Feud between my two local breweries

[fj605]

Non-compete clause in an employment contract could prevent it.

I'd rather drink "ok" beer with good people than the "best beer ever" with not good people.

 

[Punity]

Non-compete clause in an employment contract could prevent it.

I'd rather drink "ok" beer with good people than the "best beer ever" with not good people.

It could but i think that is a rarity in our industry. Not awhole lot you can do that is game changing when it comes to brewing that isnt being done but hundreds of others.

 

[gbx]

I think every town now has at least one hipster craft beer snob brewery. The beers have great reviews but they seem to have missed the whole point of why people drink beer: to have a good time. The place has no atmosphere as its 90%+ dudes and nobody is talking, just sipping from their paddle of 4oz samples and while on their phones posting their reviews to ratebeer.

 

[Punity]

I understand stuff like untappd and ratebeer is a necessary evil that is bestowed upon us brewers, although it is a great tool for me to see how my beers are doing and if i can tweak things, but my god its frustrating to be working the taps and literally have not a one person talk to you for a solid 10 minutes because they are just sucked into their phones rather then engaging me to MAYBE learn about the beers......sorry i get testy when i now feel awkward in my own taproom because im standing there in silence watching other people tap tap tap away haha,.

 

[iijakii]

I am interested to see if theres any lawsuit development. I guess you really cant patent a recipe, but from what I was told, it was the also the label design and name that was in question.

On the other hand, every engineering position ive had to sign a non-disclosure agreement when hired. Im guessing this doesnt really apply as much here, but whats to stop brewers from leaving a commercial brewery and just taking any winning recipes with them, regardless of whether they were the one that developed the recipes. I figure its more of a honor code thing?

I think a lot of it is personality and wanting to make recipes based off of your take on things. But with that said, most recipes are so damn close. Your great IPA that's a whopping 95% 2-row isnt exactly unique

 

[Hello]

yeah maybe shouldve changed my location haha

well looks like a general consensus here. Just feels weird since I liked going to the 2nd one more initially. They got a leg up in popularity and I guess it went to their heads...still wouldnt want to see them tank though

Why would you protect them at all? Exception being that your story appears more observational and perhaps with a small side of hearsay. Bottom line is go to the brewery that makes you happy. I went to a brewery here and the staff were absolutely rude. Turns out they were the owners and I never returned. I won't return because take rude staff and sub-par beer and you have a recipe for me to never show face there again. They're not bothered by it, nor am I.

 

[drainbamage]

Why would you protect them at all? Exception being that your story appears more observational and perhaps with a small side of hearsay. Bottom line is go to the brewery that makes you happy.

+1

Assuming the stories are true, the only reason I see to defend #2 is if OP doesn't want to burn bridges for a potential brewing job in the future.

(And indeed, it may be that the former head brewer @ #2 was the loose cannon, and the brewery had the good sense to give him the boot because he didn't represent the same values they supported. The rest of the staff could be fine.)

I'm all for supporting the local guys, but if they're jerks, I can happily pass.

 

[knash3]

Simple solution: Pints at #1, growlers from #2 at home. Re the advice "stay away from the drama", why? It's sorta the beer version of dinner theater.
We can't expect every brewery to treat us like fellow members of the local homebrewer club - they're running a business. Great if they do, no surprise if they don't.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

I know of a very familiar situation where there was a brewery (brewery A) who employed a head brewer. The owner told the head brewer what kind of beers to make, and he made them. Until eventually they just clashed too much and the brewer couldn't take it and he left.

When he left, the ex-brewer opened a brewery - Brewery B. They were opened in the same town, about 5 miles from each other.

Brewery A is very eccentric: crazy crazy beers with strange stuff in them, and just in a very different environment. Pinball tables, foosball, darts, chalkboards, pacman games, etc everywhere.

Brewery B focuses on the ingredients they put in each beer and growing things on site at the brewery. It's more like a farmhouse environment and very reserved.

I understand A and B still don't get along at all, but they do their own thing and they have their own crowds. Yeah, they DEFINITELY have their own crowds. For me, A was fun to go to the first time but I won't go back after my second time just because I don't care for the beer and the environment. I like B because the beer is made really well and I like the environment.

