Fermentation temperature discussion

[smccarter]

I've been brewing for over 10... maybe 11 years I guess... And have always fermented at room temperature. Granted, my room temperature during fermentation is 68 degrees... my wife freezes during the first week of fermentation, but that didn't make "The top 10 things your wife says to you on brew day"....

I've always made pretty good beer... understanding that I've always brewed with ale yeast.

What I'd like to see in this discussion is just why you would build a fermentation chamber if you brew with Ale yeast. Especially an ale yeast that works well at temps in the 65 to 70 degree range.

I started this thread so that other brewers could talk about fermentation. Not looking for arguments or arrogant comments. Looking for an honest discussion about fermentation temperature and why you would need to build a fermentation chamber, or convert a freezer or refrigerator to use as a fermentation chamber.

Again... Not looking for arguments or rediculous arrogant comments. I'm really interested in an intellegent, adult conversation on the topic.

 

[amcclai7]

I've always fermented around 70, quite a bit more in the summer sometimes, and have never had any problems. Once, I had a batch of pine sprig ale fermenting in the summer while me and my GF where out of town. We had a friend staying at our house who was from Iran and used to the heat. She left the AC off the entire time!!! It was 85+ degrees in the house when we got back. I was pissed!

It turned out to be the best beer I ever brewed. Go figure.

 

[pokerpat]

I actually just built a chamber this weekend, and have some beer in it fermenting. I will be interested to see if there is a difference. My temps have gotten up around 74 in the past, and its never a steady temp the whole time. I'm hoping this will clear up some off tastes I've noticed in a few beers. I'm keep this batch at 64, we'll see. I'm only about 15 batches in this game, still very new.

 

[BlackGoat]

two reasons:

1. During fermentation the beer is going to be at a higher temp than the ambient temps, so if its 68* in the room it might be something around 75* in the fermenter which would cause off flavors

2. A fermentation chamber or swamp cooler cuts down on temperature swings which you may or not be subjecting your beer to during its fermentation.

I don't use a fermentation chamber but typically ferment in a better bottle that is placed into an open cube cooler full of water. I use frozen water bottles to keep the temperature down, which is very easy to do even in the summer.

 

[BlackGoat]

...and I'll add a #3 that even if an ale yeast identifies that it can go up to 70 degrees, doesn't mean that you should consider it as "fermenting well" at that temp, the higher you go the more esters you're going to get. That is great for some styles, but in general you'd want to be in the low end or the middle of the fermentation range.

 

[davekippen]

I built a chamber just because my house and even my basement temp is not stable at any time of year. I wanted consistency.

 

[BigFloyd]

What yeast strain do you most often use?

I've strictly controlled pitch/ferment temps since I started brewing, so I really can't compare early brews vs. current brews for this factor. Most of my ales pitch in the 60-62*F range, ferment at 63-64*F for the first 4-5 days and then slowly warm up to finish around 68-70*F. If I'm using Nottingham, I'll start around 56-57*F, then ramp to 66*F.

Being a part of a brew club that does a monthly "tasting", I get a chance to taste lots of different brews and ask questions about how they were made. The number one factor that distinguishes the really nice-tasting brews from the so-so (or worse) ones is fermentation temp control. Plenty of very nice brew gets brought to our tastings, but I can't recall ever tasting one left at room temp to ferment that tasted right to me.

 

[beergolf]

The two things that will improve your brewing.

Pitching the proper amount of healthy yeast and temperature control.

Using 68 degrees ambient is not always the best choice. The brew temp will be several degrees warmer the 68 so that is putting you outside the range of most ale yeasts.Some brews develop off flavors at those temps.

I like to ferment most of my brews at the lower end of the recommended range unless I want some of the esters. Some brews like Belgians work well if you start off at the very low end of the recommended range and hold it there for a few days and then raise the temp up. Some yeasts like some of the Saison strains may need to be heated up. For example WY3724 likes it up near 90 to get the best flavor.

