Fast Souring - Modern Methods

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RPh_Guy said:
I generally don't recommend pre-souring.

A Flanders Red needs Brettanomyces yeast to get the right flavor profile. There are two basic ways to make a sour with Brett (traditional vs modern), and in either case you want the yeast to produce flavor before souring the beer.

L. plantarum is best to use with my fast & funky method, but it won't work if there are any hops present. However you can use L. brevis or Sour Weapon P, which might not be quite as fast as L. plantarum, but they would be much more suited to overcoming a low hop rate ... Otherwise you should use yeast with no hops.

Hope that makes sense.
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For low hop sours, I've read up on the modern methods and they all seem fairly simple. I plan to co-sour a Gose this way with L. Plantarum next, adding a hop tea to stop souring after 1-3 days.

However, for a sour IPA, or any other high IBU beer, would pre-souring be the only option to really get any or much hop bitterness? Can a hop tea be boiled for an hour adding hops like a normal brew boil to get bitterness/flavor/aroma contributions?

I've considered a normal mash, no hop boil (short), chill like normal, transfer to a corny keg at 95F (easy to seal & CO2 purge), let sour on L. Plantarum for 1-3 days, transfer back to the kettle and boil/hop like normal before a 'normal' ale yeast fermentation. Would this be the best sour IPA approach?
 
I know that a hop tea can be boiled for bitterness, you could take a bit of wort for that.

The OP doesn't mention oxygen in the souring method, iirc. Is it taken as gospel that oxygen needs excluding when co-pitching the yeast and the L Plantarum? Or can it be done in a regular fermenter?
 
stealthfixr said:
Can a hop tea be boiled for an hour adding hops like a normal brew boil to get bitterness/flavor/aroma contributions?
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Definitely. Hop tea can add as much bitterness as you want, and is great for adding aroma.
Blending is another option.

I don't see any advantage to pre-souring, only disadvantages.

duncan_disorderly said:
The OP doesn't mention oxygen in the souring method, iirc. Is it taken as gospel that oxygen needs excluding when co-pitching the yeast and the L Plantarum? Or can it be done in a regular fermenter?
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Aerate as normal when pitching. Oxygen certainly does not harm the bacteria. :)

I can no longer edit the original post on this thread, but my wiki contains updated and expanded information.

Cheers
 
RPh_Guy said:
Aerate as normal when pitching. Oxygen certainly does not harm the bacteria. :)

I can no longer edit the original post on this thread, but my wiki contains updated and expanded information.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Thanks. Can you explain why oxygen is such a no no with pre-souring and not a problem with co-pitching? You don't need to purge the FV of oxygen?

I guess it's all in the wiki, sorry. I'm going try this, many thanks for posting. I found it eventually!
 
As I understand it, the reason to avoid oxygen when doing kettle sours is to inhibit unwanted bacteria/yeast.
 
tizoc said:
As I understand it, the reason to avoid oxygen when doing kettle sours is to inhibit unwanted bacteria/yeast.
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The things that can contaminate wort during a pre-souring phase are mostly anaerobic.
 
So I brewed what I intend to be a sour IPA this past Sunday, and pitched a fresh slurry of Omega's Tropical Yeast. Made a sour starter with 2 Swanson capsules (no calcium carbonate though). Let that sit at ambient temp, around 65, for 16 hours or so and then pitched it Monday morning. I'm fermenting the beer at 80 degrees. I've been checking the pH levels with a calibrated meter and it appears to have stopped around 3.88 (it was 3.9 last night). So now what? Draw off some beer, mix in a couple of capsules, and add it back in? Was my initial starter too cold?

Edited - went back several pages in the thread and read previous responses. Going to rehydrate a couple capsules and pitch again.
 
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tizoc said:
Yes, both times I took a measurement the beer was at 20C. The probiotic I used is not the one I mentioned I can find here, it is pure L. Plantarum (Lp299v).