Just thought I'd share since it's very similar. And hopefully no one knows which two breweries I'm talking about haha

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I am interested to see if theres any lawsuit development. I guess you really cant patent a recipe, but from what I was told, it was the also the label design and name that was in question.

On the other hand, every engineering position ive had to sign a non-disclosure agreement when hired. Im guessing this doesnt really apply as much here, but whats to stop brewers from leaving a commercial brewery and just taking any winning recipes with them, regardless of whether they were the one that developed the recipes. I figure its more of a honor code thing?

Recipes aren't patentable or copyrightable, but they can still be considered intellectual property and thus a "trade secret".

An example would be KFC's secret blend of herbs and spices. If it were patentable, if Popeye's Chicken honestly created a blend that just happened to be identical, or if they reverse-engineered the recipe based on flavor, they *still* couldn't sell chicken using that blend. But it's not patentable, so in that case they could. An example of this would be President's Choice Cola, which I find absolutely indistinguishable from Coca-Cola. They likely used tasting panels to reverse-engineer a drink that tastes identical. That's fine in this case, but wouldn't be find if recipes were patentable.

However, if Popeye's paid off a KFC employee to get a hold of the secret blend, KFC would absolutely have grounds for suing the employee (for violating confidentiality) and I believe would have grounds for suing Popeye's and likely even getting a court order stopping them from using the recipe. A trade secret is considered defensible intellectual property. A trade secret can be reverse-engineered with impunity, but it cannot be stolen or misappropriated and exploited in other ways.

Because the brewer in question was likely in possession of recipes and methods specific to his previous employers, he exposed himself and probably his new employer to legal action by using those recipes or methods elsewhere.

Label designs and names are even more of a clear-cut case than recipes, though. That's clearly trademark infringement if he copied or imitated those items from previous jobs.

 

[joshesmusica]

Well, I'm sure moops wanted to not necessarily mention names because he seems like a nice guy.

But I agree with the others on a couple of things:
1) Since you like all the IPAs and saisons and craziness from the one, you might as well just buy some to drink at home. After all, it's still craft beer, and supporting any craft beer is a worthy cause in my opinion.
2) The below average beer you can help make better. The below average personality will likely never fix itself.

 

[MaxStout]

It could but i think that is a rarity in our industry. Not awhole lot you can do that is game changing when it comes to brewing that isnt being done but hundreds of others.

They are more common than you think. The non-compete agreement (NCA) is generally used to prevent an employee from leaving and working for a competitor within a certain geographical area and time frame. Courts will invalidate a NCA that is too broad or restrictive of a person's right to practice his profession. They are typically upheld if the NCA's terms are 2 years or less and it covers a local area. Thus, an employer can use the NCA to prevent the employee from taking a job in a similar capacity in the same town or within a reasonable radius, for a period of up to 2 years after leaving that employer. A NCA can also be used to protect the buyer of a business, to ensure that the seller doesn't open up a competing business in the area.

Employers often include a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) when hiring. This prevents an employee from disclosing information related to company business, such as customer lists, financial data, trade secrets and other IP, processes, etc. The NDA is enforceable during and after employment, and usually has no timeout; it is enforced permanently. Businesses will also require execution of a NDA with contractors, vendors, consultants, etc.--anyone who might be given access to confidential business information.

Employers often put both the NCA and NDA language together in an employment document.

 

[Punity]

I was talking specifically about the brewing industry Im still under an NCA from my previous job before I quit to brew full time.

 

[fuzzy2133]

Sounds like #1 was a brewery opened by the brewer or someone who is a brewing enthusiast.
Brewery #2 sounds like a business venture opened by someone who is not a brewer (hired a brewer) and they run it like it's a cutthroat business.

This is what I was thinking too. Most issues with company's culture stem from the owners/leaders and it can kill a business. That may be what's going in behind the scene at #2.

 

[m00ps]

So for anyone that is interested in the whole backstory....
#1 was the first planned brewery in my town. They were originally supposed ot be at the location of #2, but the owner of the building decided it would not be worth it to open a brewery. So the brewer of #1 was forced to find more funding and another location and proceeded to renovate it.