Controlling the temp is very important. Try doing some brews using better temp control and your brews will go from being pretty good to great.

 

[duboman]

I'll put it this way: if you are happy with your beer there is no reason to deal with any of this but if you're not, then temperature control during fermentation is the one thing you can do to greatly improve the quality of your beer.

Yeast make beer and controlling temperature will completely define the flavor profile of the finished product. You can take the same wort and same yeast and ferment them 3-5 degrees apart and get two completely different beers just because of temperature.

If you really don't want to deal with this type of control then you can find a "house"strain that works for your set up and use that strain exclusively and turn out great beer as you see fit.

There really is no right or wrong, it's what works best for each brewer and their beer

 

[davekippen]

Beergolf makes some good points, in addition to liking the consistency, I like that fact that I know I can brew with any yeast, at any temp. No limitations of style due to my fermenting process.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Lots of good points here both ways. The main ones always seem to boil down to "I'm happy with my beer without controlling my temps" vs "I like having consistent control over my fermentation". I take the latter approach, and have the experience over 17 years of brewing to be able to say "I have made GREAT beer without a temperature controlled fermentation chamber, but my BEST beers have all been with precise temperature control."

 

[smccarter]

Thanks... keep the comments coming. I'm really considering a fermentation chamber, but really need the input.

 

[Yooper]

It's hard to explain to someone who fermented at 75 degrees and loves the result, but fermenting at 64 degrees (as an example) makes such a huge difference in the flavor of the beer that once you try it, you'll notice the difference.

An ale fermented at 74 degrees just has more esters than a beer fermented 8-10 degrees cooler. Some ale strains taste "ok" up to 75 degrees, but few if any taste great. The difference is quite remarkable to someone with a trained palate. I don't know of anyone who would claim that most ales taste better fermented at 74 degrees than at 65 degrees.

That said, if you're happy with the beers you make then there is no reason to attempt to improve them. You're the sole judge of your beer and your enjoyment of them.

 

[mr_rogers]

If you prefer the flavor of a warmer fermented beer over a cooler fermented beer than that's really great because the fermentation process is just that much more simple for you. Many brewers find that the biggest improvement in the flavor of their beer comes from consistent controlled cold temperatures.

I didn't mind the beer that I made when I first started, but if I went back and tried to make a particular batch again I wouldn't be able to because I wasn't in control of my temperatures. The yeast just did their thing back then.

 

[Allab8]

I'm really glad you posted this. I'm a beginner and I noticed my primary was about 5 degrees warmer than room temperature. Room temp 74. Guess I need to invest a little more.....

 

[schiersteinbrewing]

I use a refrigerator with home made temp controller ( https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/stc-1000-ebay-temperature-controller-build-330427/ ). It has made a huge difference in the quality of my beer.

 

[MindenMan]

I too have found out temperature control greatly affects the outcome of whatever I am brewing flavor wise. I had been brewing w/o temperature control, and I always use ESB 1968 for everything. Up until the last 5 batches, I took my chances; I thought my closet was cool enough/warm enough, you get the point. I do notice the lack of "hot" alcohol flavors in the last beers I have made, and I am sold on temperature control from this day forward. The biggest goof I ever made was not treating cider with the same love I showed my beers. I had a couple of "nail polish remover" smelling hard ciders, and it took forever to become palatable. It then occurred to me my lack of temp control was the problem. Since, I have keeping an eye on the temperatures of both beer and cider, my ciders and beers are right on where they should be.

 

[BigFloyd]

Thanks... keep the comments coming. I'm really considering a fermentation chamber, but really need the input.

Since you live in FL, your beers would benefit greatly if you got your hands on a used fridge or freezer and plugged it into a controller. I really appreciate the $18-20 STC-1000 and would love to shake the hand of (and give a tasty glass of beer to) the first person who figured out how to apply it to brewing. I've got them on my fermenter chamber, my lagering/cold crash fridge and on my keezer.