It is bottled now, once it has carbonated I will open a bottle to give it a try and separate a bit, degas it and measure again.
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Update: Just opened a bottle to see how it was carbonating, separated about 30ml and degassed it.

The measurement I just did gave 3.24 pH (was 3.65 when bottled and the day before).

Maybe it was because I added 2 more litres of saved unhopped wort from that batch to prime the beer before bottling and that dilution lowered the IBUs, no idea, but in the end it reached the pH I expected.

I smell and taste a little bit of diacetyl, other than that the level of sourness feels about right.
 
chieftain said:
So I brewed what I intend to be a sour IPA this past Sunday, and pitched a fresh slurry of Omega's Tropical Yeast. Made a sour starter with 2 Swanson capsules (no calcium carbonate though). Let that sit at ambient temp, around 65, for 16 hours or so and then pitched it Monday morning. I'm fermenting the beer at 80 degrees. I've been checking the pH levels with a calibrated meter and it appears to have stopped around 3.88 (it was 3.9 last night). So now what? Draw off some beer, mix in a couple of capsules, and add it back in? Was my initial starter too cold?

Edited - went back several pages in the thread and read previous responses. Going to rehydrate a couple capsules and pitch again.
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Appears I'm out of luck - checked this morning and pH is at 3.85 (freshly calibrated meter), which seems like a negligible drop. These are fresh capsules, so that doesnt seem to be the problem.
 
chieftain said:
Appears I'm out of luck - checked this morning and pH is at 3.85 (freshly calibrated meter), which seems like a negligible drop. These are fresh capsules, so that doesnt seem to be the problem.
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That's a bummer.
Dead Lacto? Was the starter cloudy / did it have an aroma (besides wort)?
Zero hops right, including the yeast pitch?
 
RPh_Guy said:
That's a bummer.
Dead Lacto? Was the starter cloudy / did it have an aroma (besides wort)?
Zero hops right, including the yeast pitch?
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I don't think it was the lacto. I just got the Swanson's in the mail, and the expiration date is Feb 2021. The starter was not cloudy, as I recall. I don't think it had much of an aroma either. Zero hops in the boil, but I did notice some crud on my immersion chiller before I dropped it in the kettle...I didn't clean it off. Could the lacto be that sensitive?
 
chieftain said:
Worth procuring another source of lacto and adding it to the fermenter? Maybe Goodbelly? I really like the uncarbed samples I've tried, fermenting hot really brought out the pineapple in the yeast.
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Yeah, go for it.
 
Couldn't help myself and I just had to brew with co-souring method last Friday instead of pale ale with Kveik which I had already planned for Friday. The idea was to brew Berliner Weisse type fruit sour using Lactobacillus plantarum. Anyway I took a sample today after 48h of fermentation and Vermont yeast had almost finished the beer 1.032 --> 1.008. Target FG is 1.005. Because this is my first time brewing a sour I don't know if everything is going OK with lacto. I tasted the sample and there was some sour aroma and sour taste but very mild one. I have a PH meter and of course I tested the sample and got PH reading of 3.76. Unfortunately I forgot to measure my wort PH when I pitched yeast and lacto so I don't know what was my PH starting point. Mash PH was 5.23. Somebody said earlier in this thread that PH meter isn't essential tool and I'm planning to rely my taste buds. The question is, should the sour taste be more powerful after 48h or does Lactobacillus plantarum continue sour the beer? I'm going to add some passionfruit puree tomorrow and I'm wondering should I add one more Lactobacillus plantarum capsule in to the FV.
 
Be careful with passionfruit - it tends to throw a lot of sulfur (my current batch has a definite 'burnt match' smell to it). You might need to put some copper in with it (I haven't tried it, but have read about others doing it).

I can't see another capsule making a difference - Lacto reproduces so quickly that your original capsule should now be many times the population of the original. If it stops souring, there must be an environmental (i.e. in the beer) reason. I'd expect it keep souring though - there are still fermentables left and not too much alcohol. You didn't use any hops, right?
 
