Feedback on English Dark Mild Recipe?

[cire]

Yes, EBC is more usual n UK. Simpson's crystal malt page gives recommendations of their malts for styles with both EBC and Lovibond. It advised their Dark Crystal for Dark Mild, 250EBC/100L.

 

[AMessenger]

Yes. Caramel is used to modify just color and flavor, both beers being 3.5% ABV. I don't know if invert is part of the basic recipe for those, but it might be.

I’ll have to give that a try. Thank you! Do you think the dry caramel that procedure you (sorry - wires crossed) linked would match the “Caramel colorant” called for in the Shut Up About Barclays Perkins JW Lees - 1952 - Best Mild recipe?

 

[rhys333]

Matthew Brown you mean? Well if you're interested in defunct breweries in Lancashire there's only one man for the job and that's @Edd Mather - he's not around here much so you may be better off contacting him via his website, it looks like he's still not been able to get hold of the MB records but he's got others that your old man probably would have encountered, like this Duttons mild from 1967 :

https://oldbeersandbrewing.blogspot.com/2019/10/duttons-of-blackburn-mild-1967.html
Ron Pattinson has published a recipe for Oldham Mild in 1987, after the Boddies takeover.

In both cases you'll notice that northwest milds are rather different to traditional Black Country milds, they tend to have huge amounts (by British standards) of crystal malt, up towards 10%.

Yes, it must be Matthew Brown since they are the only brewers to occupy the Lion Brewery building during the relevant time period. I asked my dad, and he knows it as Lion Mild but says it was Blackburn so I think we can safely call it as MB. Thanks for clearing that up. It looks like I have the crystal malt spot on going by that Oldham mild recipe. Maybe a little heavy on the chocolate malt, but that's what this first attempt is about. I can dial it back on the rebrew if it's a bit too porter-like.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Matthew Brown you mean? Well if you're interested in defunct breweries in Lancashire there's only one man for the job and that's @Edd Mather - he's not around here much so you may be better off contacting him via his website, it looks like he's still not been able to get hold of the MB records but he's got others that your old man probably would have encountered, like this Duttons mild from 1967 :

https://oldbeersandbrewing.blogspot.com/2019/10/duttons-of-blackburn-mild-1967.html
Ron Pattinson has published a recipe for Oldham Mild in 1987, after the Boddies takeover.

Both of these recipes look pretty good. What is a representative yeast you think for northern milds and bitters? I'm not a fan of Windsor. London III is dull and lifeless, and you've been on other threads debunking it as the Boddington yeast. Any obvious tries like Manchester or Notty or something else that's available?

I'm focused on cloning Dark Mild | Machine House Brewery | Seattle Beer It's ambrosial. Uses Bairds C50-60, C120-150, Chocolate, American 2-row and fuller's yeast. The brewer is English, and has a passion for his beer. This beer opened my eyes to what a mild, or something like a real mild should be. I've done 15 versions and getting closer, but not there yet...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yes, it must be Matthew Brown since they are the only brewers to occupy the Lion Brewery building during the relevant time period. I asked my dad, and he knows it as Lion Mild but says it was Blackburn so I think we can safely call it as MB. Thanks for clearing that up. It looks like I have the crystal malt spot on going by that Oldham mild recipe. Maybe a little heavy on the chocolate malt, but that's what this first attempt is about. I can dial it back on the rebrew if it's a bit too porter-like.

It's worth emphasising that these northwest milds are rather different to other milds with the amount of crystal they use, but if he's used to drinking in Blackburn then it's appropriate. I don't know Central Lancs particularly well but it looks like I'll be doing quite a bit of business there next year, so hopefully I'll be able to pick up a bit more on the ground once things get easier on the Covid front. Looks like the Lion thing was just MB trying to hide behind the "local" brand after an unpopular takeover - Brewery History Society have a bit more on that.

If you're looking for Christmas presents, the National Brewery Centre does laminated coasters with 100's of old beer label designs such as Lion Mild - any Ron Pattinson fan would appreciate them, and it helps support them which has to be A Good Thing, particularly at the moment. You can even pick up original beermats elsewhere.

Both of these recipes look pretty good. What is a representative yeast you think for northern milds and bitters? I'm not a fan of Windsor. London III is dull and lifeless, and you've been on other threads debunking it as the Boddington yeast. Any obvious tries like Manchester or Notty or something else that's available?

It's not an area that's well represented by the stuff you can get easily Stateside - as I've said, WLP038 sounds a nice yeast and may be your best option short of asking Brewlab for F40 or CC or something, or harvesting commercial dregs. Given the connection between Matthew Brown and Theakston, there may have been some swapping of yeast there?