It's sort of like the other day while we were riding bikes. One of the ladies I cycle with a lot was talking about the Lasik eye surgery she had earlier this year. She's 33 and had been wearing glasses since 4th grade. Her only regret was that she waited so long to get it done.

 

[duboman]

In considering this further, the other thing that can be done is to brew certain styles and use certain yeast strains that are applicable to the seasonal temperatures. For example, Belgian strains of yeast tolerate and enjoy higher fermentation temperatures so you could brew these styles during the warmer months and brew your lower temperature strains during the winter months when temperatures moderate.

In brewing this way a simple swamp cooler could be used to hold the temperatures swings in check fairly easily without un-needed expenses.

 

[progmac]

What yeast strain do you most often use?

I've strictly controlled pitch/ferment temps since I started brewing, so I really can't compare early brews vs. current brews for this factor. Most of my ales pitch in the 60-62*F range, ferment at 63-64*F for the first 4-5 days and then slowly warm up to finish around 68-70*F. If I'm using Nottingham, I'll start around 56-57*F, then ramp to 66*F.

Being a part of a brew club that does a monthly "tasting", I get a chance to taste lots of different brews and ask questions about how they were made. The number one factor that distinguishes the really nice-tasting brews from the so-so (or worse) ones is fermentation temp control. Plenty of very nice brew gets brought to our tastings, but I can't recall ever tasting one left at room temp to ferment that tasted right to me.

I bet that you make really good beer.

I started with my fermentation chamber because I wanted to ferment beer cold. But now what I like about it is that I can ramp the temperature throughout fermentation. Most ales I'll start at 62-64, then once it hits high krausen, the wort goes up to 68 or so with the chamber still set at the original temps. Once high krausen starts fading, I'll take the temperature up to 70+. I can't believe how well this works.

My last beer I purposely finished at 76 degrees. But this was after pitching at 65 and reaching high krausen at 68. It came out very clean and dry.

 

[bierandbikes]

I have always used the ambient temp of my basement which is consistent but fluctuates throughout the year. I have also submerged my fermenter in a water bath to act as a heat sink. For the first time I am using an aquarium heater to raise temps for a saison.

Question: how to you control the fermenter temp? Example; I recently brewed a pumpkin ale using a Trappist yeast. Although the ambient temp was 68, the thermometer tape on the side of my carboy said 81. I don't doubt that it was hotter in the middle of the roiling wort. Do you drop a probe into the fermenter so that the chamber is cooler in order to offset the heat produced by the fermentation action or is taping a probe to the outside of the fermenter adequate?

I am ready to take the next step and a freezer/fridge is the logical choice. I can sell the idea to the wife if I use it to make cheese as well, but would need to plan my beers to match the cheese temps and vice verse.

 

[dyqik]

Just taping the temperature probe to the side of a plastic fermenter, and then taping some insulation over it is usually adequate - I use a piece of bubble wrap folded over a few times.

Or you can invest in a thermowell and drop a probe right into the middle of the fermenter.

With multiple fermenters in the chamber, it usually most important to monitor the fermenter that's on its way to high krausen or passing through high krausen. Once fermentation slows down, precise temperature control is slightly less important. So you can plan the temperature for the growth phase of the current brew, and let batches with similar yeasts that are in the cleaning up phase just live with whatever temperature that is. This won't let you brew a lager and a saison at the same time, but you can do e.g. a couple of kinds of ales.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I have always used the ambient temp of my basement which is consistent but fluctuates throughout the year. I have also submerged my fermenter in a water bath to act as a heat sink. For the first time I am using an aquarium heater to raise temps for a saison.

Question: how to you control the fermenter temp? Example; I recently brewed a pumpkin ale using a Trappist yeast. Although the ambient temp was 68, the thermometer tape on the side of my carboy said 81. I don't doubt that it was hotter in the middle of the roiling wort. Do you drop a probe into the fermenter so that the chamber is cooler in order to offset the heat produced by the fermentation action or is taping a probe to the outside of the fermenter adequate?