Thanks for the heads up with passionfruit. My original plan was to go easy with that anyway.

No hops at all in this recipe. Just Pilsner and wheat malt. I guess the patience is the key as always in brewing. Just have to wait and see. I know the aroma is going in right direction since I have a brewery near by and they brew awesome plain sour with just wheat, pilsner and lacto. I got the same aroma from the sample I took today. The sour taste just wasn't there, it was so mild at this point.
 
I'm thinking I should recommends higher bacteria pitch rates because some folks are having trouble with achieve souring. Anyone have thoughts on this?

The M said:
should the sour taste be more powerful after 48h or does Lactobacillus plantarum continue sour the beer?
Click to expand...
It should continue to sour.
 
RPh_Guy said:
I'm thinking I should recommends higher bacteria pitch rates because some folks are having trouble with achieve souring. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

It seems to mostly be an issue with capsules. I can't remember reading about issues with goodbelly or sourpitch. Maybe there are consistency issues (handling etc.) with capsules?
 
Gnomebrewer said:
It seems to mostly be an issue with capsules. I can't remember reading about issues with goodbelly or sourpitch. Maybe there are consistency issues (handling etc.) with capsules?
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Sounds like it. Maybe a small starter should be suggested when using capsules.
 
OK, thanks guys for your replies. Let's wait and see what happens. I'll report results back next week
 
Quick update. Pitched contents of two Lactobacillus plantarum capsules together with 2lbs of passionfruit puree on Monday. Today I took a sample and it's souring alright. Aroma is fantastic, sour and passionfruit. Very clean. Tastewise it's way more sour than last Sunday but maybe not as sour as I would like it to be. Took also a PH reading which was 3.38. Before I took a sample I was ready to dump the batch but now when the beer has the sour taste I'm going to keg it next week. I'm not sure if those two extra capsules made any difference to PH and sour taste because I started to think that maybe it's the passion pure which has lowered the PH and made the beer more sour. Any thought on this?
 
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Oops, it's a typo alright :) Meant to write 3.38.

I'm really exited although I suspect that the capsules might not work 100%. I'm already planning next co-souring batch and might try that Lallemand Sour pitch. RPh_Guy about the lacto starter described in wiki. How long does it take the starter to be complete? And should I decant starter somehow or pitch it as it is? Probably going to try Sour Pitch next but I'm curious to find out if my Lactobacillus plantarum capsules are still good for another go.
 
I have a few bits and pieces laying around so I thought I would try to make an easy 1 gal sour. Please critique this recipe:

1 lb Sparkling Amber DME
8oz cracked Rye (for partial mash)
Safale T58 yeast
L. acidophilus and bulgaricus probiotic capsules

Make a normal wort
Pitch the yeast
Pitch probiotics after 3-4 days

Do you think the rye would go nice with the sour?
Do you think it should use some fruit juice rather than the rye?
 
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@The M 24hs worked very well for me (1 expired capsule in 300ml of post-boil wort from brewday) and it was probably ready before that, bacteria reproduces much faster than yeast. If you use calcium carbonate in your starter as recommended, leave the starter alone for a few hours so that the calcium carbonate decants, and leave that layer of solids behind (pitch only the liquid).
 
Thx tizoc. I'll give a starter a shot with my capsules. One more question about the starter. Will the layer of solids drop down like yeast?
 
Yes. It is recommended here that you swirl the starter occasionally, and if you do, then you will have to stop a few hours before you plan to pitch your lacto starter. The calcium carbonate will drop and form a layer of solids at the bottom (similar to yeast as you said).

Btw, smell your starter, you will probably notice that the aroma changed (in a good way, not sure how to describe it, because I guess it also depends on your lacto, but you will know when you smell it), thats one way of knowing that the lacto is doing its thing. It will also be hazy.
 
Thank you, I really appreciate it 👍 I always smell and taste my yeast starters before I pitch, so very good advice with this method also.