A few months later, the owner of the large building #2 is in (there are now other shops there too) decides he does in fact want to give a brewery a shot and hires a brewmaster.

So #1 is both the brewmaster and owner and #2 is just the brewmaster. That may be why they are much more cut-throat. But also explains why there is tension between the two from the beginning

 

[SharonaZamboni]

I understand stuff like untappd and ratebeer is a necessary evil that is bestowed upon us brewers, although it is a great tool for me to see how my beers are doing and if i can tweak things, but my god its frustrating to be working the taps and literally have not a one person talk to you for a solid 10 minutes because they are just sucked into their phones rather then engaging me to MAYBE learn about the beers......sorry i get testy when i now feel awkward in my own taproom because im standing there in silence watching other people tap tap tap away haha,.

Maybe the patrons of your tap room don't realize it's Your beer, or they're a bit too shy to talk, or whatever. I'll keep your comments in mind, though, next time I visit a small tap room. It never really occurred to me that the brewer would want my questions or comments.

 

[Punity]

Maybe the patrons of your tap room don't realize it's Your beer, or they're a bit too shy to talk, or whatever. I'll keep your comments in mind, though, next time I visit a small tap room. It never really occurred to me that the brewer would want my questions or comments.

I actually get that question a lot of do you make the beer.....but we are super small also not a lot of employees 3 actually haha....I just look at it like we on here complain all the time about I'll informed servers at breweries....for most people I'm not one to bug you but if you come into my place and sit on your phone rating my beer and ignore me or fail to ask any questions about it....it's just an uncomfortable feeling I get standing behind like bar....like I said super small 15 people would make the taproom feel cramped...and yea I could just leave and go hangout in the back but what kind of service is that? I don't know just a small pet peeve of mine....my favorite customers are the ones who come in and tell me they don't like this this and this....my mind is challenge accepted!!

 

[Paps]

So for anyone that is interested in the whole backstory....
#1 was the first planned brewery in my town. They were originally supposed ot be at the location of #2, but the owner of the building decided it would not be worth it to open a brewery. So the brewer of #1 was forced to find more funding and another location and proceeded to renovate it.

A few months later, the owner of the large building #2 is in (there are now other shops there too) decides he does in fact want to give a brewery a shot and hires a brewmaster.

To`me`, this reads.......
"Brewery #1 wanted to open up where #2 now currently is because the owner of the building (and also brewery #2) is a total backstabbing ********* and fed #1`s owner a line of **** about using his building for a brewey and later on wanted to use #1`s idea to take all of the business $$ away from #1"

It's probably for the better though as now the owner of #1 isn't under the thumb of the owner of #2 (due to owning the building the 1 brewery `would` have been in)

After hearing this i'd not go to #2 at all. **** it's owner in the a$$hole with a cactus sideways.

 

[Mouse]

To`me`, this reads.......
"Brewery #1 wanted to open up where #2 now currently is because the owner of the building (and also brewery #2) is a total backstabbing ********* and fed #1`s owner a line of **** about using his building for a brewey and later on wanted to use #1`s idea to take all of the business $$ away from #1"

It's probably for the better though as now the owner of #1 isn't under the thumb of the owner of #2 (due to owning the building the 1 brewery `would` have been in)

After hearing this i'd not go to #2 at all. **** it's owner in the a$$hole with a cactus sideways.

I was thinking along the same lines, also it feels to me that #1 cares about the craft, #2 cares about publicity and $$. A place I wouldn't give the time of day.

 

[orangehero]

Oops.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...ewer-Needed-Dry-Ground-Brewing-Co-(Paducah-Ky)

 

[joshesmusica]

So for anyone that is interested in the whole backstory....
#1 was the first planned brewery in my town. They were originally supposed ot be at the location of #2, but the owner of the building decided it would not be worth it to open a brewery. So the brewer of #1 was forced to find more funding and another location and proceeded to renovate it.

A few months later, the owner of the large building #2 is in (there are now other shops there too) decides he does in fact want to give a brewery a shot and hires a brewmaster.