I am ready to take the next step and a freezer/fridge is the logical choice. I can sell the idea to the wife if I use it to make cheese as well, but would need to plan my beers to match the cheese temps and vice verse.

My fermentation chamber is in my unheated garage, so I use a dual stage controller, which will turn on a heat source if it gets too cool, and the fridge if it gets too warm. Like BigFloyd, I love being able to let the beer go through a range automatically, so if I'm starting at 62F, I'll set the heat to come on at 61F with a 1 degree variance, and set the cooling to come on at 66F with a 1 degree variance (so between 62F and 65F, it is neither heating nor cooling). I'll pitch at 62F, let the controller keep it from going below 62F or above 65F, and let the heat of fermentation ramp it up to 65F from 62F. If I'm doing a diacetyl rest, I'll manually change my controller settings and raise it up to 68-70F, and then cold crash it. I'm still experimenting with cold crashing - as was mentioned on another recent thread, cold crashing too rapidly MAY produce yeast stress and off flavors. IMO I can't say one way or the other.

As to temp monitoring, I have the probe strapped to the side of the fermenter under a insulating layer of bubble wrap to protect it from the ambient air. I've read (but again, never experimented myself) that there is so little difference between that temp and the internal temp of the wort/beer (1/2 to 1 degree) that I'm happy with it. Anyway, as long as I measure it the same way each time, then I know I'm getting the same results.

Can't help you with the cheese. It's on my to-do list, along with cured meats. Sadly, because I am still working, I only have time for brewing, wine, cider, vinegar & mead making, photography, vegetable gardening, dancing, hiking and writing poetry. Oh, and brewery and brewpub hopping!

 

[progmac]

Question: how to you control the fermenter temp? Example; I recently brewed a pumpkin ale using a Trappist yeast. Although the ambient temp was 68, the thermometer tape on the side of my carboy said 81. I don't doubt that it was hotter in the middle of the roiling wort. Do you drop a probe into the fermenter so that the chamber is cooler in order to offset the heat produced by the fermentation action or is taping a probe to the outside of the fermenter adequate?

I just control the ambient temp and note how that affects the wort. Sometimes I have to use a strain once or twice to get a sense of how jumpy it is.

In general I would never start a big beer with an ambient temp of over say 65. Those can get out of control really quickly. I also think about the upper end and how i'll control temps there. I don't want high krausen to also be the peak temperature. I have also never found an effective way of cooling fermenting wort that has gotten hotter than I would like.

 

[Yooper]

I am ready to take the next step and a freezer/fridge is the logical choice. I can sell the idea to the wife if I use it to make cheese as well, but would need to plan my beers to match the cheese temps and vice verse.

I don't make cheese much anymore, but when I did I could not keep my beer and cheese together. There are a couple of reasons, but the biggest is that cheese ripens at about 50 degrees. Few beers ferment at 50 degrees (just lagers). I also took great pains to keep my cheese (lacto fermented) and wine and beer (saccharomyces c) apart to avoid cross contamination. Cheese also needs very high humidity- not great for mold control in a big freezer/fridge! I used a cooler with ice packs for a cheese cave until I bought a little wine cooler for the cheese.

 

[bierandbikes]

I knew about the temp differences but did not think about the humidity problems. It was always a struggle to keep the humidity high enough when I was able to make cheese. I guess the best option is to build the freezer fermentation chamber for the beer and dig a "cave" in the back pasture.

 

[philosofool]

Hot fermentation leads to many things that can be objectionable. I hate hot alcohols and the mouthfeel that comes with them, even when the levels are a low. High levels of phenols produced by some yeasts are also not my favorite. I like a fruity beer (esters) but I prefer them a little restrained.

Moving toward better temperature control is a new thing for me. I just moved into an old house in a city where the daily high is 30 degrees warmer than the low. So, a consistent indoor temperature hardly exists for me.