 

[cire]

I’ll have to give that a try. Thank you! Do you think the dry caramel that procedure you (sorry - wires crossed) linked would match the “Caramel colorant” called for in the Shut Up About Barclays Perkins JW Lees - 1952 - Best Mild recipe?

It wouldn't be exactly that used by the brewer, but it should provide a similar effect. The black malt would add a lot of the color with the caramel adding flavor.

 

[rhys333]

I think I'm going to naturally carbonate this keg. Any pointers on sugar amount? I know large batch priming (i.e.: 5 gallon keg) requires way less per litre/quart than bottles, so my trusted bottle priming calculator won't work here. Also, am I looking at the same 2 to 3 weeks for carbonation, or is this different as well in large volume?

I'll be packaging Thursday, so will be able to report back then with my terminal gravity.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I do 4g per litre for uk ales

 

[kmarkstevens]

You can go back to the original joy of homebrewing: 1/2 cup priming sugar for 5 gallons.

I do around 1/4 heaping cup of white sugar for a 5 gallon keg of ordinary bitter. I'm not English, just an English ale enthusiast but that seems to work.

The great thing about keg conditioning is there is a really wide margin of error. Too little carbonation and you just add some CO2, too much carbonation and a couple of pints probably gets you to the sweet spot. There are maybe 4-8 pints in the sweet spot, which taste really good. Then it goes flat and some CO2 is called for.

The second great thing about keg conditioning is that the amount of CO2 needed to push out the beer (as opposed to forcing corbonation) is minimal. My CO2 bottles last a long time these days

 

[rhys333]

I be be curious to hear how it turns out.

I like pale chocolate better than the darker standard chocolate malt. I think it has more of a chocolate flavor and less roasty.

And @kmarkstevens

Results are promising so far, going by tonight's gravity sample.

With a 160F mash, it went from 1.042 to 1.013, or 3.8% abv and 68% attenuation. This with WY 1968.

The aroma is chocolate and there's a hint of roast in the flavor but it's very smooth. It definitely has a lot of body too. I'm looking forward to tasting this again when it's carbonated.

 

[rhys333]

I decided to force carb the main batch for speed, so I was able to sample the beer last night. It tastes nice but it's not exactly what I had in mind and plan make a few adjustments for the Christmas re-brew. It also has poor head retention for some reason, which is a head-scratcher given the ingredients and high mash temp. Not sure what happened there.

The overall flavor is "mild", so that's a plus, and it has the right amount of body. There's a pronounced dark fruit flavor and a mild but noticeable dark malt character. For the rebrew, I plan to reduce the chocolate malt and flaked barley, but increase the C80. I'm just now recalling my dad commenting on an amber ale I brewed a few years ago that had 13% C80 and he remarked at the time that it tasted like the milds he used to drink. With that in mind, I'm tweaking my recipe as follows:

DARK MILD, v2
77% Golden Promise
12% UK C80
8% Flaked barley
3% UK Chocolate
Willamette (or EKG) @ 60 to 20 IBU
Wyeast 1469 West Yorks

 

[kmarkstevens]

Made a half batch of Boddington's Oldham mild and hopefully revived WLP026 (I got this in the vault purge and kept a little bit in the original White Labs tube.) I've got a 3 gallon conical, and this has become my mild fermenter as I try to perfect a recipe or three. Since milds are low ABV, it also works well to propagate yeast at the same time. So, I dial in a recipe and at the same time rotate thru yeasts to backfill the yeast bank.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Simpson's Golden Promise 42%
Vienna 32%
Crystal 40L 9%
Brown malt 5%
Crystal 120L 4%
Special Roast 4%
Chocolate Wheat 4%

Willemette 17 IBUs at 60 min
Willemette 4 IBUs at 20 min

LalBrew New England dry yeast

OG 1.038
FG 1.010
ABV 3.9%

 

[kmarkstevens]

That is pure beer porn. I am soooooooo jealous

 

[Witherby]

Here's a Mild that I am going to brew on New Year's Day:

5 lbs Maris Otter (71.4 %)
1 lb Corn Grits [cereal mash] (14.3 %) (I would use flaked maize but I hate my LHBS and I have grits on hand)
1 lb #3 Invert [Boil] (14.3 %)
Mash at 152F

1.00 oz Goldings [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min (19.2 IBUs)
0.50 oz Goldings [5.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min (1.9 IBUs)

West Yorkshire Ale (Wyeast Labs #1469)

OG 1.035

I want to keep it as simple and traditional as possible to start with and then tweak it from there. I have brewed a few of Ron Pattinson's mild recipes in the past but never with the #3 invert sugar. I've heard him tell the story several times (including again yesterday on a webinar) about working with Fullers on a beer and getting to taste #3 invert sugar and realizing that that is the key flavor and key ingredient for mild. I've made #1 and #2 invert before but didn't feel like putting in the time to boil for 3 hours, but a few weeks ago I bit the bullet:

I'm hoping with just malt, corn, #3 invert and Goldings that I can tell the contribution that each makes. I'm not a huge fan of crystal malt so I don't want to include any. And I'm curious to see what the color is. I have some Brupaks caramel from a UK homebrew shop and I might add that for future brews or competition since people expect a certain color for mild but I'm also leaving that out for this batch.