So #1 is both the brewmaster and owner and #2 is just the brewmaster. That may be why they are much more cut-throat. But also explains why there is tension between the two from the beginning

WOW! You should've led with that... With that knowledge, I would say never, ever, give your business to Dry Ground. It seems that the guys from PBW likely pitched a very good business plan and showed how quickly the town would flock to craft beer, and the owner from Dry Ground took it and ran with it. Unfortunately, DGB seems to have way more money and business expertise. Their advertising looks better, their publicity stunts seem to be better (I'm sorry but I'm not all that convinced that getting into a magazine, especially on the cover, is simply because of being good at your craft. Most magazines nowdays sell "story" space that is essentially advertising with the guise of neat story), and even their website looks more professional.

I think you really gotta get behind PBW and help show them how to do things right. Just to stick it to ******** like the DGB owner. Although if the idea that ******** higher *********s holds true, maybe his headbrewers will continue to ruin his reputation.

I wonder if any of us craft beer, microbrewery loving people on here could help propel Paducah Beer Werks forward with some kind of professional help; i.e. website help, productive publicity stunts, better marketing schemes, successful brew style ideas, etc.?

 

[Homercidal]

I know of a very familiar situation where there was a brewery (brewery A) who employed a head brewer. The owner told the head brewer what kind of beers to make, and he made them. Until eventually they just clashed too much and the brewer couldn't take it and he left.

When he left, the ex-brewer opened a brewery - Brewery B. They were opened in the same town, about 5 miles from each other.

Brewery A is very eccentric: crazy crazy beers with strange stuff in them, and just in a very different environment. Pinball tables, foosball, darts, chalkboards, pacman games, etc everywhere.

Brewery B focuses on the ingredients they put in each beer and growing things on site at the brewery. It's more like a farmhouse environment and very reserved.

This sounds just about like Right Brain Brewing and Brewery Terra Firma in Traverse City...

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'm sorry but I'm not all that convinced that getting into a magazine, especially on the cover, is simply because of being good at your craft. Most magazines nowdays sell "story" space that is essentially advertising with the guise of neat story), and even their website looks more professional.

Well, it's one thing to say that getting a cover is due to having great PR acumen, and another to say that getting a cover is due to pay for play...

My wife has a PR background. A while back, she and her sister were opening a small internet-based business selling gourmet rice krispy treats. Because of my wife's PR background, she knew how to pitch to media, and so she ended up getting story writeups in a number of magazines, and even featured in a segment on the local news (which in LA is no small feat). I can assure you there was no pay-for-play.

Of course, I have no experience with how the Alstrom brothers run their magazine... All I'll say about my opinion of them is that I generally have no desire to set foot on their web site.

 

[m00ps]

Im actually still shocked about the cover myself. I didnt think this tiny town would get any attention on that scale.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

This sounds just about like Right Brain Brewing and Brewery Terra Firma in Traverse City...

Never heard of Terra Firma... RBB has some okay stuff but never saw one and said "yes that is what I want, bring me 6 please." However I've never been to the brewery/taproom so the distribution quality vs taproom quality might be at play.

 

[Natdavis777]

#2 sounds like dooshes. #1 sounds cool. Go with #1. Or in layman's terms "Ditch the zero, get with the hero!"... Which is #1.

Seriously, we have a crapload of micros, which doesnt even hold a flame to some other cities. With that said, about 1/4 suck. Thats not being a snob, its just the general consensus. If your beer is good, it will sell. If your beer sucks, well, it may still sell, but not for long... And then you're out of business (which Ive seen in the past year, and possible for another place in the near future)

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

This sounds just about like Right Brain Brewing and Brewery Terra Firma in Traverse City...

@homercidal you are just too active in all these forums!!!

 

[Homercidal]

@homercidal you are just too active in all these forums!!!

What do I win?? :cross:

 

[Bosh]

I think that fulsome beard has won me over.

 

[soccerdad]

The more I read in this thread, the more I realize that Freud did indeed get between your local breweries.
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oh. feud !! Sorry. Carry on.