I don't actually have a fermentation chamber yet. That will happen this spring. This time of year, I ferment on my porch, which is enclosed but cool; I have a fermenter warmer that I just got on the eBay style controller. I used to ferment in a room that was 63 degrees in the winter. Over the summer, a wet towel is sufficient to achieve temperature control, which is surprisingly effective at sucking heat up in the hot day but not cooling excessively at night in the summer. I should mention that I live in an arid place, so water evaporates pretty easy here. One of the best fermentations I had all year was a wet towel job; Scottish Ale yeast for an otherwise Dortmunder Export (between a german pils and a helles in all respects, except ABV.)

 

[ronjonacron]

Smccarter, even in the most vulnerable of the brews you let me try (the blonde i would say) i did not taste any evidence of fusels or other flavors associated with "high" fermentation temps. Now im mot saying i have the most refined palette by any means. I think honestly if you like the way your brews taste, dont fix what aint broke.

However, among the other reasons like the stability others mentioned. It may save you money on your power bill to only have a chamber in the 60s rather than the whole house. Just something to consider, ive been in the south for most of my life, so in the summer my house is between 75-77 which i find comfortable. When i did beers at that temp they came out horrible.

Im starting to ramble now... let us know what you decide.

 

[Matthias]

I am new at this and only just completed my fermentation chamber this weekend, but here are the reasons I did it.

1) I can make the yeast happy.

2) I can do any temp range style I want! Bocks, here I come!

3) I have a 4 and 2 year old who liked to peak at my carboys, didn't want it falling on them.

4) fermentation volcano, ain't such a big deal when its enclosed in a chest freezer with bottom drain!

5) bottle bombs, refer to reason 4.

6) I like to tinker.

7) my basement temps swing an aweful lot for some dumb reason and I don't want stuck fermentations.

That's it, I think... Aside from the fact that the wife will never look in there and say I have too much beer, because it won't be where she -has- to see it.

 

[BigFloyd]

I am new at this and only just completed my fermentation chamber this weekend, but here are the reasons I did it.

1) I can make the yeast happy.

2) I can do any temp range style I want! Bocks, here I come!

3) I have a 4 and 2 year old who liked to peak at my carboys, didn't want it falling on them.

4) fermentation volcano, ain't such a big deal when its enclosed in a chest freezer with bottom drain!

5) bottle bombs, refer to reason 4.

6) I like to tinker.

7) my basement temps swing an aweful lot for some dumb reason and I don't want stuck fermentations.

That's it, I think... Aside from the fact that the wife will never look in there and say I have too much beer, because it won't be where she -has- to see it.

Good reasons all.

 

[ColeBeer78]

The best beer I ever made is with a chamber. I couldn't believe the difference it makes. I ferment in my garage in the winter with a chamber and use the lightbulb paintcan trick. Works great!

 

[smccarter]

Looks like I'll be adding a couple of new processes to my next batch of beer.

I've really been over-thinking the fermentation chamber. I have a deep freezer and a temperature controller. I used to keg and used the freezer to cool my kegs. The intention was to build a keezer, but I think I'm going to use the freezer as a fermentation chamber - at least for the time being. I'll also use the freezer to cold crash my next couple of beers to see how much of a difference it makes to the clarity of my beer. I've always moved to secondary and let my beer set there for at least 2 weeks... usually more like 4. My beer is fairly clear, but I'd like to see if I can get it to the extremely clear point.

I've also ordered a 2 liter flask. Mr Malty says I need a starter of 1.57 liters of 1.040 wort to get to the correct amount of yeast to pitch with my next batch.

I live by the KISS principle. The added processes are going to increase the complexity of my brewing process by a fairly large factor. I really hope to see a significant improvement in my beer, which has always been pretty good. Who knows, maybe I'll brew a few really REALLY good beers. If not... I'll probably skip the fermentation chamber and cold crashing. I'll continue making yeast starters. That's something that is relatively simple and just makes good sense.

 

[bierandbikes]

Just acquired a chest freezer that has been converted to a keezer. It is pretty dirty and got a healthy population of mold but I think I can save it. The best part...it was free. It actually has the tower, CO2 tank and regulator, and keg connect. The lines will need to be tossed and everything seriously cleaned, but good timing.