And since we are sharing, here is my keg-cask beer engine setup (with a pint of my Batham's Bitter clone):

Cheers!

 

[ba-brewer]

If this is new, you can make your own invert: Making Brewers Invert | half a cat

A while back I tried this approach to make some darker invert(2 or 3 I forget which) using plantation backstrap molasses. The flavor of molasses(black licorice) was quite strong even in small quantities.

Now the reason for bringing this up now. I was on amazon and seen a combo pack of Lyles golden syrup and black treacle for a reasonable price so I bought it to taste the black treacle. The initial flavor of black treacle was similar to the black strap molasses but then there was a very strong sulfur aftertaste. The taste was just a bit from the back of the spoon but the flavor lingered for quite a while so I don't think I will be use it for brewing.

 

[rhys333]

It tastes nice but it's not exactly what I had in mind and plan make a few adjustments for the Christmas re-brew. It also has poor head retention for some reason, which is a head-scratcher given the ingredients and high mash temp. Not sure what happened there.

30 Dec 2020 update:
Revising the above because the beer has changed since my pre-Christmas tasting. It's been 2 maybe 3 weeks now and the dark fruit flavor has mellowed considerably. Head retention has improved, but still a little light for my liking. I'm happy calling this a dark mild. That said, I still intend to raise the C80, and the chocolate malt will be reduced slightly to compensate.

 

[kevin58]

A while back I tried this approach to make some darker invert(2 or 3 I forget which) using plantation backstrap molasses. The flavor of molasses(black licorice) was quite strong even in small quantities.

Now the reason for bringing this up now. I was on amazon and seen a combo pack of Lyles golden syrup and black treacle for a reasonable price so I bought it to taste the black treacle. The initial flavor of black treacle was similar to the black strap molasses but then there was a very strong sulfur aftertaste. The taste was just a bit from the back of the spoon but the flavor lingered for quite a while so I don't think I will be use it for brewing.

I wouldn't use molasses or treacle to make invert. Look for turbinado sugar. Often packaged and sold as "Sugar In The Raw". Blackstrap molasses is basically the dregs of the sugar making process and imo is pretty nasty stuff. For those not willing or able to make their own a proper Invert Sugar has been available in the US through Adventures In Homebrewing: Welcome to Adventures in Homebrewing - What is your Adventure?

 

[kmarkstevens]

so I bought it to taste the black treacle. The initial flavor of black treacle was similar to the black strap molasses but then there was a very strong sulfur aftertaste. The taste was just a bit from the back of the spoon but the flavor lingered for quite a while so I don't think I will be use it for brewing.

I had a couple cans for black treacle a few years ago, and from my brewing notes from back then: 1/4 - 1/2 cup black treacle in 5 gallons produced superior dense bubbles in the head, and no noticeable treacle taste.

I have dabbled in making my own invert in the oven (takes hours but all you have to do is watch it in the oven). That said, just added invert #3 to my shopping cart to have a benchmark.

I wish there was a tester pack of the US invert 1, 2, 3 & 4. $8/pound of invert is pretty pricy and I don't want to pay $32 for the pleasure of comparing the 4 grades.

 

[ba-brewer]

I had a couple cans for black treacle a few years ago, and from my brewing notes from back then: 1/4 - 1/2 cup black treacle in 5 gallons produced superior dense bubbles in the head, and no noticeable treacle taste.

Did you pick up a sulfur flavor? Maybe mine is bad. I have seen molasses identified as unsulfured so I assumed it was a normal flavor.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@ba-brewer I didn't pick up sulfur in that 1/4 - 1/2 cup amount. When I used more treacle, the treacle taste definately came thru and wasn't exactly unpleasant. FWIW, I don't remember a marked sulfur taste.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @kmarkstevens, I will have to give it another try later before passing final judgement and turning it into cookies.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hmm - treacle has a distinctive after-taste, but I'm not sure I'd call it sulphury.

One of the best things to do with it since you have it, is parkin.

 

[ba-brewer]

Hmm - treacle has a distinctive after-taste, but I'm not sure I'd call it sulphury.

One of the best things to do with it since you have it, is parkin.

So I went back and gave the treacle another taste and I am not getting the same level of sulfur as I did when I first opened the tin(maybe 2weeks ago) but it is still there. It may also have a gasoline/petrol character. In all fairness I tried the blackstrap and I would say it also has a gasoline/petrol aftertaste.