Couple more questions. I assume that keeping the lacto starter in room temp is ok? I have a temp controlled fermentation fridge so I can keep the temp range where ever it's needed. Also is there any advantage or disadvantage using stir plate with lacto starter?
 
The M said:
Oops, it's a typo alright :) Meant to write 3.38.

I'm really exited although I suspect that the capsules might not work 100%. I'm already planning next co-souring batch and might try that Lallemand Sour pitch. RPh_Guy about the lacto starter described in wiki. How long does it take the starter to be complete? And should I decant starter somehow or pitch it as it is? Probably going to try Sour Pitch next but I'm curious to find out if my Lactobacillus plantarum capsules are still good for another go.
Click to expand...
Caps work great when they're fresh. Otherwise they can be inconsistent.
The speed at which Lacto multiplies depends entirely on the temperature. You may reach peak cell density after a few hours if its warm, or maybe 1-2 days at room temp.
Generally you don't want to pitch the chalk layer at the bottom, but it's really not a problem if you do; it'll make it more sour.
GeneDaniels1963 said:
8oz cracked Rye (for partial mash)
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You need malt to convert the rye, assuming it's not malted.
GeneDaniels1963 said:
L. acidophilus and bulgaricus probiotic capsules
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I wouldn't use this culture. You really need L. plantarum.
duncan_disorderly said:
Have you seen this new product from Lallemand, Wildbrew Philly Sour?

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...sour-explore-the-yeast-biodiversity-universe/
A non sacch yeast that ferments the beer and also produces lactic acid - at 20-25 deg C, no-co-pitching required.
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I included lactic acid yeat in a comparison table here:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer#Comparison_with_other_souring_methodsIMO the main issues are that you're locked into that particular yeast flavor, and you can't control the acidity. They also haven't been distributing their lactic acid yeast in home brew amounts either (it's $250 for 500g of this culture).
0.1-0.4% lactic acid is not very much.
The M said:
Couple more questions. I assume that keeping the lacto starter in room temp is ok? I have a temp controlled fermentation fridge so I can keep the temp range where ever it's needed. Also is there any advantage or disadvantage using stir plate with lacto starter?
Click to expand...
Try to keep the starter above 70F or 21C. About 90-95F (33-35C) would be ideal if want it done very quickly.
I've never bothered with a stir plate for Lacto starters, but theoretically it would be helpful.

Sorry for the late replies. I've been working on my site.
 
RPh_Guy said:
I included lactic acid yeast in a comparison table here:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer#Comparison_with_other_souring_methodsIMO the main issues are that you're locked into that particular yeast flavor, and you can't control the acidity. They also haven't been distributing their lactic acid yeast in home brew amounts either (it's $250 for 500g of this culture).
0.1-0.4% lactic acid is not very much.
Click to expand...

Thanks, interesting. Lallemand says it's selling it in 500g and 11g packs though. No doubt an expensive and inflexible method, but I'll probably try it once at least to see if I like the results. Lallemand says final pH is 3.2 - 3.4, iirc, so that sounds like enough lactic acid to me?
 
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duncan_disorderly said:
Thanks, interesting. Lallemand says it's selling it in 500g and 11g packs though. No doubt an expensive and inflexible method, but I'll probably try it once at least to see if I like the results. Lallemand says final pH is 3.2 - 3.4, iirc, so that sounds like enough lactic acid to me?
Click to expand...
The pH doesn't determine how much acid is present.
 
Well, I decided to jump in with what I have. I made the wort last night and then emptied 5 capsules of the probotics and yeast. Then for good measure I added some homemade kefir. It is going like crazy this morning.

I have no idea how it will turn out, but its only a few bucks worth of ingredients, so I am willing to see what happens.
 
Oh, and I forgot to say that I will add a gruit tea (wormwood and mugwort) after fermentation has slowed down. I don't want to take any chance killing the bugs.
 

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