It has a temp controller but appears to only work on the cooling side. Any recommendations for a dual control so I can heat if necessary as well as cool?

 

[philosofool]

Just acquired a chest freezer that has been converted to a keezer. It is pretty dirty and got a healthy population of mold but I think I can save it. The best part...it was free. It actually has the tower, CO2 tank and regulator, and keg connect. The lines will need to be tossed and everything seriously cleaned, but good timing.

It has a temp controller but appears to only work on the cooling side. Any recommendations for a dual control so I can heat if necessary as well as cool?

An STC-1000 Is the DIY controller of choice for homebrewers. Building one will set you back thirty to forty bucks depending on what you already have to build the whole controller. There's a massive thread on these forums, just look for 'ebay temperature controller'.

 

[philosofool]

I live by the KISS principle. The added processes are going to increase the complexity of my brewing process by a fairly large factor. I really hope to see a significant improvement in my beer, which has always been pretty good. Who knows, maybe I'll brew a few really REALLY good beers. If not... I'll probably skip the fermentation chamber and cold crashing. I'll continue making yeast starters. That's something that is relatively simple and just makes good sense.

I think you'd be better off doing the reverse. Fermentation temperature control is more important to the end result than a starter for most beers. While building the ferm chamber is complex, using one is a lot easier and simpler than making a starter: the only added step is setting the temp controller.

 

[dannysk]

Even a single degree F difference can have an impact on the fermentation, e.g., esters, higher alcohols, attenuation, all of which can impact flavor. Without proper cooling control and with inconsistencies in yeast pitching, you are likely getting several degrees of variability. By controlling the fermentation a little more precisely, you might find spectacular results and even be able to drive the flavor profile that you are looking for. I am personally a huge fan of fermentation control (pitch rate, consistent oxygen addition rate, pitch temperature and fermentation/attemporation temperature). Best of all, controlling these parameters will allow you to learn as a brewer how to get the desired outcome.
Cheers.

 

[smccarter]

Spent the afternoon cleaning my freezer. I'm in the process of tuning the temp controller. I had it set on 60 and the freezer got down to exactly 50. I'm waiting for the freezer to warm up again... I set it to 68 to see what temp that would stop on. May need to purchase a more accurate controller.

I've got a beer in the carboy. I pulled 1.5 liters of wort from it and have a starter going. I'll pitch this evening. Brewed yesterday. I plan to ferment in the freezer this week at 60 degrees. Then cold crash in a few weeks at about 40 degrees.

We'll see.

 

[smccarter]

I've pitched my yeast. The carboy was at about 62 degrees F. I am looking forward to this beer. I really hope that this one turns out well.

 

[smccarter]

Looking pretty good. The freezer is holding a 1 gallon bottle of water at 61 degrees. I'm assuming the beer is at the same temp, and it's fermenting. Pitched the yeast last night and it had a very healty kruisen this morning.

You folks are a bad influence on me. I'm a lazy man who really likes to keep things simple. In the freezer, I had 4 kegs that have been setting in there for a couple of years. Since I powered the freezer off. I pulled them out and will be cleaning and rebuilding them. I guess I'll be kegging again since I have the kegs now. I'm looking at a Edgestar Kegerator Refrigerator - BR2000BL that I'll probably purchase along with the hardware for a kegerator. I probably won't keg all of my beers, but since I have 8 kegs, I guess I'll go ahead and start using them again.

Problem is... I have 9 carboys. The freezer only holds 2 carboys at a time. How can I ferment 4 beers at once, cold crash 4 at once... etc... That's the real question. I think this is going to cut down on production a good bit.

 

[smccarter]

So here it is... but I do have a question.

In the small 1 gallon bottle I have the temperature probe. I have the controller set to 60 degrees which is the temperature of the water in the 1 gallon jug. I'm making an assumption that the fermenting beer is also 60 degrees. It feels warmer than that in the actual freezer. The question is, is the fermenting beer actually 60 degrees?