I might give the Parkin a try, but a treacle flapjack is closer to how I use the blackstrap now.

 

[monkeymath]

Everytime I see a post about or a picture of a Dark Mild, I immediately think "Why am I not making one right now? Why do I have so many other beers on my to-brew list?".

Currently have a rye porter fermenting with WY 1469. I've been meaning to try that yeast for a while and with everything I've read about it, I should definitely use the captured yeast (top-cropping is fun!) for a dark mild in the near future.

I know hops are not particularly important for a mild, but I am a bit confused. I've read (and heard it on this "virtual brewery tour" ) that Timothy Taylor uses Savinjski Goldings. The clone recipes of Landlord I've found call for EKG and lots of Styrian (!) Goldings in the aroma.
Unfortunately, I've never had any TT beers myself, but the common descriptions of Landlord do not match the description of Savinjski Goldings, which all revolve around herbal, spicy, noble-ish aspects.
Is Savinjski Goldings appropriate as an aroma hop? I didn't drink nearly enough beer whilst in the UK, but somehow the hops descriptions don't match with my idea of "classic" British ales.

 

[rhys333]

Everytime I see a post about or a picture of a Dark Mild, I immediately think "Why am I not making one right now? Why do I have so many other beers on my to-brew list?".

Currently have a rye porter fermenting with WY 1469. I've been meaning to try that yeast for a while and with everything I've read about it, I should definitely use the captured yeast (top-cropping is fun!) for a dark mild in the near future.

I know hops are not particularly important for a mild, but I am a bit confused. I've read (and heard it on this "virtual brewery tour" ) that Timothy Taylor uses Savinjski Goldings. The clone recipes of Landlord I've found call for EKG and lots of Styrian (!) Goldings in the aroma.
Unfortunately, I've never had any TT beers myself, but the common descriptions of Landlord do not match the description of Savinjski Goldings, which all revolve around herbal, spicy, noble-ish aspects.
Is Savinjski Goldings appropriate as an aroma hop? I didn't drink nearly enough beer whilst in the UK, but somehow the hops descriptions don't match with my idea of "classic" British ales.

Nice. That presenter sounds like me.

 

[rhys333]

I'm making a test batch of invert #3 right now (oven method). If it works, it's going into a 100% Golden Promise 1.045 beer to test the flavor contribution. If I'm happy with it, I may try some in the next dark mild.

 

[rhys333]

After 7 hours I finally have a pound of reddish-black invert #3. That was an hour spent calibrating the oven, 3 hours to find out that a 230-255F oven isn't hot enough to keep the syrup above 240F, and 3 more hours at 245-270F to darken the syrup.

Now that I've dialed it in, this will be a set-it-and-forget-it next time around. That said, I have to wonder if just letting it tick over on the stove for a few hours is an easier way to go. As long as it's being made on brew day and going directly into the boil, is temperature really an issue? I'm only worrying about it solidifying if it has a chance to cool.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've read... that Timothy Taylor uses Savinjski Goldings. The clone recipes of Landlord I've found call for EKG and lots of Styrian (!) Goldings in the aroma.
Unfortunately, I've never had any TT beers myself, but the common descriptions of Landlord do not match the description of Savinjski Goldings, which all revolve around herbal, spicy, noble-ish aspects.
Is Savinjski Goldings appropriate as an aroma hop? I didn't drink nearly enough beer whilst in the UK, but somehow the hops descriptions don't match with my idea of "classic" British ales.

Styrian Goldings is the traditional name, but also got applied to other Slovenian varieties like Celeia etc and then there's also the fact that most of Styria is now in Austria, so Savinjski Golding is now the preferred name for the Slovenian variety that is a parent of Celeia (and other new Slovenian varieties).

Essentially it's a Fuggle grown in sunnier conditions that bring out the citrus more, see eg Farams : "Earthy, Floral, Lemon"

Compare with Timmy's description of Landlord : "Aroma: Citrus, Hoppy, Fruity"

But yep, Styrians are one of the traditional hops in British beers - not every beer uses them, but a meaningful fraction do.

But as you say probably wasted on mild.

 

[Witherby]

That said, I have to wonder if just letting it tick over on the stove for a few hours is an easier way to go. As long as it's being made on brew day and going directly into the boil, is temperature really an issue? I'm only worrying about it solidifying if it has a chance to cool.

I too was worried about the #3 invert I made a month ago turning into a block of sugar. I made 4 pounds and put it into mason jars and put them in the fridge. Today for the mild I am brewing I pulled out a one pound jar and set in in a pot of very hot water and it has turned back into a syrup. It has been a crappy brew day so far but that seems to be the one thing that hasn't gone wrong (knock on wood).