try some flameout hops as well as the dry hop.. Any suggestions?

PineyIPA-1-30-16 - American IPA (14B)Brewer	
Date	
Batch Size	9.000 gal	Boil Size	10.250 gal
Boil Time	60.000 min	Efficiency	68%
OG	1.068	FG	1.017
ABV	6.7%	IBU	57.3 (Tinseth)
Color	8.0 srm (Morey)	Calories (per 12 oz.)	227
Fermentables
Total grain: 27.000 lbName	Type	Amount	Mashed	Late	Yield	Color
Rahr - 2 Row Malt	Grain	25.000 lb	Yes	No	80%	2.0 srm
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L	Grain	2.000 lb	Yes	No	75%	30.0 srm
Hops
Name	Alpha	Amount	Use	Time	Form	IBU
Magnum	13.5%	1.000 oz	Boil	60.000 min	Pellet	20.8
Chinook	13.0%	1.500 oz	Boil	20.000 min	Pellet	18.2
Simcoe	13.0%	1.500 oz	Boil	20.000 min	Pellet	18.2
Chinook	13.0%	2.500 oz	Dry Hop	0.000 s	Pellet	0.0
Simcoe	13.0%	2.000 oz	Dry Hop	0.000 s	Pellet	0.0
Yeast
Name	Type	Form	Amount	Stage
WLP001 - California Ale Yeast	Ale	Liquid	2.367 tbsp	Primary
Mash
Name	Type	Amount	Temp	Target Temp	Time
mashbatch	Infusion	8.438 gal	168.820 F	152.600 F	0.000 s
Final Batch Sparge	Infusion	5.322 gal	194.680 F	165.200 F	15.000 min

 

[BigMack]

Contrary to popular belief, FWH actually adds about an extra 10% IBUs compared to a standard 60-minute hop addition, and most likely does not generate the "smooth bitterness" that everyone talks about. Maybe stop doing that!?

I know it increases the IBUs, but in my experience I have felt the bitterness is less harsh. I have read experiments coming down on both sides of the issue. I was just suggesting what has worked for me. To each their own though. Cheers.

 

[pdxal]

Are you adjusting hop alpha acid levels, or just using default settings? Magnum and chinook can run much higher than 13.5% and 13.0%, for example. Are your other numbers hitting what brewtarget predicts? If your FG is lower the beer might taste more bitter.

 

[dirtyb15]

Are you adjusting hop alpha acid levels, or just using default settings? Magnum and chinook can run much higher than 13.5% and 13.0%, for example. Are your other numbers hitting what brewtarget predicts? If your FG is lower the beer might taste more bitter.

Yeah, i will adjust once i pick up my hops, just dont have them yet

I usually get pretty close to my OG/FG

 

[dmtaylor]

Consider moving your 60-minute addition to 15-20 minutes, and increasing the amount slightly to make up for the lower time. This is known as hopbursting and will result in more hop flavor and less harsh bitterness.

Also Chinook and Simcoe are known to cause a harsher bitterness than other hops (cohumulone content). For the 20-minute additions, consider changing a portion of these to some other more tame American hop such as maybe Cascade or Centennial.

Also, for the best hop flavors, most of those 20-minute additions could/should probably be moved to whirlpool additions instead, where you basically add at flameout and then allow to sit warm for 20 minutes before chilling. Without chilling right away you will still get some bitterness from whirlpool additions, but it's only as if you had boiled them for about half the time, so for calculation purposes, treat your 20-minute whirlpool hops as if they were boiled for 10 minutes (or 30 changes to 15, etc.). The optimum amount for IPAs based on much research by commercial breweries is 0.5 to 0.75 oz per gallon. So for 9 gallons you need about 4.5 to 6.5 oz whirlpool hops. Same goes for dry hops.

Cheers.